Originally posted by dogs24:
Jeezus with the personal attacks!! What does it take to have a civil conversation here?!
Red -- This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my 'ability' or success as a gambler. Since you brought it up, I've made 7 dimes in the last 23 days. How's that for success? Not too shabby, I hope you'll agree. That doesn't change my opinion about books and the people who operate them ONE IOTA. Even if I were a professional gambler who made his entire income on gambling, I would hate the books for exploiting the weaknesses of the 95% of gamblers who lose their shirts and families and lives.
Hows that for success?
Who cares that you have made 7 dimes in 23 days. Sucess is defined by long term profits, not a quick run.You said in your original post that you were down overall and you were addicted. Your reasoning for disliking books is flawed big time. In my opinion, you are an addicted degenerate gambler who is happy that the books got hit because gambling has screwed your life.
Too bad. Stop gambling. Your view is going to be me in the minority. Maybe you can go to Congress and speak in front of them about how bad gambling is and you can help them ban gambling.
You are up 7 dimes in the last 23 days?? Hmmmm....
dogs24
Certifiably Crazy
posted September 18, 2003 01:35 AM
Wow...
Not a good run at all...
Lost $4K tonight, $5.2K on Sunday, and another $15K two weeks ago (Thursday the 4th, in Sirbet's less than honest casino).
Wow.
Sure there were winnings sandwiched in between the massive losses, but if ever there was a time to step back, take a break, breathe and live a normal life...this is the time.
This is a *LOT* of money.
Posts: 70 | Registered: July 09, 2003
dogs24
Certifiably Crazy
posted September 18, 2003 01:35 AM
Wow...
Not a good run at all...
Lost $4K tonight, $5.2K on Sunday, and another $15K two weeks ago (Thursday the 4th, in Sirbet's less than honest casino).
Wow.
Sure there were winnings sandwiched in between the massive losses, but if ever there was a time to step back, take a break, breathe and live a normal life...this is the time.
This is a *LOT* of money.
Posts: 70 | Registered: July 09, 2003
being that you think that these books are horrible and provide no service of value. would it be alright if someone nuked vegas.
you are more than entitled to your opininos as if everyone else. but gambling is one of the few things in life where the stakes are there in black and white before you play. you know if you take the bears -3 for 100 bucks and they win by 2 you loose. can't say the same about the stock market they lie and cheat to bilk investors out of money. do all people who have pensions know the risks. did people in the 50's know smoking was bad. that pills given to help have healthy babies gave birth defects. that insulation would cause cancer. that faulty tires would blow out and kill peoples famlies.
all of these things the consumer was unaware of the stakes before they got involved.
in gambling you know the stakes, risks, and rewards.
and lets not forget the most important thing of all is the freedom of CHOICE if you think its bad then don't do it.
Quote from 2 Live Crew
What is this?? Is this not America? This is not China! This is not
Russia! This is not the place where they brought down the wall, this is
America! We have the right to say what we want to say, we have the right
to do what we want to do, and what I do in my house,
you might not do in your house!
So what I do in my house is my business! And the simple fact
of it all is that we are BONDED by the First Amendment! We have the
freedom of EXPRESSION! We have the freedom of CHOICE! And you,
Chinese, black, green, purple, Jew,
YOU have the right..........
So all you right-wingers, left-
wingers, bigots, Communists, there IS a place for you in this world!
Because this is the land of the FREE, the home of the BRAVE!
(makes me feel all warm and patriotic inside
)
by reading your agument you would say the crack dealer is horrible but the abuser is not at fault. the beer company is responsible for people who drink and drive.
gambling is done for entertainment by many people and if you want to make a living at it good luck. but i have no problems looing in the mirror
my 2 cents on your 2 cents
you are more than entitled to your opininos as if everyone else. but gambling is one of the few things in life where the stakes are there in black and white before you play. you know if you take the bears -3 for 100 bucks and they win by 2 you loose. can't say the same about the stock market they lie and cheat to bilk investors out of money. do all people who have pensions know the risks. did people in the 50's know smoking was bad. that pills given to help have healthy babies gave birth defects. that insulation would cause cancer. that faulty tires would blow out and kill peoples famlies.
all of these things the consumer was unaware of the stakes before they got involved.
in gambling you know the stakes, risks, and rewards.
and lets not forget the most important thing of all is the freedom of CHOICE if you think its bad then don't do it.
Quote from 2 Live Crew
What is this?? Is this not America? This is not China! This is not
Russia! This is not the place where they brought down the wall, this is
America! We have the right to say what we want to say, we have the right
to do what we want to do, and what I do in my house,
you might not do in your house!
So what I do in my house is my business! And the simple fact
of it all is that we are BONDED by the First Amendment! We have the
freedom of EXPRESSION! We have the freedom of CHOICE! And you,
Chinese, black, green, purple, Jew,
YOU have the right..........
So all you right-wingers, left-
wingers, bigots, Communists, there IS a place for you in this world!
Because this is the land of the FREE, the home of the BRAVE!
(makes me feel all warm and patriotic inside
by reading your agument you would say the crack dealer is horrible but the abuser is not at fault. the beer company is responsible for people who drink and drive.
gambling is done for entertainment by many people and if you want to make a living at it good luck. but i have no problems looing in the mirror
my 2 cents on your 2 cents
Dogs-
The big difference here is that the extortions are forcing the books into the situation. The books are not forcing the gamblers to play (tempting, yes, forcing no).
Gambling is legal in Nevada, Atlantic City and a few other places in the US. As long as the books in Costa Rica maintain a level of integrity: pay off players and honor the bets, there shouldn't be a problem.
What the extortionist are doing interferes with the ISP's, hijacks computers of unwitting users, etc. This is a much more serious crime than providing gambling services.
The big difference here is that the extortions are forcing the books into the situation. The books are not forcing the gamblers to play (tempting, yes, forcing no).
Gambling is legal in Nevada, Atlantic City and a few other places in the US. As long as the books in Costa Rica maintain a level of integrity: pay off players and honor the bets, there shouldn't be a problem.
What the extortionist are doing interferes with the ISP's, hijacks computers of unwitting users, etc. This is a much more serious crime than providing gambling services.
Dogs
Let me start by saying I have come to the prescription for many years now, as I find alot of the post entertaining and sometimes I learn something new. Although I have never posted in the past because I work in the sportsbook industry and I find these forums counter productive for my business.
But your post really bugs me. As I have been insides many of the sportsbooks and know many of the owners and managers of these books. You say they are dishonest, cheating, heartless and are scumbags. How many of the sportsbooks owners do you know? And exactly what do you mean by dishonest and how do they cheat you? And how do you know they don't care about their customers.
I personally talk to 50 to a 100 customers a day and many of them are my friends and would be my friends even if they don't play at my sportsbook. None of these guys are compulsive gamblers as very few of our customers are. I have come across some people I suspect of having a gambling problems. Usually they have more than just a gambling problem. They have a problem of being rude and blaming others for their problems. WE show these peolple the door. But because they have a problem they make up names and find a way to continue gambling.
In your post you say I am like many of you who also have gambling problems. Maybe it makes you feel better to think many of these readers are like you and have a problem but I have 20 years of firsthand experience to tell you. You are not the majority of these people most people do this for entertainment and don't regret playing one bit. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AND IT IS NOT MY FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me start by saying I have come to the prescription for many years now, as I find alot of the post entertaining and sometimes I learn something new. Although I have never posted in the past because I work in the sportsbook industry and I find these forums counter productive for my business.
But your post really bugs me. As I have been insides many of the sportsbooks and know many of the owners and managers of these books. You say they are dishonest, cheating, heartless and are scumbags. How many of the sportsbooks owners do you know? And exactly what do you mean by dishonest and how do they cheat you? And how do you know they don't care about their customers.
I personally talk to 50 to a 100 customers a day and many of them are my friends and would be my friends even if they don't play at my sportsbook. None of these guys are compulsive gamblers as very few of our customers are. I have come across some people I suspect of having a gambling problems. Usually they have more than just a gambling problem. They have a problem of being rude and blaming others for their problems. WE show these peolple the door. But because they have a problem they make up names and find a way to continue gambling.
In your post you say I am like many of you who also have gambling problems. Maybe it makes you feel better to think many of these readers are like you and have a problem but I have 20 years of firsthand experience to tell you. You are not the majority of these people most people do this for entertainment and don't regret playing one bit. YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AND IT IS NOT MY FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all, I'd like to commend ballsofblue & zone136 for two excellent responses to this thread...
dogs24,
I don't know what to say to you than what has already been said. I truly feel sorry for you and I can actually feel your pain. Having been addicted before, I know a little of what you are going through.
However, I did become a "RESPONSIBLE" gambler a long time ago, but only after I hit rock bottom.
My mother had to fly from NY to Ga, where I was in College and she pawned a very expensive ring of hers to pay off a 10k gambling debt that I had as a student at age 19.
While on her way to the pawn shop, she fell down the stairs of my condominium and hurt herself badly.
That was MY rock bottom that I hope doesn't have to get any worse for you...
It's all the same, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, or gambling.
ONLY you can decide when to take control of it because addicts have lost control...
Clearly, as some have pointed out, you are still in DENIAL bigtime. You are the hardest addict to cure because you are also very intelligent and your defense mechanisms are quite advanced...
You "rationalize" and "intellectualize" throughout most of your posts without probably knowing that you are doing so...
I strongly suggest you get help before you lose more than you have already. I have lost too many friends to addictions and you seem to be close to the edge...
If GA isn't working, try something else.
I am always available too by email or phone if you want to talk privately about this...
THE SHRINK
dogs24,
I don't know what to say to you than what has already been said. I truly feel sorry for you and I can actually feel your pain. Having been addicted before, I know a little of what you are going through.
However, I did become a "RESPONSIBLE" gambler a long time ago, but only after I hit rock bottom.
My mother had to fly from NY to Ga, where I was in College and she pawned a very expensive ring of hers to pay off a 10k gambling debt that I had as a student at age 19.
While on her way to the pawn shop, she fell down the stairs of my condominium and hurt herself badly.
That was MY rock bottom that I hope doesn't have to get any worse for you...
It's all the same, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, or gambling.
ONLY you can decide when to take control of it because addicts have lost control...
Clearly, as some have pointed out, you are still in DENIAL bigtime. You are the hardest addict to cure because you are also very intelligent and your defense mechanisms are quite advanced...
You "rationalize" and "intellectualize" throughout most of your posts without probably knowing that you are doing so...
I strongly suggest you get help before you lose more than you have already. I have lost too many friends to addictions and you seem to be close to the edge...
If GA isn't working, try something else.
I am always available too by email or phone if you want to talk privately about this...
THE SHRINK
Frankly, I think Dogs24 made a solid post and contribution to this forum. With that said, I disagree with most of what he wrote particulary the part where he states that he is "absolutely thrilled" that the books were attacked.
Dogs24, most of the books are scumbags that feed on the weaknesses of others but they do not deserved to be attacked. I certainly feel a modicum of sympathy for the honest books and NONE for the shyster operators but NONE deserve to be attacked. To be "thrilled" b/c you view these organizations as leeches is a joke. Look in the mirror. You've admitted to be a compulsive gambler so unfortunately, it's individuals like you who keep these folks in business.
Sure I contribute to it as well but my time as a sports gambler is slowly coming to an end. I left for a while then returned when I discovered the Rx and now will be leaving fairly soon despite the fact that overall I have not lost one red cent since discovering the Rx. Sports wagering is a game that I no longer get much enjoyment from that requires too much time to beat. I'll probably stick to my football pools/final four pools, fantasy football/basketball, and dumb Gamblers Ave. contests where you are assigned teams randomly who must achive randomly determined results for a payout
less for the gambling but more for the social aspects of those activites (competition among friends, smack talking, etc.). The days of me wagering on individual events has almost passed. It requires to much effort for a recreational activity to ensure that you have an edge or can at least be competitive.
You on the other hand, please get help from somewhere so you do not contribute to the profit of the organizations that you view with so much disdain.
Dogs24, most of the books are scumbags that feed on the weaknesses of others but they do not deserved to be attacked. I certainly feel a modicum of sympathy for the honest books and NONE for the shyster operators but NONE deserve to be attacked. To be "thrilled" b/c you view these organizations as leeches is a joke. Look in the mirror. You've admitted to be a compulsive gambler so unfortunately, it's individuals like you who keep these folks in business.
Sure I contribute to it as well but my time as a sports gambler is slowly coming to an end. I left for a while then returned when I discovered the Rx and now will be leaving fairly soon despite the fact that overall I have not lost one red cent since discovering the Rx. Sports wagering is a game that I no longer get much enjoyment from that requires too much time to beat. I'll probably stick to my football pools/final four pools, fantasy football/basketball, and dumb Gamblers Ave. contests where you are assigned teams randomly who must achive randomly determined results for a payout
You on the other hand, please get help from somewhere so you do not contribute to the profit of the organizations that you view with so much disdain.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by THE SHRINK:
First of all, I'd like to commend ballofblue & zone136 for two excellent responses to this thread...
dogs24,
I don't know what to say to you than what has already been said. I truly feel sorry for you and I can actually feel your pain. Having been addicted before, I know a little of what you are going through.
However, I did become a "RESPONSIBLE" gambler a long time ago, but only after I hit rock bottom.
It's all the same, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, or gambling.
ONLY you can decide when to take control of ir because addicts have lost control...
Clearly, as some have pointed out, you are still in DENIAL bigtime. You are the hardest addict to cure because you are also very intelligent and your defense mechanisms are quite advanced...
You "rationalize" and "intellectualize" throughout most of your posts without probably knowing that you are doing so...
I strongly suggest you get help before you lose more than you have already. I have lost too mnay friends to addictions and you seem to be close to the edge...
If GA isn't working, try something else.
I am always available too by email or phone if you want to talk privately about this...
THE SHRINK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The DR is IN!
First of all, I'd like to commend ballofblue & zone136 for two excellent responses to this thread...
dogs24,
I don't know what to say to you than what has already been said. I truly feel sorry for you and I can actually feel your pain. Having been addicted before, I know a little of what you are going through.
However, I did become a "RESPONSIBLE" gambler a long time ago, but only after I hit rock bottom.
It's all the same, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, or gambling.
ONLY you can decide when to take control of ir because addicts have lost control...
Clearly, as some have pointed out, you are still in DENIAL bigtime. You are the hardest addict to cure because you are also very intelligent and your defense mechanisms are quite advanced...
You "rationalize" and "intellectualize" throughout most of your posts without probably knowing that you are doing so...
I strongly suggest you get help before you lose more than you have already. I have lost too mnay friends to addictions and you seem to be close to the edge...
If GA isn't working, try something else.
I am always available too by email or phone if you want to talk privately about this...
THE SHRINK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The DR is IN!
Reading Hollywood's notes it was 30k to go up to 40k on Sunday. If it's the mafia that's involved as was quoted in this article, then Hollywood could be down a long time. I'm not an expert on organized crime but I've watched the Sopranos
http://www.vnunet.com/News/1127021
http://www.vnunet.com/News/1127021
Dogs,
Yours was a good post and it was a good read, but I agree with everyone who says you are still in denial.
When people say that gambling, alcohol, drugs, and guns are bad, they are taking a convenient escape from the real problem which lies within.
Typically this kind of logical myopia comes from older women who have to find some sort of excuse to explain away their long-time husband's behavior who they are (or were) in love with. To admit the truth -ie. that he was weak and couldn't cut it in the Darwinian dog-eat-dog world would be so painful to her that she would have trouble finding any sort of meaning for her remaining years. After all, it would mean that her value in this life was nothing more than to be the object of desire for a loser, an "E" wolf, say, the "A"s, "B"s, "C"s, and "D"s all choosing and finding better women.
And since there are lots and lots of "E" wolves and "E" wolves' wives out there, they find solace in this fable that it is some external vice at fault and not the lack of ability of their beloved husbands who they want so desperately to admire. And hearing it from many others just serves to support the theory. Psychologically they are so far gone that they have long lost interest in determining the truth. Feeling that warmth and comfort is much more important.
If you want to solve your problems, you have to understand their psychological underpinnings and you need to develop a true love for truth and reality. Playing con games with yourself will only dig you into a deeper hole and get you more enemies among strong and successful people. If, on the other hand, you are satisfied among "E" wolves knowing you have to get out of the way any time a higher ranking wolf crosses your path, then just keep thinking the way you are thinking. It's your call really -- head up high, preparing for battle, or in the sand where it all seems safe.
[This message was edited by Darryl Parsons on September 24, 2003 at 07:33 PM.]
Yours was a good post and it was a good read, but I agree with everyone who says you are still in denial.
When people say that gambling, alcohol, drugs, and guns are bad, they are taking a convenient escape from the real problem which lies within.
Typically this kind of logical myopia comes from older women who have to find some sort of excuse to explain away their long-time husband's behavior who they are (or were) in love with. To admit the truth -ie. that he was weak and couldn't cut it in the Darwinian dog-eat-dog world would be so painful to her that she would have trouble finding any sort of meaning for her remaining years. After all, it would mean that her value in this life was nothing more than to be the object of desire for a loser, an "E" wolf, say, the "A"s, "B"s, "C"s, and "D"s all choosing and finding better women.
And since there are lots and lots of "E" wolves and "E" wolves' wives out there, they find solace in this fable that it is some external vice at fault and not the lack of ability of their beloved husbands who they want so desperately to admire. And hearing it from many others just serves to support the theory. Psychologically they are so far gone that they have long lost interest in determining the truth. Feeling that warmth and comfort is much more important.
If you want to solve your problems, you have to understand their psychological underpinnings and you need to develop a true love for truth and reality. Playing con games with yourself will only dig you into a deeper hole and get you more enemies among strong and successful people. If, on the other hand, you are satisfied among "E" wolves knowing you have to get out of the way any time a higher ranking wolf crosses your path, then just keep thinking the way you are thinking. It's your call really -- head up high, preparing for battle, or in the sand where it all seems safe.
[This message was edited by Darryl Parsons on September 24, 2003 at 07:33 PM.]
Dog:
Books, arms factorys, porno? are they not legit bussiness?
Come on Dog dont blame others for your problems! Many people on this forum will agree with me that they have made money out of sportbooks! Money to buy personal things to get a better way of living !!!
Yes you are right is not the coolest thing in the world getting money from other people weakness but some bussiness are like that.
Besides I agree with LANDER (they are among the coolest guys I've met in ANY profession)
some of this guys are really nice people Jimi or Dennis at Heritage sports.
So yes they look for your money but so what?? Beat them and get some cash back.
So my final respond is SPORTBOOKS are great places to really enjoy the thrill of a game!!
Look for a good one become a VIP guy and invest some of that cash $$$$ you got from them.
Books, arms factorys, porno? are they not legit bussiness?
Come on Dog dont blame others for your problems! Many people on this forum will agree with me that they have made money out of sportbooks! Money to buy personal things to get a better way of living !!!
Yes you are right is not the coolest thing in the world getting money from other people weakness but some bussiness are like that.
Besides I agree with LANDER (they are among the coolest guys I've met in ANY profession)
some of this guys are really nice people Jimi or Dennis at Heritage sports.
So yes they look for your money but so what?? Beat them and get some cash back.
So my final respond is SPORTBOOKS are great places to really enjoy the thrill of a game!!
Look for a good one become a VIP guy and invest some of that cash $$$$ you got from them.
This is indeed a very good thread. I see very well thought responses as well.
While I can relate to dogs24's arguments, I must essentially disagree. To me, it all has to do with personal responsibility. As a grown-up human being we have the power to choose which things are of benefit for us and which things are pernicious for our well being. This has been stated by other readers before.
I can see Shrink's post and I must also agree with his post.
Now, I believe gambling is an essential part of our human nature. We gamble every day. We gamble on everything. Gambling goes hand in hand with faith and hope, as well. When you gamble, you truly have faith that events will turn out to be as you predicted them.
When you take a new job, you're gambling on a new, better chance to generate profit for you and your family.
America as a nation, was formed by people that left behind everything they knew and everything they owned for a better future. And althought NOBODY could guarantee our ancestors that America was going to become their land of freedom and opportunity, they still had faith on their instincts and the power of their dreams. They gambled, and their bet was on a better future. Every inmigrant to America has been a gambler by nature. To gamble is within every fighter. Gambling is part of our human nature.
But also part of this human nature is a morbid inclination to enjoy other peoples' misfortune. It's a form of some obscure satisfaction to see somebody else's pain, sorrow and grieve. Simply because the pain is not being inflicted upon us. And taking these things into consideration, I can perfectly understand the point of view of Dogs24.
Dogs24:
I respect you for being sincere enough to admit you get thrilled by these later attacks to many offshore books. I can understand your arguments, although I do not share them.
But please make no mistake, we're not "dishonest, cheating, heartless scumbags". We're legitimate business men. And I say legitimate, becasue we provide a service. A service that it's your choice to use or not.
It is our obligation to offer the best service we can. It's our commitment to offer excellence as the only possible standard of operation. It's our obligation to pay winners, swiftly and unfailingly.
It's not our obligation to help you control your impulses. It's not our obligation to educate you on how to beat the game. As a poster has already said, sports gambling is one more game. It's YOUR obligation to learn the rules and find a system to beat it. If you can't, you might as well look for another source of revenue. But never forget it's your PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to assume the full consequences of your acts.
Will
Hollywood International
[This message was edited by Hollywood Sportsbook on September 24, 2003 at 08:36 PM.]
While I can relate to dogs24's arguments, I must essentially disagree. To me, it all has to do with personal responsibility. As a grown-up human being we have the power to choose which things are of benefit for us and which things are pernicious for our well being. This has been stated by other readers before.
I can see Shrink's post and I must also agree with his post.
Now, I believe gambling is an essential part of our human nature. We gamble every day. We gamble on everything. Gambling goes hand in hand with faith and hope, as well. When you gamble, you truly have faith that events will turn out to be as you predicted them.
When you take a new job, you're gambling on a new, better chance to generate profit for you and your family.
America as a nation, was formed by people that left behind everything they knew and everything they owned for a better future. And althought NOBODY could guarantee our ancestors that America was going to become their land of freedom and opportunity, they still had faith on their instincts and the power of their dreams. They gambled, and their bet was on a better future. Every inmigrant to America has been a gambler by nature. To gamble is within every fighter. Gambling is part of our human nature.
But also part of this human nature is a morbid inclination to enjoy other peoples' misfortune. It's a form of some obscure satisfaction to see somebody else's pain, sorrow and grieve. Simply because the pain is not being inflicted upon us. And taking these things into consideration, I can perfectly understand the point of view of Dogs24.
Dogs24:
I respect you for being sincere enough to admit you get thrilled by these later attacks to many offshore books. I can understand your arguments, although I do not share them.
But please make no mistake, we're not "dishonest, cheating, heartless scumbags". We're legitimate business men. And I say legitimate, becasue we provide a service. A service that it's your choice to use or not.
It is our obligation to offer the best service we can. It's our commitment to offer excellence as the only possible standard of operation. It's our obligation to pay winners, swiftly and unfailingly.
It's not our obligation to help you control your impulses. It's not our obligation to educate you on how to beat the game. As a poster has already said, sports gambling is one more game. It's YOUR obligation to learn the rules and find a system to beat it. If you can't, you might as well look for another source of revenue. But never forget it's your PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to assume the full consequences of your acts.
Will
Hollywood International
[This message was edited by Hollywood Sportsbook on September 24, 2003 at 08:36 PM.]
I didn't read this thread for the last 36 hours or so because I was so disillusioned with the first few responses it received immediately after I posted my tome. People were making uncalled for personal attacks, were drawing conclusions that were completely off-base with what I had written, etc. I just checked the latest posts now though, and I'm happy to see that The last several responses have been excellent, well thought-out and cordial. It's more than a bit disheartening that not a single person here agrees with me (!) but I greatly appreciate the articulate and respectful manner with which people like Will, Shrink, Darryl Parsons etc. made their points. Thank you.
It's 4 AM and I'm exhausted, but I'll respond to a few of the pressing points people raised...
First and foremost, many of you have emphasized and re-emphasized the point that I am "in denial" and am unable or unwilling to acknowledge personal responsibility for my own
problems and choices. That is so off-base it's comical! Let me reiterate here, for at least the third time in this thread: _I AM FULLY AWARE OF MY ADDICTION TO GAMBLING, AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS_. Okay?! I never denied that. I've said that from the get-go.
The irony of this accusation is that one of the most annoying things I found about GA is that people would always blame the "disease" or the "addiction" for their misdeeds. That always pissed me off to no end, and I used to raise that in meetings, much to the ire of my fellow gamblers. My point, then, and now, is that as an adult, YOU (or I) am fully responsible for your actions. No matter how tempting the prospects of engaging in an activity, as a sane adult with full control of your mental faculties, any choice you make is yours to live with. Calling gambling addiction a 'disease' is a cop-out because it absolves yourself of responsibility to a degree and places the onus on the mysterious 'disease' plaguing and taking control of your soul. Cancer is a disease, AIDS is a disease, because they eat away at healthy cells and cause you to die, and there's nothing you can do to repel their detrimental effects. But gambling? No matter how strong the urge, it still requires a conscious decision to go to the track/casino/sportsbook and physically place the wager -- an action that any adult can stop himself from doing. Anyone who DOES choose to make that choice has to be able to own up to it afterwards and not blame 'the book', 'society', the disease etc.
I have _NEVER_ denied that all of the time and money I've spent and wasted is my fault, my responsibility.
My point, again, for the thousandth time, is not that I BLAME sportsbooks for the choices *I* make, but the very fact that someone chooses to go into the bookmaking business, to make money off other people's urges, to exploit those who are not able to control themselves, to take advantage of the hotheadedness and uneven temperment and tendency to chase and all of the other psychological predispositions common to thrill-seeking humans...says something very negative about the individual. That's what my entire point is: not that I blame them, not that I'm in denial, not that I don't take responsibility for *MY* actions and *MY* choices, but that the facilitators and enablers -- those who make conscious, clearheaded decisions to make a livelihood over the failures and weaknesses of their fellow man are worthy of scorn. Whether the bookmaker is earning his profit off the vig or making money when the losing proposition gets the lion share of the action -- in either case, he only wins when his clients lose. And 95% of them do. And most of those chase their losses and hurt themselves and their families badly. We all know the terribly dangerous, spiraling effects of gambling. Bookies are not RESPONSIBLE for the choices adults make, but by providing an opportunity to continue the cycle, they perpetuate the problem.
Most people who gamble do not gamble responsibly. That's a primary motivation for going into the bookmaking industry. If most people who bet bet only amounts they could afford to lose, and the ratio of long-term winners to losers were even, bookmaking would not be such an alluring proposition. It is alluring, and sexy and profitable because people lose. And choosing to make your living off other people's lost finances and lives is exactly akin to being a drug dealer, as far as I'm concerned. No, the dealer isn't responsible for the choice an adult makes to shoot himself up full of crack and heroin, but he too knows that once the junkie gets one hit, he's liable to want more and more until his life is destroyed. Hey -- he's an adult, he made his own choice, right!? Preying on the foibles of man and then claiming innocence is, in my mind, despicable.
Valdosta, Pancho, Le Bud -- You brought up my finances, which really have absolutely nothing to do with my rant. I am up close to 7 dimes over the past 25 days. I've done well this year, despite individual days of enormous losses. I still hate gambling and bookies.
Java -- Obviously I don't justify what the hackers did. That's just cruel. I'm not happy there are hackers out there ruining people's businesses -- all I did was admit that in a black corner of my heart I feel justice was done to people who I despise for choosing to make a living this way.
A lot of you have brought up analogies to other industries. I'm not going to answer the stupid question about whether I think gun manufacturers are to blame for murders -- if you bother to read what I wrote in this post and in several previous ones, you'll know how I feel about adults taking responsibility for their actions. But whether purveyors of gambling can be compared to purveyors of other vices depends on the nature of the vice and its impact on humanity, in my mind. In essence, I compare the proportion of good a particular 'vice' does for humanity vs. the bad it does, which I admit is a rather subjective equation. To wit: the number of alcohol-related deaths, accidents, and crimes that occur in the United States every year is so mind-bogglingly high that I shudder to even think about it. But when you consider the fact that virtually 100% of adults in this country consume alcohol to one degree or another (from a 'social drinker' to hardcore alcoholics) the percentage of incidences in which alcohol is drunk that leads to a crime or accident is puny. Although many suffer some consequence from excessive alcohol consumption, the 'good', if you will, greatly outweighs the bad. Same with junk food. Obesity is a major problem that causes untold numbers of deaths every year. But chocolate provides pleasure to everyone, and serious problems to few, so it's a worthwhile trade-off.
Gambling on the other hand ensnares most people who try it, consumes them, and has most wishing they had never stepped foot in a casino/sportsbook. The bad outweighs the good.
Many of you said that I'm in 'denial'. About what?! I am completely open about the nature and extent of my problem. I don't blame anyone, or any disease, but myself. What exactly am I in denial about? I invite y'all to enlighten me. By definition, being 'in denial' means not being consciously aware of your problem, but I really don't believe that's my issue.
As for worries about the extent of my addiction, I appreciate your concerns, but I don't think that I'm 'teetering at the edge'. Except for the fact that the amount I bet on games is higher now than it was 5 years ago, the essence of my addiction/habit hasn't changed. Nor has it affected any aspect of my morality or other facets of life, except for the huge amount of time spent researching and betting on and watching games. This, too was another reason I felt GA didn't work for me...everyone had all these sob stories about how gambling led to their lives falling apart, their families abandoning them, gambling addiction leading to other addiction, being a bad person etc. I have been fortunate that gambling has NOT had such an effect on me. I don't cheat, or lie, I don't do drugs or drink excessively, I (try always to) treat people with respect...if I don't have money to bet, I just don't bet -- I never steal. What having a gambling problem does is make me lose money (on the whole) and time, and hair. But that's it. It has no bearing on other facets of my life.
And I'm rambling excessively as I fall asleep at the keys. I hope someone can make some sense of this, and I look forward to a litany of responses on the morrow...
It's 4 AM and I'm exhausted, but I'll respond to a few of the pressing points people raised...
First and foremost, many of you have emphasized and re-emphasized the point that I am "in denial" and am unable or unwilling to acknowledge personal responsibility for my own
problems and choices. That is so off-base it's comical! Let me reiterate here, for at least the third time in this thread: _I AM FULLY AWARE OF MY ADDICTION TO GAMBLING, AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS_. Okay?! I never denied that. I've said that from the get-go.
The irony of this accusation is that one of the most annoying things I found about GA is that people would always blame the "disease" or the "addiction" for their misdeeds. That always pissed me off to no end, and I used to raise that in meetings, much to the ire of my fellow gamblers. My point, then, and now, is that as an adult, YOU (or I) am fully responsible for your actions. No matter how tempting the prospects of engaging in an activity, as a sane adult with full control of your mental faculties, any choice you make is yours to live with. Calling gambling addiction a 'disease' is a cop-out because it absolves yourself of responsibility to a degree and places the onus on the mysterious 'disease' plaguing and taking control of your soul. Cancer is a disease, AIDS is a disease, because they eat away at healthy cells and cause you to die, and there's nothing you can do to repel their detrimental effects. But gambling? No matter how strong the urge, it still requires a conscious decision to go to the track/casino/sportsbook and physically place the wager -- an action that any adult can stop himself from doing. Anyone who DOES choose to make that choice has to be able to own up to it afterwards and not blame 'the book', 'society', the disease etc.
I have _NEVER_ denied that all of the time and money I've spent and wasted is my fault, my responsibility.
My point, again, for the thousandth time, is not that I BLAME sportsbooks for the choices *I* make, but the very fact that someone chooses to go into the bookmaking business, to make money off other people's urges, to exploit those who are not able to control themselves, to take advantage of the hotheadedness and uneven temperment and tendency to chase and all of the other psychological predispositions common to thrill-seeking humans...says something very negative about the individual. That's what my entire point is: not that I blame them, not that I'm in denial, not that I don't take responsibility for *MY* actions and *MY* choices, but that the facilitators and enablers -- those who make conscious, clearheaded decisions to make a livelihood over the failures and weaknesses of their fellow man are worthy of scorn. Whether the bookmaker is earning his profit off the vig or making money when the losing proposition gets the lion share of the action -- in either case, he only wins when his clients lose. And 95% of them do. And most of those chase their losses and hurt themselves and their families badly. We all know the terribly dangerous, spiraling effects of gambling. Bookies are not RESPONSIBLE for the choices adults make, but by providing an opportunity to continue the cycle, they perpetuate the problem.
Most people who gamble do not gamble responsibly. That's a primary motivation for going into the bookmaking industry. If most people who bet bet only amounts they could afford to lose, and the ratio of long-term winners to losers were even, bookmaking would not be such an alluring proposition. It is alluring, and sexy and profitable because people lose. And choosing to make your living off other people's lost finances and lives is exactly akin to being a drug dealer, as far as I'm concerned. No, the dealer isn't responsible for the choice an adult makes to shoot himself up full of crack and heroin, but he too knows that once the junkie gets one hit, he's liable to want more and more until his life is destroyed. Hey -- he's an adult, he made his own choice, right!? Preying on the foibles of man and then claiming innocence is, in my mind, despicable.
Valdosta, Pancho, Le Bud -- You brought up my finances, which really have absolutely nothing to do with my rant. I am up close to 7 dimes over the past 25 days. I've done well this year, despite individual days of enormous losses. I still hate gambling and bookies.
Java -- Obviously I don't justify what the hackers did. That's just cruel. I'm not happy there are hackers out there ruining people's businesses -- all I did was admit that in a black corner of my heart I feel justice was done to people who I despise for choosing to make a living this way.
A lot of you have brought up analogies to other industries. I'm not going to answer the stupid question about whether I think gun manufacturers are to blame for murders -- if you bother to read what I wrote in this post and in several previous ones, you'll know how I feel about adults taking responsibility for their actions. But whether purveyors of gambling can be compared to purveyors of other vices depends on the nature of the vice and its impact on humanity, in my mind. In essence, I compare the proportion of good a particular 'vice' does for humanity vs. the bad it does, which I admit is a rather subjective equation. To wit: the number of alcohol-related deaths, accidents, and crimes that occur in the United States every year is so mind-bogglingly high that I shudder to even think about it. But when you consider the fact that virtually 100% of adults in this country consume alcohol to one degree or another (from a 'social drinker' to hardcore alcoholics) the percentage of incidences in which alcohol is drunk that leads to a crime or accident is puny. Although many suffer some consequence from excessive alcohol consumption, the 'good', if you will, greatly outweighs the bad. Same with junk food. Obesity is a major problem that causes untold numbers of deaths every year. But chocolate provides pleasure to everyone, and serious problems to few, so it's a worthwhile trade-off.
Gambling on the other hand ensnares most people who try it, consumes them, and has most wishing they had never stepped foot in a casino/sportsbook. The bad outweighs the good.
Many of you said that I'm in 'denial'. About what?! I am completely open about the nature and extent of my problem. I don't blame anyone, or any disease, but myself. What exactly am I in denial about? I invite y'all to enlighten me. By definition, being 'in denial' means not being consciously aware of your problem, but I really don't believe that's my issue.
As for worries about the extent of my addiction, I appreciate your concerns, but I don't think that I'm 'teetering at the edge'. Except for the fact that the amount I bet on games is higher now than it was 5 years ago, the essence of my addiction/habit hasn't changed. Nor has it affected any aspect of my morality or other facets of life, except for the huge amount of time spent researching and betting on and watching games. This, too was another reason I felt GA didn't work for me...everyone had all these sob stories about how gambling led to their lives falling apart, their families abandoning them, gambling addiction leading to other addiction, being a bad person etc. I have been fortunate that gambling has NOT had such an effect on me. I don't cheat, or lie, I don't do drugs or drink excessively, I (try always to) treat people with respect...if I don't have money to bet, I just don't bet -- I never steal. What having a gambling problem does is make me lose money (on the whole) and time, and hair. But that's it. It has no bearing on other facets of my life.
And I'm rambling excessively as I fall asleep at the keys. I hope someone can make some sense of this, and I look forward to a litany of responses on the morrow...
dogs,
I'm glad to have been mentioned as one of the cordial responders although I am sure everyone has good intentions and is trying to help in their own way, even if on the surface it doesn't look like that.
It is inconsistent to hate the bookmakers for what they are doing on the one hand -- assisting, providing, facilitating or whatever word you use it makes no difference -- the fact is you say you hate them, and to say you are not blaming them on the other hand. What do you think blame is, then? You say they are not 100% responsible, but PARTIALLY responsible. This means you don't give them 100% of the blame but you do give them SOME of the blame. Take all previous comments about blame to apply to THAT PERCENTAGE of the blame that you assign to them, OK? You cannot say it is zero or else I can say with confidence that you don't know what the word "blame" means.
And I agree that gambling is much more powerful a force than chocolate in that with chocolate you get satisfied rather quickly whereas with gambling one can get sucked into a very deep hole indeed if one is not careful.
It's as if there were black holes randomly dispersed around the places we go in our daily affairs. Some people walk right through them without getting sucked in while others never come out. The rest get affected somewhere between these extremes -- ie. they get sucked in a bit, but with some effort and/or outside help they get out eventually. And some people are running the black holes making money any time someone passes through, regardless of whether or not they make it out.
My theory is that the difference between those who get sucked in and those who don't is psychological strength. There's an exact parallel with physical strength, the only difference being that it's much harder to see directly who is stronger than whom. It takes a confrontation with a black hole to really make the distinction. And just as with physical strength, some people are stronger than others genetically, but we can all work out at the gym and make ourselves stronger than we are now if we want. Most of us could never win olympic medals no matter how much we work out, but we can all get to the level where we don't get sucked into a black hole. Some have to work harder than others to get there, but they can get there nonetheless.
As for hating the black hole proprietors, it really is like alcohol or tobacco manufacturers in that my analogy applies just as well to them. It's a matter of how much you expect people to be concerned with other people's problems. Have you ever lent someone money for cigarettes? Have you ever bought someone a drink? These are philosophically similar actions, albeit on a smaller scale. If you answered "yes" then you are guilty in a similar way to the bookies. If a guy in a bar shouts out "I wanna bet 50 bucks on Buffalo, anyone wanna bet with me!?" If you say "OK, I'll bet", does that make you an object of justified hatred!!??? You could say you are not taking juice and so it's different. Well, what if you know that Buffalo is a 3 point dog and you take the bet at even money!? Then you are taking WAY more juice than the books. The guy obviously wants to bet so he can enjoy the game. He is ASKING for someone to bet with him. Are you really to be hated for just doing what he asks!? Think about it! If you examine it at that level it really becomes quite absurd what you are saying.
Sorry, but this is all the time I have at the moment. I may have missed some of your points but I think I've covered the main ideas. I think the passage of time will help in itself and if I can think of something else to add I will.
I'm glad to have been mentioned as one of the cordial responders although I am sure everyone has good intentions and is trying to help in their own way, even if on the surface it doesn't look like that.
It is inconsistent to hate the bookmakers for what they are doing on the one hand -- assisting, providing, facilitating or whatever word you use it makes no difference -- the fact is you say you hate them, and to say you are not blaming them on the other hand. What do you think blame is, then? You say they are not 100% responsible, but PARTIALLY responsible. This means you don't give them 100% of the blame but you do give them SOME of the blame. Take all previous comments about blame to apply to THAT PERCENTAGE of the blame that you assign to them, OK? You cannot say it is zero or else I can say with confidence that you don't know what the word "blame" means.
And I agree that gambling is much more powerful a force than chocolate in that with chocolate you get satisfied rather quickly whereas with gambling one can get sucked into a very deep hole indeed if one is not careful.
It's as if there were black holes randomly dispersed around the places we go in our daily affairs. Some people walk right through them without getting sucked in while others never come out. The rest get affected somewhere between these extremes -- ie. they get sucked in a bit, but with some effort and/or outside help they get out eventually. And some people are running the black holes making money any time someone passes through, regardless of whether or not they make it out.
My theory is that the difference between those who get sucked in and those who don't is psychological strength. There's an exact parallel with physical strength, the only difference being that it's much harder to see directly who is stronger than whom. It takes a confrontation with a black hole to really make the distinction. And just as with physical strength, some people are stronger than others genetically, but we can all work out at the gym and make ourselves stronger than we are now if we want. Most of us could never win olympic medals no matter how much we work out, but we can all get to the level where we don't get sucked into a black hole. Some have to work harder than others to get there, but they can get there nonetheless.
As for hating the black hole proprietors, it really is like alcohol or tobacco manufacturers in that my analogy applies just as well to them. It's a matter of how much you expect people to be concerned with other people's problems. Have you ever lent someone money for cigarettes? Have you ever bought someone a drink? These are philosophically similar actions, albeit on a smaller scale. If you answered "yes" then you are guilty in a similar way to the bookies. If a guy in a bar shouts out "I wanna bet 50 bucks on Buffalo, anyone wanna bet with me!?" If you say "OK, I'll bet", does that make you an object of justified hatred!!??? You could say you are not taking juice and so it's different. Well, what if you know that Buffalo is a 3 point dog and you take the bet at even money!? Then you are taking WAY more juice than the books. The guy obviously wants to bet so he can enjoy the game. He is ASKING for someone to bet with him. Are you really to be hated for just doing what he asks!? Think about it! If you examine it at that level it really becomes quite absurd what you are saying.
Sorry, but this is all the time I have at the moment. I may have missed some of your points but I think I've covered the main ideas. I think the passage of time will help in itself and if I can think of something else to add I will.
