Anyone starting to get it yet?

[Phaedrus]

posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You need a gun to protect yourself from people like me that take the mick?

I'm OK P. no poverty here, healthcare is free, no gun toting desperadoes running about, quite happy thanx.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no poverty in the UK? Are you seriously asserting this?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If your country is sooo fabby, turn your gun in, and give yourself over to love and trust.
Trust in God. not a .357 magnum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A .357 Magnum is a far more reliable fallback than a deity. Magnums exist, and if the guy trying to rob me happens to believe in Walther PPK's and not Ruger Blackhawk Magnums it is a non-issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm actually being unfair, because the US is such an easy target.

No real intelligence required...unfortunately.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rag on the US as much as or even more than you do; not sure why you would think that's a sensitive subject to me.

posted by JackDee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I am sorry there phaedrus, first of all they live like poor middle class of a couple of centuries ago (which isn't saying much really, is it?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am inclined to disagree, but even absent debating the point, a crippingly poor person living like what lower-middle class persons used to live is also progress.

However -- massively cheaper access to pretty much everything, and then some -- stuff that Napoleon would have never dreamed of being able to access affordably, from sanitation to medical products (not to start an healthcare debate; just talking about stuff like band aids and alcohol and splints and such) to fresh grapes -- is what you call an improvement in the standard of living of virtually every man, owman and child on earth. The only exceptions on the planet today are found in overtly communist countries, and the shitholes south of the equator (mostly sub-Saharan Africa, but South America to a lesser extent) and those places brought it on themselves.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
... they could be much better off, and the fact that they get something instead of nothing is not due to "fee market economy", what i call anarchocapitalism, it's because technological advances in agriculture, manufacturing, health and medicine, communications etc. etc. over those years have been so immense, that the rich can now make much more than they used to, and get an even larger portion of the world's wealth and still be able to throw the odd bone to the poor, of much better quality nowadays.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Advances in technology, agriculture, manufacturing, medical technology (haven't really been too many advances in medicine per se in the last long while but we are making better and better use of the knowledge wehad) ... all of this stuff, practically every bit of it, comes from two and only two sources: the capitalist profit motive, or the massive investment of stolen funds by government in order to have the prestige of being first/best/only/etc. Not only have market economies contributed a greater share of these benefits to mankind than statist manipulation, but with far less consequences.

And yes, the rich have gotten richer and richer and richer, just as they should, and the amount of money that they donate to charity -- no matter how much is torn from their hands by the state -- is rising, continues to rise, and has risen steadily for decades. I love it when wealthy people do good, unselfish things for the less fortunate and even that can't dig a kind word out people like you.


Phaedrus

 

[Oceans11]

BS. You mentioned the phoenicians(now edited out but I saw ya)

How come you picked them, out of everyone over the millenia.

 

[Oceans11]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and those places brought it on themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, like Vietnam and WW2 and aids and Cholera and malaria and Iraq and the black death.

Gimme a break.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and the amount of money that they donate to charity -- no matter how much is torn from their hands by the state -- is rising, continues to rise, and has risen steadily for decades. I love it when wealthy people do good, unselfish things for the less fortunate and even that can't dig a kind word out people like you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just delusional.
You squeal like a girl over taxes then tell us how generous you are...

Be Honest.
You like poor people because they make you feel superior.

Whereas governments make you pay your frikken way, and the poor dont give a rats about your existence.

Governments cut that self-inflating ego system out of the equation.

[This message was edited by eek on July 13, 2004 at 01:22 AM.]

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

goodnight Borat

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Benassflick:
you guys are boring the crap out of me and probably each other as well. Say goodnight Borat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

You don't miss a beat do you? I singled them out because of their sudden dissapearence and seeming dominance at the time we lost all trace. Think about this..if you are a mob boss and no one knows that you are the boss how can anyone upseat you.Thye can't even find you. eek I am off to bed. Until tommorow..have a good night my friend.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eek:
BS. You mentioned the phoenicians(now edited out but I saw ya)

How come you picked them, out of everyone over the millenia.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Oceans11]

goodnight Borat.
--------------------------
And never ever forget young man.

All your profits and wealth are a direct product of our mixed system.

(A system, curiously, you so detest)

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

Guys you should be able to see eye to eye on this. Just get to the jist of it and you will see. Apples and oranges. See you at 9:00 eastern standard time.

 

[Phaedrus]

posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
posted by Phaedrus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and [sub-Saharan Africa; South America] brought it on themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, like Vietnam and WW2 and aids and Cholera and malaria and Iraq and the black death.

Gimme a break.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, like propping up fruitcake dictators and the like. Give me a break. South Africa was massively better of under apartheid than they are now. Do you think that this means that apartheid was a good thing, or that there is just something seriously wrong with South Africans overall?

Congo/Zaire/Belgian Congo/whatever they call themselves this week should be the richest, most powerful nation in Africa, based on resources to population, agricultural development, strategic location, etc. Where are they now? Colonial days are long gone. Capitalist exploiters are nowhere to be seen. Whence Utopia?

They bring their situation on themselves, and perpetuate it by propping up the likes of Magabe, the late Mobutu and Kabila, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
... and the amount of money that they donate to charity -- no matter how much is torn from their hands by the state -- is rising, continues to rise, and has risen steadily for decades. I love it when wealthy people do good, unselfish things for the less fortunate and even that can't dig a kind word out people like you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is just delusional.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

American individuals, estates, foundations, and corporations gave an estimated $240.72 billion to charitable causes in 2003, according to Giving USA 2004, a study released by Giving USA Foundation. This is an increase of 2.8 percent over a revised estimate of $234.09 billion for 2002. This is the highest rate of growth seen since 2000. Adjusted for inflation, 2003 giving rose 0.5 percent from 2002, slightly below the inflation-adjusted growth rate of 0.6 percent from 2001 to 2002. Giving USA, the annual report on philanthropy, is published by Giving USA Foundation, a public service initiative of the Trust for Philanthropy of the American Association of Fundraising Counsel (AAFRC). The study is researched and written by the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University.

Since 1998, charitable giving has been 2 percent or more of gross domestic product (GDP) following more than two decades below that mark. For 2003, total contributions are estimated to be 2.2 percent of GDP. The all-time high was 2.3 percent of GDP in 2000.

(source)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You squeal like a girl over taxes then tell us how generous you are...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't possibly be seriously asserting that taxation, which is forcible theft and redistribution of wealth, is anything remotely like voluntary support of charitable causes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Be Honest.

You like poor people because they make you feel superior.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll be honest: if you said this to my face I would beat you within an inch of your life.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Whereas governments make you pay your frikken way, and the poor dont give a rats about your existence.

Governments cut that self-inflating ego system out of the equation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, government is a good thing because it keeps wealthy people from feeling any poride of purpose? Wow.

As I've said before, you and people like yourself are the greatest threat to civilisaton humanity has ever known. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and al lthe crazy conquerors of yore have absolutely nothing on a generation of willing zombies who prop up vanialla totalitarianism not just as an uthinking default, but out of a wanton desire to bring down the people who provide the most net benefits to everyone else.


Phaedrus

 

[DarrylParsons]

Phaedrus,

It is obvious to me that your view of capitalism is spot on. It is also obvious that in a democracy a good 80% of the people benefit from the mixed system eek is talking about. It is clear that eek (and presumably those who agree with him) belongs to that 80% and that you and I (and those who agree with you) belong to the other 20%.

What is not obvious is why you are bothering to try to convince him of your correctness!? There are very powerful psychological forces built in to everyone's brain that finds all sorts of reasons to disagree with pure reason if they feel it their advantage to do so.

Try explaining to my dog that he doesn't own the property he lives on. He thinks he does and in his world it's true until someone uses force to drive him off it. And if he never gets driven off, well, it's hard to argue against him, isn't it?

Eek is an intelligent guy who considers himself better off with the government involved in life than without. Maybe for him it's true. At this moment such governments have a lot of firepower and a lot of public support (which helps maintain the firepower) so his type seems to be winning for now. Fifty years from now it may be a different story, though.

In any case it would seem more efficient for you (and me) to direct our energies into something actionable. Wasting it on trying to convince the unconvincable seems futile. Don't you agree?

 

[Phaedrus]

Darryl

On the one hand, honestly, I just like a good fight. I have no desire whatsoever to proseltyse for capitalism, having long since accepted that the vast majority of the world is populated by thugs who not only want a free ride from the minority but also want to spit in our faces and punish us if we don't toe the line they are continuously redrawing.

On the other, eek in particular gets under my skin precisely because unlike some other posters, as you point out he really does seem like an intelligent and thoughtful person -- yet he engages in rank dishonesty repeatedly when it comes to the topic of statism vs. anti-statism, capitalism vs.socialism, etc. He ignores documentable history and easily-demonstrable premises in favour of vacuous blanket statements that do not hold up to even the mildest scrutiny, then evacuates the thread when it goes against him, or falls back on that old chesnut "I'm ok, you're a shithead."

I expect that sort of thing from the idiots and sociopaths at this site, but have a hard time leaving it alone in eek's case (and to a lesser extent, JackDee, who is a lot like eek except more so.)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In any case it would seem more efficient for you (and me) to direct our energies into something actionable. Wasting it on trying to convince the unconvincable seems futile. Don't you agree?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course, but again I am not really stumping for converts here. The reason I spend so much time posting at the Rx is that it is a community in which I genuinely enjoy participating, and because I can fortunately run it in a spare window while working most of the time. Since I work >100 hours a week and most of that is online, that means I have the Rx open in a window probably a bare minimum of 60-80 hours a week (see a list of my most recent posts to get a feel for the sort of hours I spend awake and in front of the computer.) Trust me, I'm not sacrificing valuable time that I could be using making money, having sex, reading a good book, spending time with my son, etc. trying to convince the deranged that they should do something for their own good.


Phaedrus

 

[Oceans11]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eek is an intelligent guy who considers himself better off with the government involved in life than without. Maybe for him it's true. At this moment such governments have a lot of firepower and a lot of public support (which helps maintain the firepower) so his type seems to be winning for now. Fifty years from now it may be a different story, though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eek is also a bit of a bum from time to time.
And he rather unfairly takes the mick out of P. instead of engaging in intelligent dialogue.

Note to self. Gotta be more mature in future.

 

[DarrylParsons]

Phaedrus and Eek,

I hope you guys don't change based on what I said. You are more entertaining than all those Rocky movies. We must be at Phaedrus-Eek LXXXVIII by now in terms of bouts. I just wondered what the motivations were and now I think I'm getting it. It's just another form of entertainment -- and a good one at that!

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

Can someone sum up thier disagreement

 

[DarrylParsons]

In a nutshell:

Phaedrus: Believes in the true free hand concept. Capitalism is nothing more than everyone acting in their own best interest and is effectively the same as allowing nature to run its course. Interfering with Mother Nature eventually leads to disaster and therefore capitalism is to be cherished and strived for.

Eek: Believes the mixed system (ie. socialism) in which the government interferes to the extent it does today in most western countries is the best for the future of mankind. Capitalism allows greed and power hunger to take over and therefore is not desirable.

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

Gotta go with eek on this one. There is absolutley no reason for insurance companies and electric companies and water companies and any company that provides a service that every single person needs to be in private hands. These companies should charge what they do in order to reach a break even point, not to make a profit.

 

[Phaedrus]

Borat

How did your country enjoy doing just that for those sixty-five years that it was a Soviet republic?


Phaedrus

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

I did not like it. That is the difference though Phaedrus. I did not mean absolute control but not to have everything privatized is good. Like the sectors I described above . Do you treally think that humanities best interest is put to the front as far as healthcare is concerned. On one side you have the patient and on the other side you have the sharholders. Who do you serve.....the one who pays your salary. Why would anyplace let alone a place you go when you are sick stuff two people in one room?

 

[BoratSagdiyev]

Congressman: I'm running for United States Congress in District 2.

Borat: (You are) a strong man. (You) will crush his opponents and he will be powerful like Stalin and not tolerate people who are bad.

Congressman: Well, actually, I wouldn't compare myself to Stalin ...

Borat: Will you vote for my friend?

Female passer-by: Well, I probably will, but I don't ever tell people who I vote for before I vote.

Borat: If you do not vote for him, he will take power!

Female passer-by: Well, it depends on whether he gets enough votes or not.

Borat: I will not leave until you swear on the eyes of your child that you will vote for him.