America's Lack of Confidence?

[tiznow]

its not the savings that's the problem dude

its the type of debt

american's took on bad debt

taking on debt to buy a flat screen tv made for peanuts in china isn't buying some of value

taking on debt to buy a 20 dollar teddy bear made for pennies in china isn't buying something of value

debt isn't the problem the type of debt is.....

american's somewhere along the way got conned into this notion that they could go into debt buying worthless goods

a 20 dollar teddy bear and flat screen tv is just fine if you have the money....if you have the income to purchase those goods....that's great you want it buy it

but don't take on debt to do it that's where you get in trouble

 

[JoeContrarian]

its not the savings that's the problem dude

its the type of debt

american's took on bad debt

taking on debt to buy a flat screen tv made for peanuts in china isn't buying some of value

taking on debt to buy a 20 dollar teddy bear made for pennies in china isn't buying something of value

debt isn't the problem the type of debt is.....

american's somewhere along the way got conned into this notion that they could go into debt buying worthless goods

a 20 dollar teddy bear and flat screen tv is just fine if you have the money....if you have the income to purchase those goods....that's great you want it buy it

but don't take on debt to do it that's where you get in trouble

hno:

 

[tiznow]

anywho guess it ends there...

the doom and gloom likely coming we'll see how you guys deal with J6Ps response to it all

should be interesting....later...

 

[artiesliver]

its not lack of confidence

its lack of credit

overall american's became debt slaves they looking for another fix i'm sure

problem is banks can't dish it out cause they were stoopid/greedy just like the ones getting into debt

u could see this coming a mile away if you were an aware observer

tapping homes as ATMs, giving anybody with a pulse a mortgage and gobs of CCs, and investment banks working with 30 to 1 leverage is gonna end badly

Yes, that contributes to the lack of confidence.

One problem is that the U.S. government continues to lead by example (albeit a poor one), creating a significant deficit by borrowing (in the form of Treasury obligations) from the same countries that are passing us by.

 

[gtc08]

you look at these countries booming and growing. these countries family is most important. these countries the kids live with there family until the parents die. these are tight bonded families who dont let outside influences come between them like here.

money is a small part of it. somewhere along the line americans decided it was ok to break that bond between family. and as ive always said, no family no country. the decline of the american family has led to all the negative problems in the country. one of the main reasons i'm leaving. would never consider raising kids in this country.

no family means having nobody you can truly rely on. nobody you can seek guidance with. nobody you can confide in, share your emotions with. that is all absent in this country. that leads to crime, theft, dumb decisions, being taken advantage of, which happens all the time in this country.

 

[DarrylParsons]

Correct gtc, and interestingly enough, JoeC agrees with you while simultaneously supporting the machine that destroys families by its very nature.

I'm not sure what to call it...I'm debating between "the schizophrenic nature of neoconism" and "the incompatibility of social and fiscal conservatism in a globalized world"

 

[mamatried]

you look at these countries booming and growing. these countries family is most important. these countries the kids live with there family until the parents die. these are tight bonded families who dont let outside influences come between them like here.

money is a small part of it. somewhere along the line americans decided it was ok to break that bond between family. and as ive always said, no family no country. the decline of the american family has led to all the negative problems in the country. one of the main reasons i'm leaving. would never consider raising kids in this country.

no family means having nobody you can truly rely on. nobody you can seek guidance with. nobody you can confide in, share your emotions with. that is all absent in this country. that leads to crime, theft, dumb decisions, being taken advantage of, which happens all the time in this country.

The implication that the vast majority of American children are being brought up without any viable family structure is preposterous. Granted, things aren't as they were in the 50s, but our illegitimate birth rate is much lower than in most of those western European countries that you're so fond of, and church attendance (which I presume is one of your measures of social stability) is much higher.

 

[tiznow]

you look at these countries booming and growing. these countries family is most important. these countries the kids live with there family until the parents die. these are tight bonded families who dont let outside influences come between them like here.

money is a small part of it. somewhere along the line americans decided it was ok to break that bond between family. and as ive always said, no family no country. the decline of the american family has led to all the negative problems in the country. one of the main reasons i'm leaving. would never consider raising kids in this country.

no family means having nobody you can truly rely on. nobody you can seek guidance with. nobody you can confide in, share your emotions with. that is all absent in this country. that leads to crime, theft, dumb decisions, being taken advantage of, which happens all the time in this country.

who's booming? and has it better off than the US

many of the "booming" ones are china type where a small percent of people are enjoying the good times while they still have a huge poor population who's wages are stagnant that have to deal with the inflation the growth gives um

in the meantime they creating an environmental disaster

also regardless of who you meant

many countries were allowed to "boom" due due to american's overconsumption via debt that is now gone

the global growth of recent past seen worldwide was a very symbiotic relationship....with its engine being easy credit in america

 

[Willie99]

GTC08, I agree 100% with the family argument. I raised my kids gtc08, as did everybody I know. One of my friends is divorced, as is one of my in-laws.

The single parent problem is 1000x bigger in inner cities, where the social policies that you tend to espouse encourage parents not to get married, lest their benefits get reduced. It also encourages unwed teens to get pregnant so as to increase the family revenue stream.

The single parent / breakdown of the family issue is also worsened by enabling demographics that tend to be more promiscuous to adopt children.

Our social incentives have to take a 180 degree turn.

I'm not sure how either you or DP can spin anything Joe said into contributing to and / or ignoring this issue.


PS: what countries are you referring to anyways?

 

[tiznow]

Yes, that contributes to the lack of confidence.

One problem is that the U.S. government continues to lead by example (albeit a poor one), creating a significant deficit by borrowing (in the form of Treasury obligations) from the same countries that are passing us by.

its all they know how to do artie they do it every time

when shit hits the fan just throw more funny money at the problem and try to reinflate the bubble

this problem we got here is huge

tech bubble's are a walk in the park....but when you dealing with the financial institution's being in trouble that's when things can get really ugly

the problem isn't necessary going forward moving forward its just a mop up job

the root of the problem is what created the sitution the federal reserve that creates all this easy credit, the banks know the fed/taxpayer has their back so they do stupid shit like take on 30 to 1 leverage aka lots of risk.....along with stupid american's that play along and go into tons of bad debt.....fiscally american's have become retarded over the past 5 years due to the housing/credit card boom they about to learn a lesson (the indebted ones)

 

[tiznow]

PS: what countries are you referring to anyways?

maybe his future home?

OTTAWA: A surprisingly large 55,000 jobs were lost in Canada in July, the biggest monthly job loss since the 1991 recession, providing more evidence of an economic slowdown. The Canadian dollar dropped immediately and bonds rose in reaction to release of the Statistics Canada employment report on Friday morning. Economists called the figures "extremely ugly" and "stunningly bad".

:grandmais

 

[mamatried]

its all they know how to do artie they do it every time

when shit hits the fan just throw more funny money at the problem and try to reinflate the bubble

this problem we got here is huge

tech bubble's are a walk in the park....but when you dealing with the financial institution's being in trouble that's when things can get really ugly

the problem isn't necessary going forward moving forward its just a mop up job

the root of the problem is what created the sitution the federal reserve that creates all this easy credit, the banks know the fed/taxpayer has their back so they do stupid shit like take on 30 to 1 leverage aka lots of risk.....along with stupid american's that play along and go into tons of bad debt.....fiscally american's have become retarded over the past 5 years due to the housing/credit card boom they about to learn a lesson (the indebted ones)

Tiz tiz tiz tiz tiz. The root of the problem is not the Federal Reserve. And it's not even Congress, which runs up the huge deficits that make devaluation of the currency necessary. It's the American public - you and I - that demand that our standard of living be maintained and that the Government provide an ever expanding safety net. Congress only does our bidding, leaving the Fed with the unenviable task of trying to plug the leaks in the ship with silly putty.

 

[tiznow]

banks shouldn't be allowed to leverage up to 30 to 1 and hand out mortgages and credit cards to anybody with a pulse

their job is to balance the risk/reward

the rating agencies are a joke...moody's etc.....

the credit standards of the banks were allowed to break down cause the markets were flooded with credit and alot of other crap

but yes is agree the people are also to blame for taking the debt bait

not being fiscally responsible and taking a serious look at how they consume and balance the risk/reward of the debt they take on



now everybody looking for handouts both banks and citizens

plus most of the stuff going on right now via fed and congress is to help out the banks not you and I

the banks go down (big ones) we all scroomed

 

[Dave007inVegas]

Gtc, I agree with some of what you say but your not being rational.

You state:
you look at these countries booming and growing. these countries family is most important. these countries the kids live with there family until the parents die. these are tight bonded families who dont let outside influences come between them like here.

I reply:
A lot of it has to do the inability of parents to support a family. They reproduce without thinking of the consequences. They need their children to survive. It’s not a healthy environment to keep your children as indentured servants.

You state:
money is a small part of it. somewhere along the line americans decided it was ok to break that bond between family. and as ive always said, no family no country. the decline of the american family has led to all the negative problems in the country. one of the main reasons i'm leaving. would never consider raising kids in this country.

I reply:
Money is not a small part, it is not the most important part of life but it is needed if you aspire to more than existing in squalor.
When you leave, if you ever do, I recommend you consider not procreating no matter where live.

You state:
no family means having nobody you can truly rely on. nobody you can seek guidance with. nobody you can confide in, share your emotions with. that is all absent in this country. that leads to crime, theft, dumb decisions, being taken advantage of, which happens all the time in this country.

I reply:
Here’s where I agree, sort of. no family means having nobody you can truly rely on. nobody you can seek guidance with. nobody you can confide in, share your emotions with. Here’s where I disagree, that is all absent in this country. That statement just shows how bitter you are with your own life.

In your mind your life is fucked, so instead of looking in a mirror you blame America.

 

[Willie99]

BTW, here's a prediction

the day after the election is over, economic news will be reported with more balance instead of being horrifically slanted towards the negative. By the end of the year, consumer confidence increases and growth increases. It has happened before, most notably in 1992.

Consumer confidence has been eroded by reporting. I've made this argument in other threads, people are happy and confident about their own life, yet they think the economy is horrible. How can you explain such a phenomenon?

because the media has told them everybody else is suffering.

Time will tell, and only time. Repeated gibberish about the fed and the debt has already been noted 4,263 times, and means little to me at this point. Time will tell.

 

[DarrylParsons]

Willie, I am not spinning anything, simply referring to what I know is JoeC's stance on a couple of issues and pointing out that they are in contradiction to one another.

As you yourself said, social incentives need a 180 degree turn.

Please think about the following:

1) Both parents working boosts the economy.
2) Mothers taking minimal maternity leave boosts the economy.
3) Preventative medicine hurts the economy.
4) People being diagnosed with various funky chronic diseases and being on permanent meds that still allow them to function at work, etc. boosts the economy.
5) Sending small kids to daycare boosts the economy.
6) Having to commute (and thus having less time for the family) boosts the economy.

In all of the above questions, the gov't wants to keep the status quo or make things worse socially because upholding family values is costly to the economy. If you think McCain will change the situation, you are dreaming.

 

[tiznow]

BTW, here's a prediction

the day after the election is over, economic news will be reported with more balance instead of being horrifically slanted towards the negative. By the end of the year, consumer confidence increases and growth increases. It has happened before, most notably in 1992.

Consumer confidence has been eroded by reporting. I've made this argument in other threads, people are happy and confident about their own life, yet they think the economy is horrible. How can you explain such a phenomenon?

because the media has told them everybody else is suffering.

Time will tell, and only time. Repeated gibberish about the fed and the debt has already been noted 4,263 times, and means little to me at this point. Time will tell.

no consumer confidence was falling with increase in gas prices

it had an uptick recently but i think it will be shortlived

once people get the tizgloom realization that lower oil isn't good for the global economy as a whole

japanese consumer confidence is at a 30 year low or something and is going down all over the world.....

and your right time will tell

 

[DarrylParsons]

I forgot to add ... babies being born via c-section boosts the economy.

 

[tiznow]

Willie, I am not spinning anything, simply referring to what I know is JoeC's stance on a couple of issues and pointing out that they are in contradiction to one another.

As you yourself said, social incentives need a 180 degree turn.

Please think about the following:

1) Both parents working boosts the economy.
2) Mothers taking minimal maternity leave boosts the economy.
3) Preventative medicine hurts the economy.
4) People being diagnosed with various funky chronic diseases and being on permanent meds that still allow them to function at work, etc. boosts the economy.
5) Sending small kids to daycare boosts the economy.
6) Having to commute (and thus having less time for the family) boosts the economy.

In all of the above questions, the gov't wants to keep the status quo or make things worse socially because upholding family values is costly to the economy. If you think McCain will change the situation, you are dreaming.

actually DP a stable family gives us a more stable economy

it doesn't give us these boom busts

family's think more about the family and are fiscally more responsible

when the family gets broken up and priorities are changed towards materialistic shit that's where we get in trouble and create situations such as now

my grandpa was born soon after the great depression

worked hard, lived a modest lifestyle, saved for his family, invested hard in the stock market, and raised a traditional family like many others of his generation

everybody won with things growing at a modest and sustainable pace

and they now are pretty filthy rich and can help out family if need be

today everybody is about what they can have now many not thinking long term in their fiscal discipiline so we get these boom busts and when the bust comes everybody gets hurt including the fiscally responsible ones cause they have to deal with a really shitty economy, stock market, etc....

 

[Willie99]

Willie, I am not spinning anything, simply referring to what I know is JoeC's stance on a couple of issues and pointing out that they are in contradiction to one another.

As you yourself said, social incentives need a 180 degree turn.

Please think about the following:

1) Both parents working boosts the economy.
2) Mothers taking minimal maternity leave boosts the economy.
3) Preventative medicine hurts the economy.
4) People being diagnosed with various funky chronic diseases and being on permanent meds that still allow them to function at work, etc. boosts the economy.
5) Sending small kids to daycare boosts the economy.
6) Having to commute (and thus having less time for the family) boosts the economy.

In all of the above questions, the gov't wants to keep the status quo or make things worse socially because upholding family values is costly to the economy. If you think McCain will change the situation, you are dreaming.

What government policies are you referring to here?

1) both parents can only work if the economy is strong, eh? A family does not need to keep up with the Jones either. My wife stayed at home with my kids, which were both born within 5 years of graduating. She drove a Corolla for 12 years and our vacations used to be $ 800 4 day weekends.

2) maternity leave has almost no impact on the economy.

3) you mean Dr's don't get paid for office visits? I disagree with this premise, another zero impact issue.

4) We do diagnose too many issues, especially mental issues. that's not an economic issue or government policy. Another non-factor with respect to our 14 trillion dollar economy

5) Daycare is another insignificant economic variable. Tied into 1 above.

6) To the extent we spend significant money, other people benefit. I guess if nobody commuted, auto, auto service, gas, train, taxis, mass transit industries would suffer, but that's not life. What government policy do you espouse to reduce commuting?

I have to be honest DP, I think this is some pretty whacked out chit you're bringing up. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, as I do respect your opinion, but I cannot imagine going where you're going here.