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My challenge to gameface was to prove that it is the intent of AQ and those like them to convert the world to Islam. This is the foundation for the perceived threat and the excuse given for why 9/11 happened, cited often around here. It is as though some believe that Muslims started it, and the rest of us are just reacting. I suggest it is nowhere near as black and white as that.

(I don't know that the Qu'ran provides any more a foundation for what AQ says than the Bible does for Bush. Both claim to believe in it, but neither of their actions have never struck me as very 'faith-worthy.' I can't comment on those passages.)
 

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Based on my limited understanding of Islam I'll say that the terrorists are taking many liberties with their interpretation. It really doesn't matter what I think, though, because if someone really wants to fight you, you're going to fight whether you just stand there and let them kick your a$$ or you fight back.
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Its got f-all to do with real religion and beliefs, its power and control, using religion as a lame excuse.

The same old tree-monkeys with the same old BS...

All the wars that Rome fought were 'defensive'.

The bible-bashing christians have been massacring each other for hundreds of years.

And yet some of humanitys greatest achievements have happened because of conflict, or perceived conflict.

The Internet.
Mass Production.
The A-bomb.

It looks like wars are our pre-destiny, and even the a-bomb won't change that.

Its a funny sorta evolution the human race has.
Diversity is the strength in the species, but that same diversity leads to serious conflict on a regular basis.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Moneybags:
Based on my limited understanding of Islam I'll say that the terrorists are taking many liberties with their interpretation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's my impression as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It really doesn't matter what I think, though, because if someone really wants to fight you, you're going to fight whether you just stand there and let them kick your a$$ or you fight back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. But when you hear people say that terrorists are looking to take over the world, then use it as justification to take out Iraq (and who knows who would be next) it's a little disconcerting. If people, especially Americans right now, believe this theory, it will legitimise the current Iraq situation making new MidEast targets seem plausible and justified. There is a real failure to see exactly what this administration is up to, from a purely ideological perspective. Ultimately, if this horseshit continues through the region, I have no doubt that Canada will eventually have to join you out of self-defense. I'd rather us not be put in that position at all.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Right. But when you hear people say that terrorists are looking to take over the world, then use <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have stated as such.
 

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Alrighty, then let me pass on the burden of proof to you. I had asked Gameface to find proof of that and he hasn't yet.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to make a serious case for the terrorists wanting and being able to govern Iraq, never mind the whole planet.

Just how do you think the terrorists are going to take over the United States when even the Soviet Union could not? Canada, with our military of plastic forks and knives, has a better chance of taking you over than a group of radical Muslims who kill off as quickly as they recruit.
 

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It was either a OBL quote or a Zawrhiri(2nd guy) quote but they have stated it.Look whats going on in France,they've had something like 150 anti-semite attacks this year.There are more and more all the time with less condemnation.
I mean how bad does it have to get?
Appeasment and all the rest have just brought us to 9/11 and probably more.
 

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You've got little KKK kids calling themselves neo-nazis all over the US (we have them here, too) but how does that give credence to anything at all? Some terrorist attacks are one thing, but accusing them of wanting to take over the world is a little hyperparanoid, don't you think?

And it's this kind of hyperparanoia that bought you guys a one-way ticket to Iraq ...
 

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Thanks, UM. I believe I have read that one before, if only in part.

Interesting:

"Third, we realized from our defense and our fight with the American enemy that it depends, to a large extent, on the psychological warfare during its fight because it possesses a huge propaganda apparatus. Also, it depends on intensive air bombing and, that is to hide its biggest weakness point which is fear, coward ness, and the lack of the fighting spirit within the American soldiers."

Key quote, paragraphs 29, 30:

"We stress the importance of martyr operations against the enemy. These operations took revenge in America and in Israel in a way they never witnessed before. We also explain that any Iraqi hypocrites who support America or anyone who agrees with the Americans or goes along with them in their crusade fight by fighting with them or by providing bases or administrative support or any sort of support or alliance with them, even by words, to kill Muslims in Iraq, he has to know that he is an infidel and a someone who rejects religion and he is justified to be killed and his money taken.

God said, you pious people don't take Jews or Christians as your sponsors. Those who go with them are part of them and God doesn't approve of the oppressors. We stress upon true Muslims that they have to move and instigate the nation in these serious times and hard circumstances so that they would move and get rid of the oppressive and infidel regimes that are in power, those regimes that are slaves to America, so that the rule of god will be established on Earth, some of the parts that are ready to be liberated are Jordan, Morocco, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen."

These named nations are consistent with the territory of the Calliphate. If memory serves, it includes the MidEast, some part of Northern Africa, a small area in Asia, and part of Southern Europe, including Southern Spain. Attacks against the US are 'revenge' or 'self-defense' in their view. I'm also of the mind that it is not so much their intent to govern these areas as it is to overthrow the non-Islamic regimes and replace them with a theocratic government.

So, really, you have a sole nation that wants to flip over MidEast regimes, turning them pro-American (maybe democratic, although I think that's more of an afterthought) against an organisation wanting the opposite in the same region.

If you look at the situation honestly, it is the US that could be more accurately described as wanting to 'take over the world' than AQ-types, if only because of their current presence, might, and action. If this clash is and was inevitable (highly debatable) then of course most of the world would rather see the US win ... but you have to believe it was inevitable for this to matter one whit. It is the intent of each that matters most, but is the hardest to pin down with certainty.

UM, was it you that has spent time in the MidEast somewhere? I know someone here did, can't recall who ...
 

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Here's a really great synopsis of the whole Jihadic mess by, you should note, a Bush supporter:


The Great Caliphate

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include, Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and finally what they call the “occupied territory” Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and what was attempted in Egypt with the murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan. Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons.

The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic goals. 1. The U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. 2. Taking control of the oil wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of known reserves, and 3. Using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives would be to place the United Nations as the sole arbiter in East/West negotiations.

Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found in the facts that immediately following the 9/11 attack, their first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt, believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda while Americans focused on the disaster in New York. The administration also knew that the most important objective was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message to the Jihadists. The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in prison.

Why Iraq?

The war on Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein and the master planners of the Third Jihad or his willingness to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel. What was known, were serious indications of on-going collaboration, as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking the Israelis and others in Kuwait.

What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched their demonstrations, world-wide, to “Stop The War”. Failing this, they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country, with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little know politician as the thrust point; Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money, creating what the clueless media called the “Dean Phenomenon”.

By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the “Hate Bush” liberals, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e. Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances, possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November and a new administration come to power we could expect to see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The Clash of Civilizations would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.

What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profound sense of patriotism spread across the country They were not expecting this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I believe that this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical mentors, V.I. Lenin admonished…”two steps forward, one step back”.

link: http://www.insiderreport.net/clash_1-2.html
 

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xpanda,

I briefly spent time helping with a start-up for my employer with the majority of our planning being done in Jubail though the actual start-up was in Bahrain. After getting sick for almost a week from a local food vendor, I had a good time.

It wasn't really a haven for westerners then and I can't imagine it being any better now though I have read that the gun situation is improving for foreigners.
 

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