Why Jose Padilla Should Matter to Everyone

Search

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
Well said, cussin'it.

As Ive stated before, my near-obsession with this case has nothing to do with any particular affection I have for Padilla, and everything to do with the principles upon which the U.S. is founded -- which includes equal protection under the law, which means all the people, all the time, no matter what. Even if the allegations against Padilla are 100% true and he is 100% guilty, it is irrelevant whether he was planning to lauch a dirty bomb, conspiring to knock off a local ATM machine, raped somebody's grandmother, drove 47 in a 25 zone, etc. The basic principles of justice do not take into account the nature of the criminal; rather, they take into account only the nature of the system itself. In order for any proposed system of justice to function, it has to be applied equally to all -- and our legal system had enough loopholes in it before the government began snatching people off the streets and holding them virtually incommunicado for nearly two years based on the sole assertion that the suspect was a vewwwy vewwwy bad boogeyman.


Phaedrus
 

I'm still here Mo-fo's
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Messages
8,359
Tokens
Phaedras,
Exactly. The importance of this fundamental right is as profound as it gets.
I just can't understand how so many people just don't get it. Lack of formal education perhaps?
Some kind of mass "Stepford" syndrome?

We only need read our history books to learn why this came to be. British soldiers during Colonial times snatching up people who were guilty of nothing, and doing whatever they pleased at the behest of the "crown"

Low and behold here we have come full circle, and quite frankly I resent the two arms of this gov't. which are duplicitous in this facisim much more than I resent the ignorant masses.

_________________________
Sure could use a trim
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
Here's the basic scoop, two years later ...

U.S.: Dirty Bomb Suspect Plotted Apartment Bombings

by James Vicini
(Reuters)

WASHINGTON -- American Jose Padilla proposed detonating an improvised nuclear bomb in the United States, but al Qaeda's leaders were skeptical he could do it and sent him on a mission to blow up apartment buildings instead, the U.S. Justice Department said on Tuesday.

The department released the newly declassified information as the U.S. Supreme Court prepared to rule on whether Padilla could be held indefinitely in a military prison in this country without the traditional protection of the U.S. legal system.

Padilla, suspected of plotting to set off a radioactive "dirty bomb," is a former Chicago gang member and convert to Islam. He has not been charged with any crime but has been held in a military prison in South Carolina for about two years.

Padilla's lawyer, Donna Newman, criticized the government for "trying him in the media" rather than bringing a case in court. She described it as "very troublesome" and said the administration was acting as "the judge, prosecutor and jury."

The information was provided in a letter written by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to Deputy Attorney General James Comey. The letter said Padilla has maintained he had no intention of carrying out the operation for al Qaeda.

At a news conference, Comey denied that the release of the information was an attempt to influence the Supreme Court, which is due to rule by the end of June on the Padilla case.

He also rejected suggestions the Padilla information was released because of criticism of Attorney General John Ashcroft for last week's vague warning al Qaeda planned an attack against the United States in the next few months.

"We have decided to release this information to help people understand why we are doing what we're doing in the war on terror and to help people understand the nature of the threat we face," Comey said.

Newman said the government had created a new form of justice. "We put them in a black hole. And when we feel like it, we release and tell information in dribs and drabs," she said.

Timing Questioned

The American Civil Liberties Union also questioned the government's timing. It said the Justice Department may be feeling pressure "to explain its unprecedented decision to detain U.S. citizens as enemy combatants."

The letter said al Qaeda figure Mohammed Atef directed Padilla in July or August 2001 to take part in "an operation to blow up apartment buildings in the United States with natural gas," and Padilla accepted the task.

The operation was "apparently abandoned" because Padilla could not get along with another al Qaeda operative with whom he was assigned to work and said he could not do the operation alone, the letter stated.

Comey said the other person was Adnan Shukrijumah, one of seven people identified by Ashcroft last week as wanted for questioning by the FBI.

Padilla and another accomplice then approached senior al Qaeda figure Abu Zubaydah about detonating in the United States a nuclear bomb they learned to make on the Internet, according to the letter.

Comey said Zubaydah and another key al Qaeda leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who has been described by the United States as the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, were skeptical of the plots involving a nuclear or a dirty bomb.

Mohammed suggested a return to the apartment building operation, with strikes in New York, although Florida and Washington, D.C., were discussed as possible targets, too, Comey said.

Comey said Mohammed wanted Padilla and his accomplice to blow up 20 apartment buildings simultaneously, but Padilla replied he might have to limit the operation to the destruction of two or three entire apartment buildings.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
Proof Negative

The Justice Department's triumphant victory over the Constitution.

By Dahlia Lithwick
Slate

With a triumphant chorus of "We-told-you-so"s, the Justice Department unveiled yesterday a seven-page document summarizing all the accumulated evil that lurks in the heart of alleged enemy combatant Jose Padilla. Why release all this information now? The folks at Justice say they were just responding to a request from Sen. Orrin Hatch. As though Hatch's was the first and only demand for some tangible piece of evidence against Padilla. ...

The DOJ insists that the timing of this release has nothing to do with public outrage about unsubstantiated warnings of stepped-up terror threats. They also say it has nothing to do with the Supreme Court's deliberations over Padilla's case, due to be decided this month. (Your instincts were right, Stephen Breyer, Padilla really is a bad guy!) Perhaps it also has nothing to do with mitigating the public horror about the information-at-all-costs ethos that led to the events at Abu Ghraib. (OK, so we torture them some, but just look at what they planned to do to us!) Maybe it also has nothing to do with the fact that the solicitor general's office, most likely unintentionally, misled the Supreme Court at oral argument in this case, with claims that this administration allowed no prisoners to be tortured, even as the government knew what had happened in Iraq. (OK, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, so we lied about the torture thing, but see how dangerous this guy is anyhow?) Something needed to be done to remind the world and the court how serious the case against Padilla really is.

The question is: Does this constitute a case against Padilla? Isn't it wacky that all this evidence—released as a sop to an American public that's about had it with secrecy, abuse, and intimidation—was itself obtained through secrecy, abuse, and intimidation? You can call it the military brig in South Carolina, or call it Abu Ghraib. But evidence procured in dank rooms, by threat of interminable isolation and coercive interrogation and without the protections of the Constitution or the Geneva Conventions, is generally hard to credit. That's why we have a Constitution.

The U.S. Constitution didn't simply hatch out of an egg one morning. Like the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights was largely conceived to correct for failures of earlier systems. In 1603 Sir Walter Raleigh was tried for treason and not permitted to cross-examine his accuser. This, it turns out, engendered unreliable evidence. The Sixth Amendment's confrontation clause was the constitutional remedy for this problem. Unremitting and unwanted prosecutorial interrogation could lead to false confessions. This made for unreliable evidence. The Fifth Amendment was, in part, the constitutional remedy for this. Years of delay prior to trials degraded evidence. The Sixth Amendment's right to a speedy trial was the constitutional remedy for this. Indefinite government detention without charges led to innocent men languishing in prison without recourse. The right to habeas corpus is thus codified in Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution to remedy this. We sometimes forget that the purpose of these and other constitutional protections is not only to let guilty guys roam free (attractive though that prospect may seem), the purpose is also to protect the quality of the evidence used in criminal trials. A conviction based on a tortured confession isn't justice. It's theater.

In his comments accompanying the release of the Padilla document, Deputy Assistant Attorney General James Comey offered the following weird little tribute to the joys of suspending the Constitution at will: Had the government charged Padilla criminally, he said, "He would very likely have followed his lawyer's advice and said nothing, which would have been his constitutional right. ... He would likely have ended up a free man." Comey's point seems to be that constitutional protections produce bad evidence, in which case we should probably get rid of the Constitution in every criminal case. What he was really saying was that if you permit them to perform unconstitutional interrogations, the administration can get the accused to say exactly what we all wanted to hear.

The evidence in this document was collected during a two-year detention, in which Padilla was in solitary confinement, never charged with a crime, and only given access to his attorney this spring. Certainly his confessions might still be reliable, along with the confessions of Abu Zubaydah and other confederates being interrogated in secret. Or they might not. Without a trial we can never know, and as Phil Carter recently observed, there can now be no trial on the strength of this evidence since it was obtained unconstitutionally.

No one at the DOJ seems even to have pondered whether the public would credulously accept the truth of a document that—by its own admission—is a product of secret government interrogations. The lesson of Abu Ghraib was that we no longer trust what happens in dark dungeons, where the rule of law has been cast aside. To reassure us, the Justice Department responds with the assurance that no one there trusts what happens in the bright light of a constitutional democracy.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
8,951
Tokens
Phaedrus said:
Well said, cussin'it.

As Ive stated before, my near-obsession with this case has nothing to do with any particular affection I have for Padilla, and everything to do with the principles upon which the U.S. is founded -- which includes equal protection under the law, which means all the people, all the time, no matter what. Even if the allegations against Padilla are 100% true and he is 100% guilty, it is irrelevant whether he was planning to lauch a dirty bomb, conspiring to knock off a local ATM machine, raped somebody's grandmother, drove 47 in a 25 zone, etc. The basic principles of justice do not take into account the nature of the criminal; rather, they take into account only the nature of the system itself. In order for any proposed system of justice to function, it has to be applied equally to all -- and our legal system had enough loopholes in it before the government began snatching people off the streets and holding them virtually incommunicado for nearly two years based on the sole assertion that the suspect was a vewwwy vewwwy bad boogeyman.


Phaedrus
As with torture, our basic system has been subplanted with massive smokescreens to cover our loss of rights and even decency. There are no more Americans, only US people now! Thanks to W and his fellow fascists!
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
Wow ... the administration is so desperate to avoid review of this case that they're actually trying to force the issue out of military court and back into civilian court, to dodge a possible Supreme Court inquiry of the administration's practices. I can hear McLellan now ... "This man is a massive, major, unprecedented threat to American babies, puppies, and the Croissan'wich, but come to think of it if we're going have to get all 'reason' this and 'accountability' that, I guess we'll have to let him go. Strike another victory for the terrorists over America."

Reminds me of when the administration attempted to force Brinkema to dismiss the case against Zacharias Moussaoui, rather than risk having to comply with a court order.

What a swell bunch of guys are running this country.


Phaedrus
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
22,231
Tokens
Lander: great post!!

The fuking war WAS INITIALLY ABOUT WMD like your genocidal leader said. When that was shown to be a false premise (like most of yours) then he said it was about our defense. When it was appartent that they were no threat then he said it was about liberation

THE DREAM has blown up in Bushs face and he has one hellva lot apologizing to do American families that have buried kids due to this dumbass military venture ...

Has it accomplished anything? YEAH, 300 BILLION DOLLARS BEING SPENT and ATTENTION DITTOHEADS:

Religious fundamentalists now have the upper hand. The secular and nationalist candidate backed by the US and Britain was humiliatingly defeated. The Shia religious coalition has won a total victory in Baghdad and the south of Iraq. The Sunni Arab parties who openly or covertly support armed resistance to the US are likely to win large majorities in Sunni provinces. The Kurds have already achieved quasi-independence and their voting reflected that.


Islamic fundamentalist movements are ever more powerful in both the Sunni and Shia communities. Ghassan Attiyah, an Iraqi commentator, said: "In two and a half years Bush has succeeded in creating two new Talibans in Iraq."


The break-up of Iraq has been brought closer by the election. The great majority of people who went to the polls voted as Shia, Sunni or Kurds - and not as Iraqis. The forces pulling Iraq apart are stronger than those holding it together. The election, billed by Mr Bush and Mr Blair as the birth of a new Iraqi state may in fact prove to be its funeral.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
1. Padilla indicted on terrorism charges
a.planned to use dirty bomb originally
b.downgraded to JUST blowing up apt. buildings
2.Tied to terrorist organization-Al Queda
3.This makes him an ENEMY COMBATANT
4.Enemy combatants can be held to end of hostilites
5.Hostilities by ALQueda have not ceased,therefore its legal for him to be held until such a time occurs (which appears to be never)-you do the math.
 

RX Senior
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
763
Tokens
BASEHEAD said:
1. Padilla indicted on terrorism charges
a.planned to use dirty bomb originally
b.downgraded to JUST blowing up apt. buildings
2.Tied to terrorist organization-Al Queda
3.This makes him an ENEMY COMBATANT
4.Enemy combatants can be held to end of hostilites
5.Hostilities by ALQueda have not ceased,therefore its legal for him to be held until such a time occurs (which appears to be never)-you do the math.

#3,#4 and #5 supercede the 6th amendment?
 

hangin' about
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
13,875
Tokens
Folks that were labelled Enemy Combatants failed to fall into one of two categories: 1. dressed soldiers of the enemy army, or 2. U.S. citizen.

Padilla is a U.S. citizen.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
ktvvegas said:
#3,#4 and #5 supercede the 6th amendment?

According to U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit,in this year- 2005,the answer is YES.
 

RX Senior
Joined
Apr 20, 2002
Messages
47,431
Tokens
I remember when this guy came into fenway and beat Pedro during interleague. Oh wait, wrong Padilla.
 

Living...vicariously through myself.
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
8,456
Tokens
RobFunk said:
I remember when this guy came into fenway and beat Pedro during interleague. Oh wait, wrong Padilla.

Was it Vinny "the ATM" Padilla?
 

919

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2005
Messages
9,360
Tokens
Tablarasa said:
WEll, stop trying to fit a big situation into a little box.

You have another thread around here saying the Bushes supplied WMD to Iraq. Yet in this one, you are screaming that there aren't any there.

You do realize these things have a shelf life, unlike twinkies. After some time they become useless. So, unless they were producing them....
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,989
Messages
13,575,853
Members
100,889
Latest member
junkerb
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com