Why does the left root against America?

[xpanda]

"If the President fails, America fails."

Try this: "If Saddam fails, Iraq fails." Do you believe that to be true? Probably not. Now, don't you also think that Iraqis would have loved the opportunity to be able to sit in front of the internet and discuss their views regarding Saddam openly with one another? I'm not comparing Bush to Saddam (although I could, but in another thread) but here's a thought: Saddam controlled his people by making it punishable by law to question his authority ... in your version of democracy, questioning the President's authority (on the basis that he knows more) is deemed unpatriotic, and is therefore punishable by social tongue-lashing.

One may be harsher than the other, but they both amount to thought control ... don't take your liberties for granted.

 

[FloydGondolli]

xpanda,

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He is saying that all the Democrat/Left opposition in the US does is take the contrary position to what Bush does or proposes (kind of like John Cleese did in the famous "I'd like to buy an Argument sketch).

The Democrat left offers no solutions to issues other than "let's reverse everything Bush does" because he is a stupid Nazi from Texas who talks funny.

So in essence, their argument can only succeed if Bush's policies and proposals actually fail. It is a very dangerous tack to take because if Bush's policy appear generally successful, and you have offered no platform other than being contrarian to Bush, you have no chance in an election versus Bush.

Despite the negative spin of the leftists her, the US Economy is booming right now, the stock market is up 38% since March and is making a steady climb toward it's all-time high. economic growth is at its highest in 20 years, construction is setting all-time records, inflation is very low, interest rates are very low and the job market is beginning to grow again based on the above.

The economic situation combined with the fact that support for the Iraq war is at about 65%, I just don't see how a Democrat can hope to prevail unless one or more of three things happens:

1. A very rapid and unexpected economic downturn.

2. A massive terrorist attack in the US

3. The Iraq situation worsening greatly.

Given the economic forecasts I doubt #1 will occur and with the capture of Saddam, #3 is getting less and less likely.

So, given their "blame Bush for everything" contrarian platform, the Democrats best chance in the 2004 election is to hope for a massive terrorist attack in US. Pretty sad I think.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[xpanda]

Earlier in this thread I remarked that Kman's question was important ... I basically reiterated what you said.

However, I still think that criticism of the current regime, whatever it may be, is terribly necessary. As much as is stupid to say if the President did it, I'm against it because of a Partisan position, it is equally negligible to say that if the President did it, then I'm all for it.

 

[FloydGondolli]

Hey criticism is fine, that what separates free countries from places like Saddam's Iraq, Iran or North Korea. All I'm saying is that it is a sad 'strategy' to base you party's future on hatred and the hope of failure. Despite what the leftists say here, Republicans never hoped Clinton's policies or military deployments would fail because that meant the country would suffer as well.

One of my central reasons for being a Republican is that I believe Republicans are Americans first and Republicans second while Democrats are loyal to their party above all else, including the country (yes I am speaking in generalities and am not saying ALL Democrats have that view).

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[D2bets]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KMAN:
So why does the left call the President an idiot if nobody's opinion is any better than another's????

He's an idiot because the Left believe's something different??????

(a) it's an opinion, (b) yes

Why doesn't the Left concentrate on making things better instead of concentrating on tearing the President down?

Aren't those goals one and the same.

Right now, the whole Left agenda is based on the President failing. If the President fails America fails. Which means the Left is rooting for America to fail. Which is my whole point, I don't understand how you could want the country you live in to fail?????

I don't know that the whole agenda is based on the President failing. That's the way you see it.

How are smear tactics good for the country? Isn't it about time someone on the Left starts offering some solutions instead of continuing to try to find problems with the Right?????

Solutions are offered all the time. With the Republican controlled Congress, Dem solutions tend to get tossed out or squelched.


KMAN<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[xpanda]

Floyd: Interesting (and bold) statement ... for what it's worth, Canadians, for the most part, are Canadians first, non-American second, non-British third, and partisan fourth. Generally, we are more cultural than political. When we watch slander ads by the various political parties, we usually just roll our eyes ... and it's rather uncommon to find an individual who ALWAYS votes for the same party. We tend to vote on issues instead.

I remember my first election in 1988 ... I voted in favour of Free Trade more than I voted for Mulroney. In this upcoming federal election, my vote will be a statement against the newly formed Alliance, more than it will be in favour of my as yet undecided contingent.

But it is very interesting how the citizens of two countries that are so close together, in so many ways, are so radically different.

 

[D2bets]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Floyd Gondolli:
One of my central reasons for being a Republican is that I believe Republicans are Americans first and Republicans second while Democrats are loyal to their party above all else, including the country (yes I am speaking in generalities and am not saying ALL Democrats have that view).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny, that's one of my reasons for being a Democrat. I've always felt that Republicans put party first above all else (and getting re-elected and lining their contributors' pockets) while Dems are for the common people and common good. Like I've said, two rational people (yes Floyd, I'll grant that you're rational

can see the same thing in very opposite ways.

And yeah, the Republicans didn't want to see Clinton fail, they just wanted to see him go down (pun intended) for a BJ. Republicans have lifted the politics of personal destruction to an artform.

 

[FloydGondolli]

"Like I've said, two rational people ... can see the same thing in very opposite ways."

I certainly agree with that and history is rife with examples of it. Unfortuantely, I think that is how most wars have started

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[FloydGondolli]

xpanda,

For many reasons, Canadian politics is so far off the radar of the average American it just never comes up. Many Republicans though have a special dislike of Chretien because he actively campaigned for Al Gore in 2000, something he should have never done.

I have travelled in Eastern Canada quite a bit over the past 20 years and lived and worked in Montreal for a year. From what I have seen, the French/Western European culture (not British though) and way of thinkng is now dominant in most of Eastern Canada whereas 10 years ago all of Eastern Canada (except Quebec) was basically "Americanized".

Agree/Disagree?

Interesting to see what someone from Hamilton would say.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[xpanda]

First, I need you to explain what you mean by 'Americanized.'

 

[KMAN]

Floyd - Great Statements.

Maybe I have not been playing close enough attention to Democratic ideas but all I hear from the Liberal press is how much of an idiot Bush is for doing such and such, yet nobody ever says this is how it should be handled.

KMAN

 

[D2bets]

KMAN, go to www.clark04.com and read 'on the issues'. All of the democrats have ideas on how things should be handled, you may disagree with them, but there are certainly ideas being offered.

 

[KMAN]

D2Bets - I took alook at some of the issues. It looks like everybody wants to resolve the same issues but just has different ways of doing it.

Bush inherited a country that was beginning to decline thanks to the dot com bust, corporate scandals and a massive terrorist attack. If you look at the US now, the economy is growing at an alarming rate, he has gotten rid of a terrible dictatorwho will no longer be a threat to anyone on the planet, and he is trying to bring al of the Al-Queda loyalists to justice.

So why is there all of this hate for Bush? Just because he believes in different ways of getting things done?????????????

Does any other Liberal have anything to add besides D2Bets?


KMAN

 

[xpanda]

Liberal-ish here ... I live about one hour away from the soil that I think Bush is about to turn into terrorists' target practice. His disregard for the international community and our definition of peace, combined with his seemingly roughshod approach to global interference, scares the living crap out of me. He may not be my president, but I have a feelig he will greatly influence my life.

 

[FloydGondolli]

xpanda,

By that I mean Ontario etc. had adopted a culture very similar to the US (I'm mainly speaking of the Mulroney years)for a time. My perception anyway.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[xpanda]

I don't know if it's fair to the rest of Canada to say "Ontario etc" when referring to adopting American cultural values ... Ontario could easily be a separate country, for all it has in common with the other provinces.

Ontario, being the economic hub of Canada, is quite conservative in its fiscal policies and can easily be compared to many US States. However, the "calming" influence of the rest of the country cannot go unnoticed. In the wake of the Mike Harris days (former Conservative Premier of Ontario) many Ontarians saw a conflict between their liberal social values and their conservative fiscal ones -- in short, the neo-cons started to see just how "American" we were becoming.

It has long been noted that Canadians have a pitiful inferiority complex to the US -- when asked to define Canadian culture, most people will automatically demonstrate how we are different from (or similar to) the States. Chretien's decision to not invade Iraq, largely due to his desire to maintain the pleasant relationship with Quebec that he fought so hard to build, in a matter of speaking gave Canadians a sense of independence that we've not had since World War II.

It is hard to imagine Canada being completely free from American influence -- after all, there is a McDonald's in every city, we watch more American than Canadian television, we pay as much attention to your politics as our own -- but the divide of pro-American vs. anti-American in Canada could easily be argued to be at its most distinct these days (was likely less black and white this time last year) and current American foreign policy, now that we know exactly where we stand in the Bush administration's eyes, will undoubtedly have a major influence on how much more "Americanized" we are willing to become.

 

[FloydGondolli]

I only mention Ontario and Quebec because those are the only two provinces I have lived and travelled in extensively. I have never been in Central or Western Canada (though the most despicable human being I have ever met in person was from Winnipeg, but that's another story)

Yes, Ontario and Quebec are certainly like two different countries, Toronto is one of my favorite cities in the world and if Hillary Clinton is ever elected President in the US, I may spend the term of her administration residing in Toronto.

Yeah I would swear Ontario and Quebec have more McDonald's per capita than the US does. I love the little red Maple Leaf they have in the middle of the big yellow "M".

In a way, I view Canada's behavior in the past year or so as that of a rebellious teenager lashing out at its parent (Great Britain) and older, stronger cousin (USA). I am hoping under Martin's guidance things will improve.

I would guess that the Iraq contract situation will be worked out soon now that James Baker has gotten France and Germany (and hopefully Russia) to agree to forgive a great deal of Iraq's debt. Frankly I see Baker as a far better diplomat than Colin Powell (though Powell is the media sweetheart). I would have voted for Baker for President over George W had he run. Canada was only included in the exclusion list because its position on Iraq was that of France and Germany and if the contract issue was being used as leverage on the debt issue, Canada had to be included. As I said before, Chretien got in bed with France and Germany and Canadian companies paid the price. I hope that with the debt issue being mostly resolved, the contract issue will be as well, Canada included.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude, 1998

 

[chonce]

Kman,

I dont like bieng labeled a liberal (I lean very much towardslliberterian principles) but I do think Bush is incredibly inept.

Bush started a war based on lies, has no exit strategy, pissed off the world community. While the economy is boosting, job rates are still embarassingly low.

By actively, and vocally debunking the Bush administration, which in my opinion is a an undeniable failure, I am exercising not only my right as a citizen in a Democracy, but also performing my duty as one. If I sealed my lips because my opinions were in direct contrast with the ones of the President, than I would be suppressing the very principles that founded this country.

Sadly, with things like the Patriot acts surfacing, the liberty that this country was founded on,the same liberty that allows, and encourages dissention may soon just be diminished.

It seems to me the only civil liberty that right wingers care about is my liberty to carry a gun. (I also support the 2nd ammendement) They just hate all the other liberties, like privacy and free speech.

 

[KMAN]

I'm sorry you are not free to speak. Me on the other can say whatever I want.

Hail to the President for the next 5 years. Great job handling the dot com bust, corporate scandals and the biggest terrorist attack on American soil ever. No other President has faced issues like this in years.

KMAN