Why do you Americans pay taxes???

[barman]

Is taxation institutionalized theft and extortion? Perhaps so, in many cases.

Is taxation legal? Yes. You have to be seriously fucking stupid to believe that wars, detention centers, and torture are legal, but somehow they just can't figure out how to make tax legal, and are playing some grand masquerade and conspiracy to hide the fact.

Is tax immoral? Yes. Is the law immoral? Yes. Perhaps so, in many cases.

For every person that gets off on some tax evasion charge by technicality or jury, there are dozens more convicted. Go google some famous tax protesters and see where they spend their time.

It's easy to avoid and minimize taxes. Hell, most expats don't even file, but that is different. Exposure and risk. Want to stop filing, move to Costa Rica.

Why do stupid instead, is there a point? Ask Wesley Snipes.

With the exception of my friendly BOLDED amendments to the above, I find this a tremendous post.

I'll note that the cases of "non-extortive", "moral" taxes would be more likely found the smaller the base becomes as in county and/or municpal taxes whch are agreed upon by the strong majority of those affected and when the ones who disagree have virtually unlimited alternatives to live and/or operate their business in a different jurisdiction which is more agreeable to their financial priorities.

Maybe if I amended SELENE's post by adding the word "federal" before "taxes" then I would agree almost in full with his entire smartly written post

 

[Derek12]

ya me deprimi todo y me puse a llorar :nohead:

Mop si supiera lo playo q se ve usando ese puta perro, le juro lo dejaria de usar.

 

[AdamSelene]

Maybe if I amended SELENE's post by adding the word "federal" before "taxes" then I would agree almost in full with his entire smartly written post

You can instead amend "income" in front of tax, I had intended to do so but the edit time limit had expired.

Although I've never lived someplace that had a state income tax, I don't really view, for example, California State income tax as being in any way better, more moral (or less legal) than Federal income tax.

 

[AdamSelene]

You can instead amend "income" in front of tax, I had intended to do so but the edit time limit had expired.

I've never lived someplace that had a state income tax, I don't really view, for example, California State income tax as being in any way better, more moral (or less legal) than Federal income tax.

Most other taxes I believe are still immoral, especially general taxes such as tariffs, sales taxes, etc. Correct way to pay for services (roads, airports, courts, police, etc) are to charge for services in as direct way as possible (like billing for garbage service and utilities); or a tax as direct as possible where billing is infeasible (e.g. gas tax = roads); and totally eliminate "general budgets" and discretionary government spending.

 

[barman]

Ayuh...after I wrote that last night I gave it a bit more thought while away from desk and myself would have included "state' taxes as being pretty bogus from a moral standpoint. I myself have never lived in a state with state income tax (only TX and FL)

 

[barman]

But most definitely wanted to echo the reminder that concealing income is not particulary difficult as a means to reduce your tax liability.

And such civilly disobedient behavior is best done quietly with little fanfare.

 

[quantumleap]

Most other taxes I believe are still immoral, especially general taxes such as tariffs, sales taxes, etc. Correct way to pay for services (roads, airports, courts, police, etc) are to charge for services in as direct way as possible (like billing for garbage service and utilities); or a tax as direct as possible where billing is infeasible (e.g. gas tax = roads); and totally eliminate "general budgets" and discretionary government spending.

Why do you consider sales tax to be immoral? I understand your point if you tax necessities. But I have heard good arguments that eliminating income tax and replacing it with a sales tax on non-essential items would encourage savings and investments.

You wouldn't be taxed on your income if you put it in savings or invested it nor would you be taxed on any increase in your investment. Only when you took out money and bought non-essential goods would you be taxed.

 

[AdamSelene]

General taxation (and a general government budget) is immoral because it always ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul, and taking a big commission on the transaction. Well, in Latin American they don't even bother paying Paul.

The only good things about sales tax are that (in lieu of income tax) it maintains individual financial privacy, it's strictly territorial, and it's indirect on individuals (it doesn't "feel" like you're paying tax).

Don't get me wrong, I prefer tariffs and sales tax to income tax; despite living in a country where cars and electronics are twice the price as in the States because of it. I'll take the zero tax on global income, zero tax on capital gains, zero tax on dividends, and zero tax on interest.

However, consider sales tax from the perspective of a retail business. So you are selling something, making a 5% margin, and there's 11% sales tax. Everything you sell, you make 5%, and the government makes 11%. Sound fair? You have all the risk, government has none. You pay all the overhead, government pays none. Even if you don't turn a profit in the end, the government is guaranteed their 11%. You can spend your life savings and go out of business, the government got their 11% of your feeble attempt. The government decides to *raise* sales tax, your effective prices go up and sales go down.

And consider it from the perspective of consumers, it's reverse-progressive taxation... the higher percentage of your income you spend, the higher percentage of your income you pay in tax. Most middle-class and below spend as much as they earn, or more (on credit).

So no, sales tax is better than income tax (for reasons mentioned above) but it isn't great at all.

The biggest problem though with general budgets and discretionary government spending, no matter how the budget is funded, is that it begets corruption, or pure political embezzlement.

Here, road tax (marchamo) and gas taxes are supposed to fix the roads. Instead they get spent on other things, and the roads never get fixed. I'd rather pay tolls that go to a private concessionaire who maintains the roads (like the beautiful toll freeway they're busy building/expanding now).

 

[quantumleap]

General taxation (and a general government budget) is immoral because it always ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul, and taking a big commission on the transaction. Well, in Latin American they don't even bother paying Paul.

The only good things about sales tax are that (in lieu of income tax) it maintains individual financial privacy, it's strictly territorial, and it's indirect on individuals (it doesn't "feel" like you're paying tax).

Don't get me wrong, I prefer tariffs and sales tax to income tax; despite living in a country where cars and electronics are twice the price as in the States because of it. I'll take the zero tax on global income, zero tax on capital gains, zero tax on dividends, and zero tax on interest.

However, consider sales tax from the perspective of a retail business. So you are selling something, making a 5% margin, and there's 11% sales tax. Everything you sell, you make 5%, and the government makes 11%. Sound fair? You have all the risk, government has none. You pay all the overhead, government pays none. Even if you don't turn a profit in the end, the government is guaranteed their 11%. You can spend your life savings and go out of business, the government got their 11% of your feeble attempt. The government decides to *raise* sales tax, your effective prices go up and sales go down.

And consider it from the perspective of consumers, it's reverse-progressive taxation... the higher percentage of your income you spend, the higher percentage of your income you pay in tax. Most middle-class and below spend as much as they earn, or more (on credit).

So no, sales tax is better than income tax (for reasons mentioned above) but it isn't great at all.

The biggest problem though with general budgets and discretionary government spending, no matter how the budget is funded, is that it begets corruption, or pure political embezzlement.

Here, road tax (marchamo) and gas taxes are supposed to fix the roads. Instead they get spent on other things, and the roads never get fixed. I'd rather pay tolls that go to a private concessionaire who maintains the roads (like the beautiful toll freeway they're busy building/expanding now).

You make a good point about the government getting their fixed percent. However, if their is no income tax people will have more money to spend on a sales tax. The government is going to get their tax. Perhaps we can agree that the sales tax is the lesser of the evils.

I agree with you that discretionary spending begets corruption. It's the nature of a government. It's up to the people to fight back to prevent this. What we have in the US is an ever-increasing sense of entitlement. Instead of fighting back the people will look to the government to take care of them by taxing the rich and productivity will suffer as a result.