who gives a f**k about the 380....

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maybe you will some day figure out that freedom isn't free!!! you and i can agree to disagree on the merits of this war, but in this country's long history we are constantly getting into unprovoked wars to aid the innocent. you are either drunk, stoned, and/or not very smart to not understand the capabilities of this dictator!!! regardless of your POINTLESS wmd argument!!!
 

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Lets see - I have been sober for over 15 years my last drink was on April 23rd of 1989 - Drugs sure a little pot in the 70's but none since. I do take vitamins tough. I also very much know the price of freedom having fought in another needless war to potect it. Aiding or helping the innocent is one thing but invading a soverign nation for oil and revenge is another, then calling it spreading democracy is very much a tradegy.


I have work to do, have a good night. wil.
 

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Hansen

Maybe someday you will figure out GWB has fooled you and Iraq is not about freedom or the war on terror
 
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Hansen:

Not true @ all with your comments regarding Kerry wanting to satisfy his VP ... let me intro you to the real problem .. known as Karl Rove:

Look at the swirling, ugly currents currently at work in this conspicuously close race. There is Republicans' history of going negative to win elections. There is Karl Rove's disposition to challenge close elections in post-election brawls. And there is Democrats' (and others) new unwillingness to roll over, as was done in 2000. Finally, look at the fact that a half-dozen lawsuits are in the works in the key states and more are being developed.
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This is a climate for trouble. A storm warning is appropriate. In the end, attorneys and legal strategy could prove as important, if not more so, to the outcome of this election as the traditional political strategists and strategy.


A GOP Disposition For Nasty Campaigns

Before this year's race, 1988 presidential race between George H. W. Bush and Michael Dukakis was well-known as the most foul of modern campaigns. The Bush campaign used Willie Horton to smear their way to the White House - with Lee Atwater playing the hardest of hardball.

Horton was a convicted murderer. Massachusetts Governor Dukakis gave him a prison furlough. Once furloughed, Horton held a white Maryland couple hostage for twelve hours, raping the woman and stabbing the man. By using these facts - and Horton's mug shot - in a heavy-handed negative advertisement, Atwater turned the election for Bush. As a Southern, especially, he must have understood how the ad catered to racial prejudice.

In the 2000 Republican primary race, George W. Bush used similar tactics against Senator John McCain. That's no surprise: Bush's political strategist Karl Rove, and Bush himself, were protégées' and admires of Lee Atwater. To my knowledge, all of Rove's campaigns have accentuated the negative - often dwelling exclusively on nasty attacks. This one is no exception.

Thus, if Bush narrowly prevails on Election Day, the Democrats are likely to be in a less than congenial mood - and especially likely to go to court. And there will doubtless be fodder for litigation, given the GOP's propensity to try to disqualify votes and voters.


Rove's Refusal To Accept Defeat: The Knee-jerk Response of Suing

And it won't only be the Democrats heading to court. Indeed, in Florida in 2000, it was Bush who sued first -- while later falsely accusing Gore of starting the litigation.

Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't merely the closeness of the tallying in what appeared to be unique circumstances in Florida that spawned litigation. To the contrary, suing is a standard operating procedure for Karl Rove when he is losing (or has lost) a race.

A recent profile of Karl Rove in the November 2004 Atlantic Monthly, entitled "Karl Rove In A Corner," examines how Rove operates in a close race. While Rove has had only a few, his tactics are never pretty.

The article describes "Rove's power, when challenged, to draw on an animal ferocity that far exceeds the chest-thumping bravado common to professional political operatives" - and notes that "Rove's fiercest tendencies have been elided in national media coverage."

Consider Rove's role in a 1994 judicial campaign for the Alabama Supreme Court. Election returns showed his candidate had lost by 304 votes. But Rove went to court - not only suing to overturn the election, but at the same time, further campaigning to garner support for these efforts.

These maneuvers went on and on and on. Rove's candidate and his opponent both appeared for Inauguration Day ceremonies, although neither was seated. Rove moved the matter from state to federal courts. And he appealed whenever he could - all the way up to the U. S. Supreme Court, which stayed the case almost a year after the election. In the end, Rove's man won -- purportedly by 262 votes.

Doubtless, Rove was similarly prepared to take Bush's 2000 lawsuits as far as necessary. Had the U.S. Supreme Court bumped the case back to the Florida Supreme Court, and allowed the recount to conclude, doubtless Rove would have again challenged the recount - all the way back up to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary.

Make no mistake: If Bush loses, and it is very close, Rove will want to litigate as long as possible, going to the U.S. Supreme Court (again) if possible.
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wilheim said:
The war is wrong and being fought for no reason. Saddam could have been taken out one way or another but the damage is done to the tune of over 1100 killed and 7000 wounded GIs

wil.
It's a little late in the day to do anything about that. What we can do is try to have a few casualties as possible from this day on. Because I don't foresee an abrupt withdrawl with Bush OR Kerry in the white house, the best way to do this might be to give our troops all the manpower and firepower they need to see this through. Secure the country, have an election, had the keys back over to the Iraqi people and say "Have a good one." Believe me when I say I'm not happy either about good Americans dying over there. If these insurgents who are trying to create chaos and disorder by murdering civilians in terrorist attacks would lay down their arms, there would be no fighting at all. There are still scumbags over there that don't want to see Iraq in a peaceful state and they don't want elections because they're afraid they won't win them. They want to rule by the gun and this thing is past the point of no return to allow them to do so.
 

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Thanks for proving Bush rushed to war and had no real plan thus needs to be voted out of office
 

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wilheim said:
but invading a soverign nation for oil and revenge is another, then calling it spreading democracy is very much a tradegy.
wil.
A soverign nation run by a dictator who had torture chambers and mass graves. A guy the Kerry and Clinton both thought had WMD's, and who doesnt think they havent been moved to Syria....was the almighty UN Security Counsel, The US and GB Govts all wrong about him having WMD's. If its a useless war ask the Iraq's who have been lifted out from the dictator's grip how useless the war is.

So wil. you actually think we went into Iraq for oil?. How original was that thought. You mean like the backroom brokered deals with Saddam the dictator in the food for oil UN SANCTIONS (that were working). For oil huh...yeah okay.

Stick to cut and paste.
 

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Pocket 1, Bush had a plan, it's just that the enemy didn't have to same plan. That's what the conflict was borne out of.
 

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wilheim said:
but invading a soverign nation for oil and revenge is another, then calling it spreading democracy is very much a tradegy.
wil.
"Sovreign nation"!!! I love how the libs try to give Saddam's mafia thug rule over Iraq international legitimacy and respect. It shows how libs would embrace and endorse anything which would enable them to seize a chance in their ultimate liberal goal of political one-upsmanship.

Bush might have saved the world for all we know. What kind of SOVREIGN NATION would Iraq be in 10 years with Saddam's sons Usay and Quasay in power with WMD's at their disposal??? The saying "Nip it at the bud" comes to mind.
 

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I thought you called it a night. If you keep posting, I'm going to start thinking you're all talk.
 

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No I just said I had work to do, done now. I am going to watch The John Stewart Show in a few minutes and get some Bush laughs.



wil.:coffeetim .
 

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things are going just fine in Iraq, in a few days we shall begin the harvest of more "insurgents" in fallujia. maybe this time when they call for a truce we wont fall for it but will finish the job.
 

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wil, I don't watch the Jon Stewart Show that much because it's turned into a liberal pep rally, but I do like the documentary-style comedy sketches they show in the beginning of the show. Steven Colbair did an interview with Al Sharpton that was hilarious and there was another Colbair piece on smoker's rights that had me rolling on the floor. A couple of weeks ago they had one on Dr. Phil that was funny as hell too. Did you see any of those?
 

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Fellas, soon we will claim victory. Do not let the radical left ruin it.
 

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learn something, some conservatives recognize that bush has duped y'all

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html

Kerry’s the One

By Scott McConnell



There is little in John Kerry’s persona or platform that appeals to conservatives. The flip-flopper charge—the centerpiece of the Republican campaign against Kerry—seems overdone, as Kerry’s contrasting votes are the sort of baggage any senator of long service is likely to pick up. (Bob Dole could tell you all about it.) But Kerry is plainly a conventional liberal and no candidate for a future edition of Profiles in Courage. In my view, he will always deserve censure for his vote in favor of the Iraq War in 2002.

But this election is not about John Kerry. If he were to win, his dearth of charisma would likely ensure him a single term. He would face challenges from within his own party and a thwarting of his most expensive initiatives by a Republican Congress. Much of his presidency would be absorbed by trying to clean up the mess left to him in Iraq. He would be constrained by the swollen deficits and a ripe target for the next Republican nominee.

It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush. To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. Because he is the leader of America’s conservative party, he has become the Left’s perfect foil—its dream candidate. The libertarian writer Lew Rockwell has mischievously noted parallels between Bush and Russia’s last tsar, Nicholas II: both gained office as a result of family connections, both initiated an unnecessary war that shattered their countries’ budgets. Lenin needed the calamitous reign of Nicholas II to create an opening for the Bolsheviks.

Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be, and his continuation in office will discredit any sort of conservatism for generations. The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy. Add to this his nation-breaking immigration proposal—Bush has laid out a mad scheme to import immigrants to fill any job where the wage is so low that an American can’t be found to do it—and you have a presidency that combines imperialist Right and open-borders Left in a uniquely noxious cocktail.

During the campaign, few have paid attention to how much the Bush presidency has degraded the image of the United States in the world. Of course there has always been “anti-Americanism.” After the Second World War many European intellectuals argued for a “Third Way” between American-style capitalism and Soviet communism, and a generation later Europe’s radicals embraced every ragged “anti-imperialist” cause that came along. In South America, defiance of “the Yanqui” always draws a crowd. But Bush has somehow managed to take all these sentiments and turbo-charge them. In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends, by businessmen and the middle classes, by moderate and sensible liberals. Never before have democratic foreign governments needed to demonstrate disdain for Washington to their own electorates in order to survive in office. The poll numbers are shocking. In countries like Norway, Germany, France, and Spain, Bush is liked by about seven percent of the populace. In Egypt, recipient of huge piles of American aid in the past two decades, some 98 percent have an unfavorable view of the United States. It’s the same throughout the Middle East.

Bush has accomplished this by giving the U.S. a novel foreign-policy doctrine under which it arrogates to itself the right to invade any country it wants if it feels threatened. It is an American version of the Brezhnev Doctrine, but the latter was at least confined to Eastern Europe. If the analogy seems extreme, what is an appropriate comparison when a country manufactures falsehoods about a foreign government, disseminates them widely, and invades the country on the basis of those falsehoods? It is not an action that any American president has ever taken before. It is not something that “good” countries do. It is the main reason that people all over the world who used to consider the United States a reliable and necessary bulwark of world stability now see us as a menace to their own peace and security.

These sentiments mean that as long as Bush is president, we have no real allies in the world, no friends to help us dig out from the Iraq quagmire. More tragically, they mean that if terrorists succeed in striking at the United States in another 9/11-type attack, many in the world will not only think of the American victims but also of the thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by American armed forces. The hatred Bush has generated has helped immeasurably those trying to recruit anti-American terrorists—indeed his policies are the gift to terrorism that keeps on giving, as the sons and brothers of slain Iraqis think how they may eventually take their own revenge. Only the seriously deluded could fail to see that a policy so central to America’s survival as a free country as getting hold of loose nuclear materials and controlling nuclear proliferation requires the willingness of foreign countries to provide full, 100 percent co-operation. Making yourself into the world’s most hated country is not an obvious way to secure that help.

I’ve heard people who have known George W. Bush for decades and served prominently in his father’s administration say that he could not possibly have conceived of the doctrine of pre-emptive war by himself, that he was essentially taken for a ride by people with a pre-existing agenda to overturn Saddam Hussein. Bush’s public performances plainly show him to be a man who has never read or thought much about foreign policy. So the inevitable questions are: who makes the key foreign-policy decisions in the Bush presidency, who controls the information flow to the president, how are various options are presented?

The record, from published administration memoirs and in-depth reporting, is one of an administration with a very small group of six or eight real decision-makers, who were set on war from the beginning and who took great pains to shut out arguments from professionals in the CIA and State Department and the U.S. armed forces that contradicted their rosy scenarios about easy victory. Much has been written about the neoconservative hand guiding the Bush presidency—and it is peculiar that one who was fired from the National Security Council in the Reagan administration for suspicion of passing classified material to the Israeli embassy and another who has written position papers for an Israeli Likud Party leader have become key players in the making of American foreign policy.

But neoconservatism now encompasses much more than Israel-obsessed intellectuals and policy insiders. The Bush foreign policy also surfs on deep currents within the Christian Right, some of which see unqualified support of Israel as part of a godly plan to bring about Armageddon and the future kingdom of Christ. These two strands of Jewish and Christian extremism build on one another in the Bush presidency—and President Bush has given not the slightest indication he would restrain either in a second term. With Colin Powell’s departure from the State Department looming, Bush is more than ever the “neoconian candidate.” The only way Americans will have a presidency in which neoconservatives and the Christian Armageddon set are not holding the reins of power is if Kerry is elected.

If Kerry wins, this magazine will be in opposition from Inauguration Day forward. But the most important battles will take place within the Republican Party and the conservative movement. A Bush defeat will ignite a huge soul-searching within the rank-and-file of Republicandom: a quest to find out how and where the Bush presidency went wrong. And it is then that more traditional conservatives will have an audience to argue for a conservatism informed by the lessons of history, based in prudence and a sense of continuity with the American past—and to make that case without a powerful White House pulling in the opposite direction. George W. Bush has come to embody a politics that is antithetical to almost any kind of thoughtful conservatism. His international policies have been based on the hopelessly naïve belief that foreign peoples are eager to be liberated by American armies—a notion more grounded in Leon Trotsky’s concept of global revolution than any sort of conservative statecraft. His immigration policies—temporarily put on hold while he runs for re-election—are just as extreme. A re-elected President Bush would be committed to bringing in millions of low-wage immigrants to do jobs Americans “won’t do.” This election is all about George W. Bush, and those issues are enough to render him unworthy of any conservative support.
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November 8, 2004 issue

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GAMEFACE said:
Fellas, soon we will claim victory. Do not let the radical left ruin it.
I'm ready to accept whichever candidate gets elected on Tuesday. That seems to be too much to ask from the liberal posters.
 

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petre said:
http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html


But this election is not about John Kerry.....

It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush.
That's what is so weak about Kerry's run. Kerry going around saying "Elect me because the other guys is doing a lousy job" comes up a little short. It's sad that Kerry is the best the Dems could come up with.

As far as the liberal concerns that polls reflect that 98% of the people in the middle east have negative views of the U.S.....WAKE UP. The world has never liked Americans before, so why are they supposed to start now? What the poll didn't show is that they hate everyone else in the world too.
 

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If I were you, and I'm so glad I'm not, I would be more concerned about the fact that a weak Dem like Kerry is going to take down monkey boy bush.

And it makes me laugh that neocons all now believe that it doesn't matter if America has global allies anymore because dipshit has squandered all support America had following 9/11. It's as if you had your choice, it would be for America to always go it alone instead of having global support. Good thinking, although it's what I have come to expect out of people who think Bush has done a good job.
 

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American said:
wil, I don't watch the Jon Stewart Show that much because it's turned into a liberal pep rally, but I do like the documentary-style comedy sketches they show in the beginning of the show. Steven Colbair did an interview with Al Sharpton that was hilarious and there was another Colbair piece on smoker's rights that had me rolling on the floor. A couple of weeks ago they had one on Dr. Phil that was funny as hell too. Did you see any of those?

"This Week in God" is my favourite. Last night: "Christianity: Home of the Original Comeback Kid."

You're right about it seeming like a Liberal pep rally, tho. I love Stewart (in no small part because he hates Bush so much) but c'mon ... he said I think ten words on the Dan Rather thing. He was better a year ago when he was less partisan and picked on everyone equally.
 

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