W

[CHOPTALK]

Bad spot, with 4 callers preflop to the initial raise of 80 the pot was just not too valuable at the time to risk it, you barely invested any chips, there is only 480 in the pot before the initial, you could have been severely dominated if someone flopped a set which is always a possibility, even if you hit the diamond you are not risk free! I reckon the pot after the 4 shoves is uber yummy but not worth the risk at that stage with the blinds so low and the relative chances of you having a better spot with a better hand afterwards...

I disagree with your post flop assessment.

The board was not paired.

And calling 80 with a suited A with position along with 3 limpers was not bad.
I know I probably had the worst hand of the 4 at the time of the call but I was making that play to see how the flop developed.

It would have been very easy for me to see where I stood after the flop which is important.

Hitting an A high flush on an unpaired board is the easiest post flop read in all of poker.
I was one card away from being unbeatable barring the board pairing and I had more then enough odds to take my chances.

 

[CHOPTALK]

Sorry to derail the thread.
Back to the cubs.
I guess I should have started another thread.

 

[HarryCaray]

I disagree with your post flop assessment.

The board was not paired.

And calling 80 with a suited A with position along with 3 limpers was not bad.
I know I probably had the worst hand of the 4 at the time of the call but I was making that play to see how the flop developed.

It would have been very easy for me to see where I stood after the flop which is important.

Hitting an A high flush on an unpaired board is the easiest post flop read in all of poker.
I was one card away from being unbeatable barring the board pairing and I had more then enough odds to take my chances.

Yeah obviously you're not "dominated" by sets, you have enough equity against sets to make the call. The problem becomes when one or more other players is also drawing diamonds, cutting your outs.

I'm still calling though.

 

[pocketrockets]

I disagree with your post flop assessment.

The board was not paired.

And calling 80 with a suited A with position along with 3 limpers was not bad.
I know I probably had the worst hand of the 4 at the time of the call but I was making that play to see how the flop developed.

It would have been very easy for me to see where I stood after the flop which is important.

Hitting an A high flush on an unpaired board is the easiest post flop read in all of poker.
I was one card away from being unbeatable barring the board pairing and I had more then enough odds to take my chances.

A4 suited for 80 is certainly a good call, I wouldnt call that post flop when everybody shoved... I would in a sng most likely, maybe even a cash game, for an mtt, I find that to be a bad play. No pro would call in that situation post flop in the WSOP Main Event.

 

[HarryCaray]

A4 suited for 80 is certainly a good call, I wouldnt call that post flop when everybody shoved... I would in a sng most likely, maybe even a cash game, for an mtt, I find that to be a bad play. No pro would call in that situation post flop in the WSOP Main Event.

The situation would probably never arise in the WSOP main event because it's highly unlikely that anyone is dumb enough in a 10k buy in to shove 4920 into a 320 pot, and it's even more unlikely you would get 2 other tards calling.

But if it did I can assure you most pros would call there. If they're loose enough to be calling preflop, they're calling the flop.

 

[HarryCaray]

Sorry to derail the thread.
Back to the cubs.
I guess I should have started another thread.

You should post at 2+2. I'm very active over there.

 

[CHOPTALK]

The situation would probably never arise in the WSOP main event because it's highly unlikely that anyone is dumb enough in a 10k buy in to shove 4920 into a 320 pot, and it's even more unlikely you would get 2 other tards calling.

But if it did I can assure you most pros would call there. If they're loose enough to be calling preflop, they're calling the flop.

The original raiser who was first to act after the flop had AA.
I guess he decided to shove right there after the flop because he saw the 2 diamonds on the board and he wanted people like me with FDs to get the hell out and I certainly would have if the other 3 would have folded.

One of the clowns that called had J10 J was the top card on the board after the flop. LOL
And the other had a lower FD then me.

Not a single person had a set.

The J10 guy was completely nuts, and the Q high FD was also nuts.

 

[HarryCaray]

Yeah obviously you're not "dominated" by sets, you have enough equity against sets to make the call. The problem becomes when one or more other players is also drawing diamonds, cutting your outs.

I'm still calling though.

See what I mean? I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption we're up against something like a set, an overpair, and another diamond draw.

If that is the case you're in pretty rough shape and don't quite have the equity you need to make this call mathematically correct. It's closer than I thought on initial glance and might actually be a fold.

Personally I'm still going for the gusto though.

 

[pocketrockets]

Fold is the right play man, calling is very tempting, but is the wrong play, mathematically.

 

[pocketrockets]

And player 3 had J10 not 10-10... So that will change his equity drastically

 

[CHOPTALK]

A4 suited for 80 is certainly a good call, I wouldnt call that post flop when everybody shoved... I would in a sng most likely, maybe even a cash game, for an mtt, I find that to be a bad play. No pro would call in that situation post flop in the WSOP Main Event.

You see I'm the opposite.
I would have folded that hand on the first hand of an SNG.

SNGs is all about survival.
MTTs are about accumulation.

If 4 people are all in on the first hand of a 9 player SNG that means after that hand there will only be 6 players left and 3 of those 6 are getting paid.
The ICM calculations in an SNG in that situation screams fold.

But MTTs are much more about accumulation that SNGs are.

The real money in MTTs is finishing very high in the money not just cashing.

So taking the risk getting a monster stack early in a huge MTT is much different then getting a big lead in a SNG.

 

[HarryCaray]

And player 3 had J10 not 10-10... So that will change his equity drastically

Yeah, it will improve it.

I ran that scenario before I saw chop post what they had.

If he is against an overpair, set, and another flush draw (like in my example), he has slightly less than needed equity to call.

If he is against an overpair, top pair, and another flush draw, he has enough.

 

[CHOPTALK]

And player 3 had J10 not 10-10... So that will change his equity drastically

HC was just simulating probable hands in that situation.
There is no way for anyone to know exactly what everyone had before hand he was just using hands that would be hands that you would normally see in that situation.

As it turned out my odds were not as bad as his simulation but that just ended up being a product of having some dumb players at my table making less then smart plays.

 

[HarryCaray]

Either way it's mathematically close, so it's not horrible to call or fold. It's a matter of

a) how big of an advantage it actually is if you win the hand (i.e. do you play a big stack properly)
b) how big of a skill advantage do you have over the field (so you can wait for better spots)
c) how important the buy in amount is to your bankroll

 

[CHOPTALK]

PR.
The more I think about it why in the world would you make that call in a SNG but you would fold that hand in a MTT?
No disrespect that makes zero sense to me.

I would have auto folded that hand in a SNG.

What am I missing?

If you fold that hand in a SNG there will only be 6 players left and you will be tied for 2nd.

And chances are the person who wins the 4 way all in is probably a donk and you will have plenty opportunity later on to chip away at his stack.


SNGs are about survival.
MTTs are about accumulation.

2 completely different strategies.

 

[pocketrockets]

PR.
The more I think about it why in the world would you make that call in a SNG but you would fold that hand in a MTT?
No disrespect that makes zero sense to me.

I would have auto folded that hand in a SNG.

What am I missing?

If you fold that hand in a SNG there will only be 6 players left and you will be tied for 2nd.

And chances are the person who wins the 4 way all in is probably a donk and you will have plenty opportunity later on to chip away at his stack.


SNGs are about survival.
MTTs are about accumulation.

2 completely different strategies.

My thinking here is that the sngs I play range from $5 to $20... the buy in for this mtt is $120+... I dont know how that affects your bankroll but it certainly is not an option for me if I pretend to have any BR management... I don't mind calling that and losing on a $5 sng.

 

[CHOPTALK]

My thinking here is that the sngs I play range from $5 to $20... the buy in for this mtt is $120+... I dont know how that affects your bankroll but it certainly is not an option for me if I pretend to have any BR management... I don't mind calling that and losing on a $5 sng.

Im going to start a new thread to talk about this.

 

[pocketrockets]

Fair enough!

 

[HarryCaray]

w

 

[HarryCaray]

We might as well just sticky this.

3 in a row.