The Wedding Party Massacre - A New Mi Lai.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some of the names mentioned are on record for wanting or not caring if American soldiers die. Do you feel that way ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure who you are talking about, but of course I don't feel that way, just the opposite. Quite frankly in the 90's I was not really involved in politics very much, for that matter I am not involved now except in this forum. So I really am not in a position to compare administrations. What got me interested was the outright robbery that was perpertrated on the American people in the 2000 election. Get real - having the Supreme Court involved was a joke. That is history now, today we face greater dangers, spiraling global oil prices could cause a world wide economic depression. American prestige is at an all time low around the globe. Once again the nations poor are sending their sons and now daughters off to fight on far away soil. Transparency is non-existent in the White House. The rich get richer and the poor poorer. Sure I am concerned for lots of reasons.


wil.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by el diablo:
Some people on here think that Iraqi's are justified in resisting this so-called invasion and occupation. ....Well maybe so .....but who in their right mind would think that they ...would continue to kill and mame their own people. They bomb and shoot Iraqis everyday .....civilian, police guards, etc.
Think for one second ....if some country tried that here ....would we run around shoot our own ???? Hell no ...maybe someone gets caught up in a firefight or something, but not purposely killing our own people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find it strange that you don't understand that they are attacking collaborators.

The French did it in WW2, the Vietcong did it.

The bottom line is that we shouldn't be there in the first place.
Its not our country, culture, or anything else that's 'ours'.

I have/had no problems with Afghanistan.
Bosnia was fine by me.
Cambodia would have been a good idea.
So there are exceptions for 'invasion'.

I am not into anyone getting killed for something that's stupid and pointless.
More dead people on both sides in Iraq will change absolutely nothing. nada. zip.

-------------------------------------

I have an additional point/question.

How come Afghanistan is going so smoothly compared to Iraq??

Because they only really removed the top guys and they let the social infrastructure remain.

Iraq has 120,000 heavily armed warm bodies in-country and its STILL an unstable mess.

Its not rocket science.
Its THEIR country, let THEM get on with it.
The faster our people get home the less dead and maimed ones there will be.

GI Joe and his gun, from the land of apple pie and ice cream, is not a part of Iraqi social infrastructure.

Stick a bullet in Saddam (dies in custody), reinstate the Baath party, and send our guys home.
Top level contacts with whoever is left in charge can pump in $20-$40 billion for physical infrastructure rebuilding ($200 billion cheaper than the occupation in cash alone.) Tie it directly to oil exports (gotta keep that oil flowing).
Iraq stays as a cohesive country, instead of the new Lebanon.

We all get on with our lives.

------------------------------

The biggest problem is this dumbass administration trying to impose a government that they 'like' on Iraq.

Its just not going to happen.
Its going to be an Iraqi government, and Iraqis will decide what it will be.

So we might not like that.

Well that's just Tough Shit.
Lifes' like that, innit.

[This message was edited by eek on May 24, 2004 at 07:35 AM.]
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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BEELZEBUB: I am referring to the people who spit out this hate for Bush, America, and our soldiers. I am talking about

Lander
Xpanda
eek
Banned for Life
Everfresh
A2345exxx
Lt. Dan
barman

BAR: That would indeed make a fine group photo if we ever have the chance (and why was I not listed FIRST?)....but speaking for myself and for what I've read of the other listed names, there's not an Anti-American in the group.

Here, let me spell it out for you and you can bookmark this page in case you get confused later:

I LOVE AMERICA, MY COUNTRY

(cue God Bless America)

Now that we've got that out of the way, I will perhaps confound you by saying that I Fear My Government, especially when it's used to kill people.

I decry terrorism. I decry airplanes being used to fly into buildings. I decry dropping cluster bombs on civilians from 20,000 feet.

I don't hate Bush. He's easy enough to replace.
We have a great system here in the USA for getting rid of leaders we don't like. Right now, I think there's more people who want to fire Bush than hire him. If I'm wrong, I'll confidently move ahead to 2008.

EL D: I really believe by seeing what you post and discuss that Americans and American soldiers dying does not phase each of you one bit.

BAR: Actually, seeing American soldiers dying does faze (scored A+ in Homonyms class at Richardson High) me. I hate seeing my neighbors, brothers and sisters dying at the altar of our current misguided foreign policy, thus my criticism.

And yes I am happy to be one that helps assure we see 'the other side of things', for if we only accept the U.S. government feed, we are fools.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And let's not forget CUSSIN: Those war lovers KILLED NEARLY 4000 innocent people ON OUR SOIL!

BAR: Well actually it was just barely over 2800, but what's a thousand extra when you're feeling vengeful?

C: Good luck trying, as they murder your children, rape your wife and torture you,

BAR: Damn, if I was as scared as you are, I might join forces with you. But to date, I haven't been worried for one second that anyone from Iraq is going to either murder my children or rape my wife. I'm sorry if you're kept awake by such grim visions.

As for any disgust I might have had with Clinton (and frankly I never had any), it's moot in 2004. He's running a business in New York now and has no say in how many of my neighbors, brothers and sisters will be sent into the killing fields of the Mideast.
 

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Well, since I made your list, I should probably respond. As a non-American to begin with, I don't place extra value on the life of an American citizen over the life of a non-American citizen. I think that goes without saying. I do, however, place a higher moral expectation of the American administration, since its premise for this war committed itself to moral righteousness.

Canadian foreign policy has been benevolent and diplomatic for the duration of my life, and it amazes me that other countries don't share this view. The US has engaged itself in many dubious interventions in the past decades and Iraq is only the latest, and arguably the most damning.

However, your assertion that my anti-Bushism is actually anti-American is a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Since I started posting here, Bush was in power ... further, I generally only discuss the issues surrounding the Iraq war ... should Kerry be elected, his foreign policy will be largely the same, although his motives may not be so Armaggedon-ish.

I am anti-aggression, not anti-American. There is a difference.
 

I'm still here Mo-fo's
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilheim:
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040524/lthumb.lon11105240040.iraq__attack_lon111.jpg
TV Image shows an unidentified man playing a keyboard at a wedding party in the remote desert area near Mogr el-Deeb, Iraq, 5 miles (8 km) away from the Syrian border, Tuesday, May 18, 2004.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fellows, I do believe that Yamaha makes rocket launchers now!? They make everything else.
dance.gif


_________________________
Sure could use a trim
 

I'm still here Mo-fo's
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Bar, yes you are right in correcting me. I made a mistake in the number (if you check my previous posts I have stated "nearly 3000". None the less the amount was nearly 3000 not 4000 as I posted. My error, it was simply a lazy error and I apologize.

_________________________
Sure could use a trim
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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Well Cussin, it was also a nitpicky correction on my part. Your overall point was not ignored.
 

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Interesting bit from the Seattle Times on the ongoing conflicting stories about the site of the bombing ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Some Survivors of U.S. Air Attack Appear in Video of Wedding Party

by Scheherezade Faramarzi
(Associated Press)

2001936885.jpg


Videotape of a wedding party shows guests relaxing Tuesday on the carpeted floor of a large tent in the village of Mogr el-Deeb, Iraq, about five miles from the Syrian border. Guests say the party was attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people.

RAMADI, Iraq — The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly colored silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.

The videotape obtained yesterday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes last week, killing up to 45 people.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than 12 survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many on the wedding-party video, which runs for several hours.

The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck early Wednesday.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb, about five miles from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations scattered around the bombed-out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car, decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

APTN also traveled to Mogr el-Deeb, 250 miles west of Ramadi, the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen, along with bits of what appeared to be the remnants of ordnance, one of which bore the marking "ATU-35," similar to those on U.S. bombs.

A water tanker truck can be seen in the video shot by APTN and the wedding tape obtained from a cousin of the groom.

The singing and dancing seem to go on forever at the all-male tent set up in the garden of the host, Rikad Nayef, for the wedding of his son, Azhad, and the bride, Rutbah Sabah. The men later move to the porch when darkness falls. Children, mainly boys, sit on their fathers' laps; men smoke an Arab water pipe, finger worry beads and chat. It looks like a typical, gender-segregated tribal desert wedding.

As expected, women are out of sight, but according to survivors, they danced to the music of Hussein al-Ali, a popular Baghdad wedding singer hired for the festivities. Al-Ali was buried in Baghdad on Thursday.

Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud, his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt he wore when he performed.

As the musicians played, young men milled about, most dressed in traditional white robes. Young men swayed in tribal dances to the monotonous tones of traditional Arabic music. Two children held hands, dancing and smiling. Women are rarely filmed at such occasions, and appear only in distant glimpses.

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who swept through the area found rifles, machine guns, foreign passports, bedding, syringes and other items that suggested the site was used by foreigners infiltrating from Syria.

The videotape showed no weapons, although they are common among rural Iraqis.

Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that children died in the raid although a "handful of women" — perhaps four to six — were "caught up in the engagement."

"They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft," he said Friday.

However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children relatives said had died. Bodies of five were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed.

Four days after the attack, the survivors' memories — and injuries — remain painful.

Haleema Shihab, 32, one of three wives of Rikad Nayef, said that as the first bombs fell, she grabbed her 7-month-old son, Yousef, and clutching the hands of her 5-year-old son, Hamza, started running. Her 15-year-old son, Ali, sprinted alongside her. They managed to run for several yards when she fell, her leg fractured.

"Hamza was yelling, 'Mommy,' " Shihab recalled. "Ali said he was hurt and that he was bleeding. That's the last time I heard him." Then another shell fell and injured Shihab's left arm.

"Hamza fell from my hand and was gone. Only Yousef stayed in my arms. Ali had been hit and was killed. I couldn't go back," she said from her hospital bed in Ramadi. Her arm was in a cast.

She and her stepdaughter, Iqbal — who had caught up with her — hid in a bomb crater.

Soon American soldiers came. One kicked her to see if she was alive, she said.

"I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me," Shihab said. She said the soldier was laughing. When Yousef cried, the soldier said: "No, stop," Shihab said.

In all, 27 members of Rikad Nayef's extended family died, most of them children and women, the family said.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sure would be nice to know the truth.


Phaedrus
 

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It certainly would. I am trying to stay opened minded while waiting to see how the story develops. I know I posted a couple of articles and pics. that does not mean I will not give US forces the benefit of the doubt if they produce hard evidence to back their statements that there was no wedding, or the wedding was a cover for insurgents.


wil.
 

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Monday, May 24, 2004 10:59 p.m. EDT
Iraqi 'Wedding Party' Had Terrorist Ties

Members of a so-called Iraqi wedding party attacked by U.S. forces last week near the Syrian border were heavily armed, carried Syrian cash and held passports from Sudan, Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman Dan Senor revealed Monday.

"Keep in mind what we found at the site of the 'wedding party,'" Senor told Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly.

"We found Sudanese passports, we found Syrian currency, we found a stockpile of weapons," he explained. "We found individual phone numbers to Afghanistan, Syria and other countries that often serve as bases for terrorist operations."

Senor said the size of the "wedding party's" weapons cache was so large that it raised questions about whether the group was actually manning a "way station" for terrorists traveling into Iraq.

He also questioned film footage obtained by The Associated Press showing the alleged wedding celebration taking place in broad daylight - since the attack itself came around 2 a.m. in the morning.
 

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Mr. Devil,

You have sided w/ Satan. Lt. Dan loves and respects any man or woman who fights for our country regardless of the war. We only follow orders which go up the chain of command to the top. Unfortunately we have VERY POOR leadership at the top and are fighting a senseless and uncalled for war at present. To say that anyone is un-American because they disagree w/ a proven gang of cowards is obsurd.

In a few days I will have the honor (something punks like you lack) of sharing the company of what is left of a battalion of Marines. We lost 540 KIA (4 companies & H&S) and had 3 MOH recipients. I will get to talk to the grown up children of our Battalion CO and a close friend and fellow officer who lost their lives there.

Never accuse a man who has put his life on the line of being un-American or anti- military. People like you that have led sheltered lives have the right to decend only by the actions of those who went before. Freedom has the taste that the protected will never know. And again, I may not agree with your politics but will always fight to protect your right to practice them.

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan
 

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Lt. Dan, you go way past disliking our current leadership. Your continued postings support an Un-American type view. I guess you didn't want to be in Vietnam since it was a "political war" ? We took it to Iraq to solve a problem that was going to raise its ugly head at some point.

People on here want to tie Iraq into the 9/11 situation ....and say "hell" they didn't do it ....or didn't help do it. They say ..."well, I was not worried that Iraqis would storm my front yard in Florida (or Iowa, or New York, or Utah ....where ever)"......Fine, maybe they didn't have one damn thing to do with it. We sent troops to take care of that problem. The reason we are in Iraq are for the continual rule breaking by Saddam against the UN. We didn't have inspectors (because Saddam kicked them out) in Iraq for a long time. What was going on then. Saddam did have chemical/biological weapons and was trying to get more. He was trying to develop a nuclear weapons program. He had missiles that violated UN sanctions. YES, maybe we went a little early ....but better safe than sorry. He was a major threat and had his sons lined up to take over after his death. It was not going away. This is a different time and different age. The main reason Saddam had X number of body doubles and heavy security was not mainly for the worry of foreign countries coming after him (some would have liked to ..USA, Iran, etc.) but for all the radical Muslims over there. Saddam was not very religious and they disliked that. He was brutal with them ....1) because he is a nut 2) to keep the radical Muslims suppressed.

Bottom line is that it was going to be a breeding ground for future terrorist and we did something pro-active for once.

And maybe you should take a lesson from your buddy --Lander ......people only attack another person with name calling when they don't have points in their discussion.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt. Dan:
Never accuse a man who has put his life on the line of being un-American or anti- military. People like you that have led sheltered lives have the right to decend only by the actions of those who went before. Freedom has the taste that the protected will never know. And again, I may not agree with your politics but will always fight to protect your right to practice them.

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Garbage as usual. The uniform doesn't make anyone patriotic. It doesn't inoculate your future actions that harm the military. When a man consistently votes against new weapons programs that will save American soldiers lives, it is irrevelent if he served in Vietnam.

Give me a former chickhawk who now supports the military in both words and deeds and I'll show you someone who the armed forces will support. Far better to be that than a "war hero" who thinks his past service allows him to ignore his modern day brother in arms.
 

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saddam was no more of a direct threat to the US than the Easter Bunny!

Typical neo-con tactics : discredit anyone who disagrees or is getting close to the truth!

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan

p.s. do you really think that the military leaders, veterans or current active military respect Junior or wouldn't have the same or greater respect for Kerry?
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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SHOTGUN: When a man consistently votes against new weapons programs that will save American soldiers lives.

BAR: Name one weapons program of the past 25 years that has 'saved American lives'.

Last I checked, dropping bombs from 20,000 feet has been going on since the 40s.

The only improvement I've seen on U.S. weapons systems in my lifetime is ways to kill more people faster.
 

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Innkeeper,

I think it might be one of those neocon oxymorons.

Semper Fi,

Lt. Dan
 

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