Serious Question for Theists

[Illini]

I was raised going to church every Sunday. I didn't take it seriously, but I did believe it to be the truth, and following God was something that I planned on doing later in life. Then I made the decision right after high school. About 6 years later, doubt started to creep into my mind, and I realized that maybe it wasn't the way. I pretty much didn't have anything to do with Christianity for about 7 years. I'm still working out my doubt issues, but for about the past 2 years, I have called myself a Christian again. Ultimately, after many years of contemplating life, I just don't think the world can satisfy. I don't think that Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods and Tom Brady are "living the dream." I think they're all asking themselves, "is this all there is?" I saw a 60 minutes interview with Brady, and he said exactly that. That is what the Bible says about the world, and I do believe it to be true. So if the world cannot satisfy a man, what were we made for, and what is our purpose? I believe that we were created to be in a relationship with God, and that we will never be fulfilled until the day we die and enter heaven. Now I still doubt for many moments each and every day, but I do believe.

It's hard to say what could have or would have happened if I had been raised a different way. But life is not good enough for this to be all that there is. It can be fun at times, but most of what we do is trivial and meaningless, and the best things in life like family and friends......they all are going to die very soon, just as I am.

"A man is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

 

[Dave007inVegas]

Guys make sure you all get Baptized or you will not enter the gates of Heaven ..

To all the Muslim and Hindu kids out there who didn't get baptized God says "sorry about that" ..

:lol: I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus but if you’re a Catholic you get to go to Limbo where you have to sit around and wait for god to decide he’s had enough and comes back to settle the score.

Then and only then do you get to go to heaven. :drink:

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

I may be wrong, but I think the Catholic Church no longer considers Limbo part of their doctrine.

 

[JoeFalls]

I may be wrong, but I think the Catholic Church no longer considers Limbo part of their doctrine.

oh yes they do & you can pay $$ now, so you can out later. :think2:

 

[festeringZit]

I may be wrong, but I think the Catholic Church no longer considers Limbo part of their doctrine.

I think Dave was confusing Limbo with Purgatory.

In Roman Catholic theology, Limbo is where unbaptized infants go (or old testament believers), purgatory is where some go temporarily until
they further "purge" themselves of their sins, until God decides they
can make it into heaven.

I don't believe in either concept.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

Yeah, that Purgatory and Limbo is pure nonsense.

But talking donkeys on the other hand...

 

[kingbill]

Yeah, that Purgatory and Limbo is pure nonsense.

But talking donkeys on the other hand...

Exactly how can someone pick and choose parts of a religion and say it's correct.

 

[festeringZit]

Exactly how can someone pick and choose parts of a religion and say it's correct.

I don't.

Roman Catholicism adds a bunch of crap to the Bible, I choose
not to believe in the crap they made up.

 

[festeringZit]

Yeah, that Purgatory and Limbo is pure nonsense.

But talking donkeys on the other hand...

Almost as bad as jumping up and down with glee, like the
Darwinists did when it was announced that a 3 lb lemur fossil was
the missing link in human evolution.

 

[Dave007inVegas]

I think Dave was confusing Limbo with Purgatory.

In Roman Catholic theology, Limbo is where unbaptized infants go (or old testament believers), purgatory is where some go temporarily until
they further "purge" themselves of their sins, until God decides they
can make it into heaven.

I don't believe in either concept.

No confusion here Zit. I replied to baptism not the minor sins. Although I don’t practice Catholicism or any other religion for that matter I was raised a Catholic and unless things have changed in the last 50 years, no baptism = limbo, minor sins = purgatory. See that’s the feel good part, if you sin and don’t make it to confession before you croak you can do your time and still make it to heaven. Pretty good deal, don’t you think? Of course if your remaining family puts a little more in the collection plate every Sunday that also helps.

Much like you I don't believe in either concept. :toast:

 

[Michelangelo]

I was raised a Catholic which included attending parochial schools into college. Somewhere in high school I began to lean agnostic as there were many Catholic teachings that didn't make sense to my logical mind. Somewhere in early adulthood I basically stopped going to church except for on the Highest Holydays when I try to observe the tradition I was raised in.

So I do not pay a lot of attention to the Institution of the Catholic Church. And I continue to have ny differences with some of their teachings.

But I try not to get hung up with those differences. Actually I rarely think about them much. Instead I focus on the positives my Catholic upbringing has given me. The Ten Commandments are good rules for conducting one's life. This society and world would be much more civil if everyone tried to observe them as I do. In doing so I feel like I am following God's rules. But really that is irrelevant. As I said they are good rules for a healthy society.

As for my agnosticism adopted somewhere in high school, it is no longer my position. I believe there is Greater Power. Without getting into the specifics of my life, my experiences have led me back to being a believer as I have been guided through what for many would be life defeating circumstances. Consequently I do believe a Greater Power watches out for me.

Back to Catholicism. It is one of many religions. It happens to be the one I was born into and I see no compelling reason to leave and search out another because I believe virtually all religions are flawed in some respect. But I also think virtually all religions help to grow their patrons into healthier people by sharing basically the same code inherint to the Ten Commandments.

I do see the world coming apart in ways that would be unthinkable say fifty years ago (or at any time preceding that), a time when virtually all Americans and most others throughout the world did practice one religion or another.

So to me "the fear of God" is a good thing and in the past kept most to civil conduct.

I often wonder how non-believers actually form their moral code. Sadly I believe that although I am clear that some manage to, many never get the moral code imbedded, and consequently chase whatever is in their selfinterest or whatever feels good, not what feels right for the larger world of which they are a part, which is essentially the embodiement of what most religions teach.

So I'm trying to answer your question as candidly as I can Kingbill. I hope my personal perspective has some value to your understanding going forward.

 

[punter]

The Ten Commandments Bible list — God's law of love
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”


Interesting that to find the list I had to use 3 sites that were interested in 1.saving my sole or 2.getting my money before I found one that would just let me download the list.

Then as you see the first four were kind of a commercial for Jehovah. The last 6 are common sense methods that you must use to have a civilized life. Strange that it would take Moses several days up on a mountain talking to a burning bush to come up with this.

 

[SmallDaddy]

I don't.

Roman Catholicism adds a bunch of crap to the Bible, I choose
not to believe in the crap they made up.

Like the part where one day they made Jesus to be son of god

 

[Michelangelo]

First, did you bet Texas punter?

There ya go. Well those aren't exactly the Ten Commandments as I was taught them but close enough.

You could eliminate the first four but here's the thing. Those first four drill home the point that there is a God from Whose dictate the last six come. This stuff was drilled into me early and often by church, school, and home, and honestly to a large degree by the media as well as the Church had a very strong influence there as well when I was growing up, and where I was growing up, Irish Catholic, Italian Catholic, Boston.

So in learning those last six "rules of civil conduct" the implication was that God would punish you severely if you strayed in a big way, mortal sin.

This is what I learned. And even through my agnostic period, where there was a greatly reduced fear of a God that I wasn't sure existed, the last six were embedded in me (and many others by the way) to the point where they became who I am today and who I was through all the transitional periods of my life.

Now I should make one thing clear, a concept that really is not understood by many here, the moral code is embedded and it is my rational goal to adhere to it, but that does not mean that I get it right all the time. I certainly don't. So when you criticize, say our latest public transgressor, Mark Sanford, what is so often missed on this forum is that although his acts are incompatible with the family value mantra, it does not mean that he does not necessarily believe in family values. It simply means that he transgressed from what he believes in because his personal demons got the best of him. But I did hear his mea culpa loud and clear. Too loud and clear for me actually. So I would assume, if he truly has the moral code embedded in him, he will try to get things right. But it doesn't mean he will. He may be fighting the demons of infidel passion for the rest of his life. His is a very common form of transgression. I don't have to tell anyone here.

The point is, aiming to get it right, and getting it right, are not the same thing.

So my question is how does one get the code embedded if one does not have the Commandments drilled home in layer after layer of childhood?

Hope ya bet Texas punter. They are your boys are they not?

 

[punter]

I pull for them but they are tough to figure so I seldom bet their games.

 

[Michelangelo]

Need Zona to catch the Rocks for a 6-2 day. All dogs, a few pretty big. Yahoo!

 

[punter]

Great! it woulda been a good day for a dog bettor such as yourself.

 

[kingbill]

So to me "the fear of God" is a good thing and in the past kept most to civil conduct.

I often wonder how non-believers actually form their moral code. Sadly I believe that although I am clear that some manage to, many never get the moral code imbedded, and consequently chase whatever is in their selfinterest or whatever feels good, not what feels right for the larger world of which they are a part, which is essentially the embodiement of what most religions teach.

So I'm trying to answer your question as candidly as I can Kingbill. I hope my personal perspective has some value to your understanding going forward.

Thank you for your honest answers, too often when we discuss this topic it breaks down after a post of two with people calling each other idiots.

I would say that now, in our more enlightened society we could move beyond the fear of eternal damnation to keep a society civil.

How many of the 10 commandments are actually crimes? don't kill, don't steal. The parts about coveting the other guys things is what has made America so successful, if my neighbor has something kick-ass, and I want it, I go out and work hard and make money to buy one, the economy moves forward.

 

[punter]

Er, Bill I think when it warns about coveting your neighbor ass it dosent mean that you cant get an ass just like his, its warning you against that very ass.

 

[kingbill]

So what day is the Sabbath and who is going to hell the people who say Saturday is the Sabbath there by not keeping the True Sabbath Sunday holy or is it the other way round?