Saints' Sean Payton says he tested positive for coronavirus

[SheriffJoe]

Would you have given Brady 90m over three years at 43? I know the going rate for shitty QBs is still 20m+ but still...

Rumor has it he wanted more input in the playbook as well as player personnel. Easy to see why Belichick let him walk, although this power struggle between these two GOATs dates back to the Garappolo trade. At the time, Kraft stepped in and that was the end of that.

I dunno, at this point in his career, it seems Brady is more concerned with promoting the Tom Brady brand more than anything else - very un-Brady like imo.

 

[AngelMartin]

Tom Brady in Tampa will resemble Johnny Unitas in SD. It is over and he will be the last to know it.

No way, the game of football has changed since those days. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Brady puts up 30 TD's and throws for 4000 yards if he is healthy all year in Tampa Bay.

 

[PatsFan1283]

That isn't really what I'm talking about though.

I'm just saying

A. I'm more bearish than most on the Pats this year (as of this writing, we don't even know their QB yet)

B. Cassell '08 season is noisy for variety of reasons and BB will be subject to the same fragility that other NFL coaches have to deal with and

C. I'm well aware of how bad the team was that Brady had around him last year and give him some benefit of the doubt, Arians got an MVP season out of Palmer in 2015, they have some really good young offensive weapons and I think the energy/crowd around that situation could be very good for a year (shades of Gretzky bringing the Kings to the finals? I'm not a hockey fan)

But yes, that season could just be a harbinger of things to come and he could be headed towards Manning '15 season. He is 43 afterall.

As far as if NE should've kept him or not? .....Probably an easier question to answer when we see the direction they go.

I actually see it the other way, I don't think Brady wanted to be back. I think he saw Gronk is gone, Edelman is 34, the recent draft picks haven't been good and he wanted to try a different challenge on his way out the door. He also knows NE is thinking beyond him and they aren't going to mortgage future years for his last few years (Tampa Bay perhaps will)

Perhaps he jumped ship at the right time you could say....

 

[PatsFan1283]

Not saying he is gonna be the GM in Tampa or anything but he probably has some legitimate assurances they will do what he wants. Trade picks for veterans, go after guys he wants or can convince to take less $, sign guys no one else wants because they are bi-polar and could pull an OJ at any moment but he thinks they can play (AB) etc

When you are the team with the worst winning percentage in NFL history, listening to the Quarterback with the best winning percentage doesn't seem like the worst idea.

 

[REDEYE]

That isn't really what I'm talking about though.

I'm just saying

A. I'm more bearish than most on the Pats this year (as of this writing, we don't even know their QB yet)

B. Cassell '08 season is noisy for variety of reasons and BB will be subject to the same fragility that other NFL coaches have to deal with and

C. I'm well aware of how bad the team was that Brady had around him last year and give him some benefit of the doubt, Arians got an MVP season out of Palmer in 2015, they have some really good young offensive weapons and I think the energy/crowd around that situation could be very good for a year (shades of Gretzky bringing the Kings to the finals? I'm not a hockey fan)

But yes, that season could just be a harbinger of things to come and he could be headed towards Manning '15 season. He is 43 afterall.

As far as if NE should've kept him or not? .....Probably an easier question to answer when we see the direction they go.

I actually see it the other way, I don't think Brady wanted to be back. I think he saw Gronk is gone, Edelman is 34, the recent draft picks haven't been good and he wanted to try a different challenge on his way out the door. He also knows NE is thinking beyond him and they aren't going to mortgage future years for his last few years (Tampa Bay perhaps will)

Perhaps he jumped ship at the right time you could say....

NE has always been great at restocking their team.. not sure why this coming year would be any different.. Combine with that defense and the greatest coach of all time , I would have stayed in NE .. better chance of getting another ring imo.. now if the Pats get a very good QB at a significantly better price then what Tom was going to get , that would change my opinion

 

[PatsFan1283]

NE has always been great at restocking their team.. not sure why this coming year would be any different.. Combine with that defense and the greatest coach of all time , I would have stayed in NE .. better chance of getting another ring imo.. now if the Pats get a very good QB at a significantly better price then what Tom was going to get , that would change my opinion

Restocking their team around arguably the best QB of all time. This is the ultimate rising tide that lifts all boats. Mistakes become minimized (plenty of draft busts last 20 years), assets become magnified (Gronk isn't Gronk w/o TB12, Randy Moss reviving his career, OL's easier to coach up because he gets rid of the ball so fast, defense can be molded to play certain styles) etc, etc....This isn't just a Brady thing, it is all great QB's. But because NE not only had Brady, they had Belichick to understand all this. The rest was history.

Maybe they find their Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young sooner than later but I do think people have gone a little far in thinking Belichick is some type of football magician. I don't think anyone outrunning the Jims and Joes >>> Xs and Os thesis by that much. As great as he is.

And you've said this before, they obviously ran pure with the AFC East thing (moreso from 2011-2018, 2001-2010 it was competitive but people tend to forgot that since they've been so good for so long), how long does that last?

 

[Michelangelo]

You've covered it all in this thread PatsF.

One thing I'd like to add re Brady going to Tampa Bay.

Truly great players elevate the whole team they play for. I saw Brady do this when he took over for Bledsoe. The whole team responded. Compare the stats of the first two games that year, piggy backed on the stats of the previous year, to the stats after Brady took over. Night and day on both sides of the ball culminating in a winning team very different than the loser of the previous. There was only one significant change - Brady. Brady will demand maximum effort and precision out of his offensive teammates. They will respond. The Defense will also play better. They will see that they are a part of a whole new team with a whole new attitude. They will also play their balls off. They won't want to hear "if Tampa Bay only had a defense". Yes, I think attitude is a huge factor in NFL football.

And to those of you who think Brady is done, I'll bet right now that he exceeds 30 TD passes this year assuming they get in a full 16 game schedule. He ain't done. This is not Peyton Manning. Any takers?

 

[Mobdeeper7239]

Will OJ Howard continue to be hands of stone with Brady who loves Te’s

Cant be right?

 

[Michelangelo]

Will OJ Howard continue to be hands of stone with Brady who loves Te’s

Cant be right?

If OJ Howard continues to be a bust with Brady, he'll still have Cameron Brate. Brady would have loved to have had Cameron Brate in New England last year. Imagine that offense if OJ Howard begins playing like the player they thought they drafted.

 

[NorthernStar]

Against an easy schedule with pretty much the same core on offense that went 16-0 the year before with a tough schedule. Look it up, they lost to most of the good teams they played that year.

And then you throw in Belichick's record w/ Cleveland and his record w/ Bledsoe at QB (5-13) and it leads me to this post I had typed out...

I've always said the best QB is better than the best coach. Coaching is more important in football than the other sports but you need talent.

What did Shanahan win w/o Elway? What did Seifert do in Carlina? What did Walsh do at Stanford? Jimmy Johnson at Miami? Knoll wasn't so great in the 80's after all the HOFers retired, Gibbs comeback in '04 with the Skins isn't being written about anytime soon. Parcells didn't win a playoff game after '98 despite the fact he didn't retire until 2006....NFL Coaching is the ultimate in mean regression exercises.

And I think it'll be harder for Belichick to run his notoriously tight ship when he doesn't have Brady buying in. In a lot of ways, I think he has no idea what he is in for. That always helped Popovich as well, no one on the Spurs could deviate from the core goal much when Tim Duncan was all in.

And another thing, these teams have been waiting to kick BB's ass for a long time.

Patsfan...one thing about me is I am always consistent. It takes talent to win in all sports but I think of all of the sports the coach of a football team has the most effect on the outcome of a game. Baseball...Bobby Cox prevented the Braves from winning more championships. The pitching staff he had and the starting lineup. You could have wrote that down every day and made zero moves and win 90 plus games. Hockey I really dont know how they effect the game other than the lines they put together and typeof play they want...dump and chase. Basketball I think Phil Jackson is the most overrated coach in history. If the triangle offense was so good everyne would copy it. He had the most talented player on the court every night: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kobe Shaq. Put him the coach of Knicks today and they dont make the playoffs. What he didnt do was get in the way of the players and their egos. Once the ball is in play things change quickly and the best players should win. Another basketball example is Dean Smith. How overrated was he? He refused to use his timeouts. Team on a 20-0 run and he wouldnt call a timeout....but hey he had them at the end of the game. Another one was his dumb 4 corner offense. I have the best 5 players on the court I want as many posessions and shots as possible because odds are I will win. Hell I could beat Steph Curry in a free throw contest if it was one shot. He finally misses one and I make it. But if the contests were 100 shots...I would never win. Smith won an NCAA with Perkins, Worthy and Jordan. Three NBA HOF players. Not winning with them would have been a bigger joke.

Now in terms of football. There are 22 starting players. Pick the top QB right now and put them Washington and they were outscored by 170 points and won 3 games. What would they win...5 games at best?

On the other hand unlike other sports the head coach has a direct impact on the game. You can call plays to set up other plays. What you decide to do impacts all 22 players. If you can improve the play of a certain amount of players you will have a bigger impact than upgrading your qb. If the strength of your team is run...then run. If you are weak in man to man..play zone. You can be creative and change the game. I remember when Florida State was not good but improving. Florida State was playing I believe Miami Florida who was number one in the country. Close game and fourth and 8 on his own 15. Calls a fake punt and gets a first down. You miss your an idiot but a 3 td dog you call that and make it you have a chance to win. The ended up losing by less than a TD but more importantly covered the spread.

 

[PatsFan1283]

No one is saying coaching isn't hugely important in football. The point is the gap between the best coach and the others isn't quite as big as everyone now thinks it is because of Bill Belichick's incredible 20 year run.

NE D had many down years during his run, they just also had Tom Brady.

 

[NorthernStar]

No one is saying coaching isn't hugely important in football. The point is the gap between the best coach and the others isn't quite as big as everyone now thinks it is because of Bill Belichick's incredible 20 year run.

NE D had many down years during his run, they just also had Tom Brady.

Hard to know how much they actually helped cement the others legacy.

Belichick had failed at Cleveland as his first gig as a head coach. So maybe he learned from that which is definitely possible.

Brady on the other hand was nothing special in college at Michigan. So with the same argument he improved with age.

If I could go back 20 years I would take the coach. I do get that having a GOAT at qb for for 20 years is extremely valuable to a franchise.

Together they made the other look better. They also benefitted with a certain amount of luck too. I think their division has been the worst in the NFL the last 20 years. They won some Superbowls the should have lost (Seattle, Atlanta) The only one I can think of that they won and should not have won was St Louis they were a big underdog. The one they lost to the Giants....I thought they were maybe the best team in history.

I get to give Packer fans shit that they have basically wasted 20 plus years with tow HOF qb's and have 2 superbowls. Missed the opportunity for 5-6 in that time frame.

 

[REDEYE]

Hard to know how much they actually helped cement the others legacy.

Belichick had failed at Cleveland as his first gig as a head coach. So maybe he learned from that which is definitely possible.

Brady on the other hand was nothing special in college at Michigan. So with the same argument he improved with age.

If I could go back 20 years I would take the coach. I do get that having a GOAT at qb for for 20 years is extremely valuable to a franchise.

Together they made the other look better. They also benefitted with a certain amount of luck too. I think their division has been the worst in the NFL the last 20 years. They won some Superbowls the should have lost (Seattle, Atlanta) The only one I can think of that they won and should not have won was St Louis they were a big underdog. The one they lost to the Giants....I thought they were maybe the best team in history.

I get to give Packer fans shit that they have basically wasted 20 plus years with tow HOF qb's and have 2 superbowls. Missed the opportunity for 5-6 in that time frame.

Your last 2 posts were spot on and can't think of a thing that I would remotely argue with.. Big Packers fan here.. probably didn't hear your take from several years ago. Did you like having Farve as your QB in Minnesota... Only jersey I have ever owned.. so was rooting for Minny that year.. had a 30/1 ticket too.. heartbreak city.....

 

[CarolinaKid]

if they have nfl this year, it maybe one of the most crapshoots yrs in the nfl with so many changes across the board.

 

[SheriffJoe]

No one is saying coaching isn't hugely important in football. The point is the gap between the best coach and the others isn't quite as big as everyone now thinks it is because of Bill Belichick's incredible 20 year run.

NE D had many down years during his run, they just also had Tom Brady.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about this. Belichick has mastered the art of the steal - signing under the radar talent on the cheap, then letting them walk once they develop egos and demand big bucks. The list is endless...Welker, Seymour, Branch, Law, Garappolo. How many of them went on to have great careers after leaving New England's well oiled machine? As a Patriot, Belichick was won pretty much with anyone as his QB...Brady, Garappolo, and yes, Cassels. The only reason I mentioned Cassels is because... well, it's Cassels. Edelman was a 7th round pick, and the GOAT was a 6th round pick. Obviously he knows how to spot and develop talent.

Andy Reid in my mind is a shitty coach. Terrible at game management and his team looked unprepared and trailed throughout most of the playoffs, but somehow his superstar QB kept pulling a rabbit out of his hat late in games and they won. Sure, it happens, but this isn't the norm.

At 43 in decline, Brady is taking a huge gamble leaving Belichick and McDaniels. I suspect at some point when things go south we'll start to hear stories about how much he didn't want to leave etc. He won't win another Super Bowl, that's for sure.

 

[NorthernStar]

Your last 2 posts were spot on and can't think of a thing that I would remotely argue with.. Big Packers fan here.. probably didn't hear your take from several years ago. Did you like having Farve as your QB in Minnesota... Only jersey I have ever owned.. so was rooting for Minny that year.. had a 30/1 ticket too.. heartbreak city.....

I loved having Favre as our QB. The guy has that intangible that you cant coach. When he walks into the huddle everyone knows he is in charge and can lead the team. He is tough as nails and just a huge competitor. He was a gunslinger. Sometimes that cost him but would take him on my team any day.

Compare him to Rodgers. Rodgers numbers are way better. Problem is I think he is an arrogant ass. I dont think his teammates like him either. It is like it is never his fault. You know their are some personality issues when he doesn't talk to anyone in his family. I couldnt ever imagine having some disagreement with my parents that I would never have spoken with them again. That says something about his character. I would describe him like AJ Preszinski. If he is on the other team you hate him....if he is on your team you just hate him a little less. Talking to some huge Packer fans...Rodgers is becoming less and less liked.

Favre on the other hand was loved by his teammates and fans. He had their respect and it was hard when they made a change even though it probably was the right move from a football/salary cap etc. move.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Yeah, he's great at his job. His job just became a lot harder because he doesn't have an elite QB anymore (probably didn't either way because of age but I disgress) Like many other great coaches throughout the history of the game.

NE 5-13 w/ Bledsoe at QB, 2-0 with Jimmy, 11-5 w/ Cassell...Cleveland tenure speaks for itself.

This isn't an argument against him, it is an argument for the limitations and fragility of coaching dominance and needing elite talent to win. Which is well chronicled throughout the history of the game, if Belichick is that much of an outlier we'll findout soon enough.

 

[NorthernStar]

Your last 2 posts were spot on and can't think of a thing that I would remotely argue with.. Big Packers fan here.. probably didn't hear your take from several years ago. Did you like having Farve as your QB in Minnesota... Only jersey I have ever owned.. so was rooting for Minny that year.. had a 30/1 ticket too.. heartbreak city.....

Forgot to tell you. Did you ever have a sport pager back in the day? Guy from Wisconsin owned that company. I used to be a guest handicapper on the monthly sports handicapping contest. He would ask me to enter their contests. I got a free pager and paid for winning. In 1992 he sent me a football signed by Favre that I still have. I have picture of Favre signing the football too that came with the ball and a case for the ball. I almost gave it to a Priest that I thought did a great job and was a huge Packer fan. Probably should have done it.

 

[REDEYE]

Forgot to tell you. Did you ever have a sport pager back in the day? Guy from Wisconsin owned that company. I used to be a guest handicapper on the monthly sports handicapping contest. He would ask me to enter their contests. I got a free pager and paid for winning. In 1992 he sent me a football signed by Favre that I still have. I have picture of Favre signing the football too that came with the ball and a case for the ball. I almost gave it to a Priest that I thought did a great job and was a huge Packer fan. Probably should have done it.

yes , probably 4 of them if I remember .. still have one as an souvenir from back in the day ….. good story.