Rickey Henderson, should be selected on everyones HOF ballot today

wilheim · Jan 12, 2009

Just for the record how the 500 plus sports writers voted.

Player Total Votes Percentage
R. Henderson 511 94.8%
Jim Rice 412 76.4%
Andre Dawson 361 67.0%
Bert Blyleven 338 62.7%
Lee Smith 240 44.5%
Jack Morris 237 44.0%
Tommy John 171 31.7%
Tim Raines 122 22.6%
Mark McGwire 118 21.9%
Alan Trammell 94 17.4%
Dave Parker 81 15.0%
Don Mattingly 64 11.9%
Dale Murphy 62 11.5%
Harold Baines 32 5.9%
Mark Grace 22 4.1%
David Cone 21 3.9%
Matt Williams 7 1.3%
Mo Vaughn 6 1.1%
Jay Bell 2 0.4%
Jesse Orosco 1 0.2%
Ron Gant 0 0%
Dan Plesac 0 0%
Greg Vaughn 0 0%

TomGshotput · Jan 12, 2009

Rice was great at driving in runs. Partly because he played in a great hitters park. Partly because he had Boggs, Evans and some others ahead of him. Mostly because he was a good hitter. Good isn't Hall-of-Fame. And even with the park and lineup advantage he only ties Allen. I do agree that Rice was better at driving in runs than Santo, Minoso, Raines, Evans, Trammell, Torre, Wade Boggs, Ozzie Smith, Sandy Koufax and most players from baseball history. But in most every other area, Rice falls short. And for his career as a whole, he falls short of the Hall-of-Fame standards

Likewise the won-loss record of a pitcher is based a lot on how many runs the lineup can score (also the guys behind him who catch the ball have a little to do with it to). Had those guys been merely average among all teams, rather than below average, his won-loss record would have been far better. Had the Twins and Indians had another starting pitcher for all those 685 games, they would have been far worse off

wilheim · Jan 13, 2009

The Jim Rice 11 year dominance of baseball

Major league leaders in runs from 1975-86:

Player Runs
Mike Schmidt* 1,194
Jim Rice 1,098
Dave Winfield* 1,069
George Brett* 1,021
Robin Yount* 995

Major league leaders in hits from 1975-86:

Player Hits
Jim Rice 2,145
Steve Garvey 2,121
Cecil Cooper 1,975
George Brett* 1,961
Robin Yount* 1,933

Major league leaders in extra-base hits from 1975-86:

Player XBHs
Mike Schmidt* 803
Jim Rice 752
George Brett* 719
Dave Parker 682
Dave Winfield* 679

* Hall of Famer

wil.

wilheim · Jan 13, 2009

Where does Jim Rice stand in Red Sox history - click on link.

billhill999 · Jan 13, 2009

Jim Rice should have been in 10 years ago.

Those who argue Dewey Evans for HoF must put Bernie Williams in the same sentence.
Williams averaged basicly the same amount of homers per season, hit for a higher average, got on base at a higher rate, stole more bases.........

Dewey was the better defender.

p.s. Evans was one of this Yankee fans favorite Red Sox of all time.

TomGshotput · Jan 13, 2009

When Evans played there were fewer runs scored than when Bernie Williams played, so each hit, walk and homerun was a little more valuable. He also played in over 500 more games. Account for those and it is clear that niether are deserving of the Hall-of-Fame

Wilhelm, of the players in those lists with * next to their name, they all had at least four or five more good years outside of 75-86. Had Rice done that, unquestionably he would have been in on the first ballot. But he didn't

Where does Joe Carter rank on similar lists for years 1986 to 1996?

Where does Albert Belle rank on similar lists for 91-2000?

How about Rocky Colavito during his peak years?

It takes more than 12 good years to make the Hall-of-Fame, especially when you consider he was the best player on his own team only twice

Where does Rice rank on those lists for outs made? How about times on base? As you are so fond of outfield assists, where does he rank for outfield putouts?

Again, while hits and homeruns tell a lot, they still only tell a fraction of what a ballplayer did. And the runs and RBIs are based a lot on the other players in the lineup. If you refuse to look into other parts of the sport, you cannot fully understand what is required to win

wilheim · Jan 13, 2009

TomGshotput

Regarding making outs Dwight Evans made 6965 in his career for 49th on the all time list.

Rice made 6221 during his career and is not in the top 100.

Rice averaged 190 hits a year over a 16 year career for 100th all time in the category of career hits.

Evans averaged 152 hits a year over a 20 year career and is not ranked in the top 100 in career hits..

In MVP points over his career Jim Rice is ranked 29th all time (Barry Bonds is #1)

Dwight Evans is not in the top 200.

I am not going to spend all day looking up stats for players like Albert Belle.

The actual criteria the MLB Hall of Fame uses to judge whether a player is eligible is the following:

Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Jim Rice's career was outstanding in all areas mentioned. Other players had shorter careers such as Sandy Koufax who only won 166 games in the majors but is in the HOF (compared to Blylevelen's 287). Take Louis Aparicio, he is in with a lifetime .262 average.

There are dozens of other players who are lacking in certain areas. Rice had 11 great years in a row and IMHO deserves to be in the Hall no matter what Joe Carter did between 1986 and 1996 or what Albert Belle did in the 90s.

This nonsense about what other players did in the lineup is meaningless, look at all the Yankees in the Hall of Fame. Using your logic none of them should be in because their team won the World Series or American League pennant almost every year from 1930 to 1965.

All of Rice's stats are here to judge and when it is all said and done they are Hall of Fame numbers no matter how you look at it or try to twist it with rational like how many outs did he make.

Outs Made
All Time Leaders
'Top 100'

Name Outs Rank
Pete Rose 10,328 1
Hank Aaron 9,136 2
Carl Yastrzemski 9,126 3
Cal Ripken, Jr. 8,893 4
Eddie Murray 8,570 5
Rickey Henderson 8,510 6
Dave Winfield 8,422 7
Robin Yount 8,415 8
Brooks Robinson 8,340 9
Craig Biggio 8,272 10
Luis Aparicio 8,110 11
Willie Mays 8,056 12
Paul Molitor 8,040 13
Rabbit Maranville 7,887 14
Rafael Palmeiro 7,857 15
Lou Brock 7,823 16
Omar Vizquel 7,761 17
Ty Cobb 7,718 18
Stan Musial 7,704 19
George Brett 7,673 20
Reggie Jackson 7,659 21
Andre Dawson 7,621 22
Al Kaline 7,594 23
Frank Robinson 7,528 24
Ozzie Smith 7,528
Rusty Staub 7,509 26
Harold Baines 7,482 27
Tony Perez 7,462 28
Eddie Collins 7,319 29
Barry Bonds 7,313 30
Vada Pinson 7,304 31
Steve Finley 7,285 32
Ernie Banks 7,261 33
Honus Wagner 7,251 34
Joe Morgan 7,174 35
Bill Buckner 7,146 36
Tris Speaker 7,119 37
Gary Gaetti 7,108 38
Graig Nettles 7,096 39
Max Carey 7,080 40
Nellie Fox 7,080
Darrell Evans 7,075 42
Dave Parker 7,055 43
Willie Davis 7,051 44
Bert Campaneris 6,999 45
Ken Griffey, Jr. 6,999
Luis Gonzalez 6,973 47
Billy Williams 6,969 48
Dwight Evans 6,965 49
Buddy Bell 6,955 50
Dave Concepcion 6,932 51
Roberto Alomar 6,914 52
Sam Crawford 6,880 53
Roberto Clemente 6,877 54
Rod Carew 6,857 55
Sammy Sosa 6,809 56
Doc Cramer 6,787 57
Gary Sheffield 6,780 58
Mel Ott 6,771 59
Carlton Fisk 6,767 60
Jake Beckley 6,763 61
Bill Dahlen 6,739 62
Chili Davis 6,737 63
Al Oliver 6,736 64
Tommy Corcoran 6,709 65
Harry Hooper 6,687 66
Steve Garvey 6,672 67
Tim Raines 6,670 68
Tony Gwynn 6,662 69
Larry Bowa 6,647 70
Ted Simmons 6,639 71
Sam Rice 6,638 72
Julio Franco 6,609 73
Mickey Vernon 6,608 74
Paul Waner 6,608
Fred McGriff 6,604 76
Lou Whitaker 6,599 77
Frankie Frisch 6,590 78
Nap Lajoie 6,589 79
Lave Cross 6,586 80
Wade Boggs 6,566 81
George Davis 6,555 82
Joe Carter 6,551 83
Don Baylor 6,510 84
Mike Schmidt 6,490 85
Bobby Wallace 6,484 86
Ivan Rodriguez 6,481 87
Eddie Mathews 6,478 88
Jeff Kent 6,434 89
Zack Wheat 6,434
Luke Appling 6,418 91
Marquis Grissom 6,411 92
Harmon Killebrew 6,399 93
Alan Trammell 6,388 94
B.J. Surhoff 6,360 95
Tim Wallach 6,355 96
Red Schoendienst 6,353 97
Ryne Sandberg 6,347 98
Brett Butler 6,322 99
Ron Santo 6,293 100
Name Outs Rank
Current Through 2008 Season

No Jim Rice.

I am done with this thread, if you don't want to believe a player who is in the same class as Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams belongs in the HOF then you just have a poor knowledge of how the game is played.

wil.

SaltyVeteran · Jan 13, 2009

I think Wil is Jim Rice

TomGshotput · Jan 13, 2009

Why use 1975-1986 for some stats (like homeruns), but an entire career for others (like outs)?

wilheim said:
I am done with this thread, if you don't want to believe a player who is in the same class as Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams belongs in the HOF then you just have a poor knowledge of how the game is played.

If Rice had one fewer homerun and 20 fewer singles Albert Belle would have been in the same class. Do you really think that one homerun and 20 singles in 1989 is what moved Rice from Albert Belle level to Ted Willaims level?

He is at the very bottom of those players in two stats. That is far different than the same class. Those are also the only nine players with more homeruns and a higher batting average than Juan Gonzalez. Do you really think he is in the same class, too?

I understand your refusing to answer any more questions, but on this I am curious

TomGshotput · Jan 13, 2009

From 75 to 86 Rice made 5298 outs, Evans made 4541

Just because Evans went on to have three very good years in 87, 88 and 89 and continue to play into the 90s does not change that. The fact that Rice doesn't make the top 100 is because he was washed up after 1986 and out of the game so soon after. To not consider that is twisting things around

Aparicio was perhaps the absolute worst position player the writers selected to the Hall-of-Fame. Why should the mistakes from 25 years ago be used to justify the mistakes now?

Sandy Koufax did far more to help the Dodgers than Rice did to help the Red Sox. Not sure anyone could disagree with that

What other players do in the lineup is important for runs scored and RBIs. I never said it was important for determining weather a player deserves to be in the Hall-of-Fame or not. I have already agreed that Rice was very good at driving in runs. I simply can't understand why you refuse to agree that there is so much more to the sport than that

wilheim · Jan 13, 2009

TomGshotput

From 75 to 86 Rice made 5298 outs, Evans made 4541

Natrually Rice made more outs during that 12 year stretch because he batted 1201 more times and played in 103 more games than Evans. Which works out to Rice reaching base by a hit 454 more times than Evans during the exact same period on the same team.

When it comes to The HOF you have to know your numbers.

Sandy Koufax as great as he was only had four great years - 1963 thru 66 when he retired due to arm trouble. During the other 8 years of his 12 year career he was 68-60. So your argument that you have to play x amount of years to qualify is out the window.

Using Aparicio is just an example of one HOFer whose numbers can't come close to those that Rice put up. HOF is HOH regardless if you played in the 50s, 60s and 70s like Aparicio did (he retired after the 73 season as a Red Sox and missed being a teamate of Rice by 1 year). Another HOF player who played for multiple teams (4), something Rice never did, something the Hall looks at when determaning eligibility.

Regarding Belle and Gonzales the jury is still way out on both of them as far as performance enhancing drugs go. They are in the same class as Sosa, Palmiero and McGwire etc.

Rice played long enough to be 99th or 100th (depending on what encyclopedia you check) in the total hits for a career list out of thousands of players over the years.

He is 29th in MVP votes for a career in baseball not just the AL.
89th in career slugging in all of baseball history.
55th in career home runs all time.
67th in total bases all time.
56th in RBIs all time.
45th in sacrifice flies all time.

He is 89th all time in what is described by Bill James as Hall Of Fame worthy. The system asseses how likely a player is to make the HOF based on his career --100 means a good possibility and 130 is a virtual cinch.

Here are the top ten and their point total and Rice at #89:

1. 454 Stan Musial*
2. 451 Ty Cobb*
3. 423 Hank Aaron*
4. 422 Babe Ruth*
5. 372 Willie Mays*
6. 354 Ted Williams*
7. 353 Barry Bonds
8. 352 Lou Gehrig*
9. 349 Rogers Hornsby*
10. 330 Alex Rodriguez
89. 144 Jim Rice*

* In HOF

Evans not listed in top 200. Dick Allen is #152 with 99 points just as an example.

wil.

FairWarning · Jan 13, 2009

The Bill James HOF Model is a very good one.

TomGshotput · Jan 13, 2009

Never once have I made any arguement about playing x number of years. Simply that the total contributions of all years must be at the level the writers have set over the past 70 years. Koufax easily meets that. Had Rice done as much to help the Red Sox over 12 years as Koufax did to help the Dodgers for his 12, Rice would be deserving

wilheim said:
Natrually Rice made more outs during that 12 year stretch because he batted 1201 more times and played in 103 more games than Evans. Which works out to Rice reaching base by a hit 454 more times than Evans during the exact same period on the same team.

When it comes to The HOF you have to know your numbers

So why did you go so far out of the way to point out that Evans made more outs in his career than Rice without mentioning the huge difference in plate appearances?

Aparicio also was a driving force behind bringing the stolen base from near extinction to a primary weapon, even before Maury Wills. He also played a huge role in integrating the league for Latin players. If the Hall-of-Fame is to truly celebrate baseball history it must go much deeper than only two or three numbers. If the Hall-of-Fame is to be nothing more than a list of players with lots of hits, homeruns and RBI, than certainly Rice belongs. I much preferred it when it was the former

(and hasn't playing for multiple teams always hurt players when it comes to making the Hall-of-Fame, see Raines, Dawson, Allen, Blyleven, Darrell Evans, Grich)

The metric used by Bill James does nothing to describe a players worthiness of being in the Hall-of-Fame. All it does is describe their likelihood of making it (to include all veterans committee's questionable selections). Huge difference

wilheim · Jan 14, 2009

Rice was a lot more than just a power hitter like say Rocky Colavito.

Rice is the only player in major league history to record over 200 hits while hitting 39 or more HRs for three consecutive years. He is tied for the AL record of leading the league in total bases for three straight seasons, and was one of three AL players to have three straight seasons of hitting at least 39 home runs while batting .315 or higher. From 1975 to 1986, Rice led the AL in total games played, at bats, runs scored, hits, homers, RBIs, slugging average, total bases, extra base hits, go-ahead RBIs, multi-hit games, and outfield assists. Among all major league players during that time, Rice was the leader in five of these categories (Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt is next, having led in four).

I would call that helping your team in several different ways, go ahead RBIs, extra base hits, games played, outfield assists, runs scored, slugging average, multi hit games 200 hits and 39 or more homers for three straight seasons (only player ever to do it). The closest player to Rice during this period is first time HOF candidate Mike Schmidt. How about 406 total bases in 1978 the most in the AL sine Joe Dimaggio's 418 in 1937, if that isn't helping your team win what is?

Another thing is Rice being a lifelong Red Sox, the only future HOFer on the horizon that can claim to be a one team player is Mariano Rivera. Something to think about when you look at players whith great talent like Manny Ramirez and Pedro Martinez, not to mention the controversial these days Roger Clemens.

Jime Rice is also a wonderful humanitarian to this day. Show me players like Albert Belle or Juan Gonzales that can claim these accomplishments.

Rice was associated with a variety of charitable organizations during his career, primarily on behalf of children, some of which have carried on into his retirement. He was named an honorary chairman of The Jimmy Fund, the fundraising arm of the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, in 1979, and in 1992 was awarded that organization's "Jimmy Award", which honors individuals who have demonstrated their dedication to cancer research.

Rice is also active in his support of the Neurofibromatosis Foundation of New England. Rice's involvement with Major League Baseball's RBI program (Reviving Baseball in Inner Cities) resulted in the naming of a new youth baseball facility in Roxbury, Massachusetts in his honor in 1999. A youth recreation center in Rice's hometown of Anderson, South Carolina is also named in his honor. Rice was granted a great gift and has done plenty to give back to the game and to the community in general.

Whether you like it or not when they retire Rice’s number, (the Red Sox should put up a plaque on the outside of the Green Monster: “Ted Williams - Carl Yastrzemski - Jim Rice - Hall of Famers.”) it is now official, Red Sox fans can speak of Jim Rice in the same sentence as Teddy Ballgame and Yaz. Their three great Hall of Fame leftfielders over a 50 year period.

You mention Louis Aparicio and his leading the way for Latin players in the majors, while now the Red Sox who for years during the Yawkey era were reluctant to play Afro American ballplayers finally have an Afro American in the Hall of Fame.

Jim Rice is in some very elite company of Boston Red Sox players who have won MVP awards:

Dustin Pedroia 2008
Mo Vaughn 1995
Roger Clemens 1986
Jim Rice 1978
Fred Lynn 1975
Carl Yastrzemski 1967
Jackie Jensen 1958
Ted Williams 1949
Ted Williams 1946
Jimmie Foxx 1938

Red Sox Hall of Fame roster.

Jimmy Collins
Joe Cronin
Bobby Doerr
Dennis Eckersley
Jimmie Foxx
Curt Gowdy (broadcaster)
Lefty Grove
Harry Hooper
Rick Ferrell
Carlton Fisk, C
Jim Rice
Babe Ruth
Tris Speaker
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Tom Yawkey (longtime owner)
Cy Young

--------

For Red Sox fans a list of the best players to wear the uniform over the years in Boston not in the HOF (current players not included).

Wade Boggs, 3B

Rick Burleson, SS

Tony Conigliaro, RF

Dom DiMaggio, CF

Dwight Evans, RF

Dave "Boo" Ferriss, RHP

Larry Gardner, 3B

Billy Goodman, INF/OF

Cecil "Tex" Hughson, RHP

Bruce Hurst, LHP

Jackie Jensen, RF

Ellis Kinder, RHP

George "Duffy" Lewis, LF

Jim Lonborg, RHP

Fred Lynn, CF

Frank Malzone, 3B

Bill Monbouquette, RHP

Mel Parnell, LHP

Johnny Pesky, SS/3B

Rico Petrocelli, SS/3B

Dick Radatz, RHP

Jerry Remy, 2B

Pete Runnels, 1B/2B

George Scott, 1B

Reggie Smith, CF/RF

Bob Stanley, RHP

Vern Stephens, SS

Luis Tiant, RHP

Smokey Joe Wood RHP

I can't claim to have seen them all of course but from Ted Williams, Mel Parnel, Jackie Jensen and Frank Malzone on I have. I may have missed a few but those two lists above are the cream of the Red Sox players going all the way back to Cy Young.

Regardless of what the critics have to say, I could really care less because I know what I saw with my own eyes, Jim Rice belongs in the Hall of Fame.

wilheim

wilheim · Jan 14, 2009

Jim Rice 200th Fenway Home Run June 13, 1988

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TomGshotput · Jan 14, 2009

Not sure how you define humanitarian. No matter how you do, Belle and Gonzalez probably don't fit. Dale Murphy, Ron Santo and Andre Dawson most likely do. Not in the Dikembe Mutombo/Roberto Clemente sense, but certainly in the same sense Jim Rice was. I really did like hearing the story about Rice going into the stands, never saw that one before.

Jeter has only played for the Yankees. Bagwell, Biggio, Pujols, Ichiro, Chipper Jones all did. A major reason people even consider Bernie Williams a candidate is because he played his entire career on one team. Really, having a few million people watch your entire career is better that having more people watch a small fraction of your career. Perhaps a big reason Rice never left Boston is because he was washed up by his early 30s. Dwight Evans, John Smoltz, Frank Thomas, etc., change teams because they are still productive into their late 30s and 40s

Stop saying the number of hits and homeruns and start saying exactly how much those events help a team. Rice had more hits and homeruns than Colavito and may very well have had a better career. However Colavito played in a ballpark and era when fewer runs were scored. That means each run went further to helping his team. When you account for that, the far better walk numners, and the better defense, the difference between the two players shrinks immensly. In the case of someone like Ron Santo, where the defensive difference is so great and the games played favors the guy from the 60s, Rice falls behind

Rice certainly did help his team a great deal, no one has ever questioned that. The only question is "is it up the standards the writers have set for the Hall-of-Fame?" And since there are players better than him not in the Hall-of-Fame, he has to be

Rice definitely had to play his entire career in perhaps the worst team and city for racial integration, and he did so in the classiest way possible. Though compared to playing in the 70s after Tiant and Smith, I would still give more credit to Aparicio who started in the 50s and was a huge factor throughout the entire sport, not just one city

Even more credit goes to Minnie Minoso. Even after Jackie Robinson, there was still segregation in baseball, especially in the AL. Any team would pass over the dark skinned player if they already had a couple on the roster. Minnoso was good enough to play in the league in 1948, 49 and 50, yet he was not allowed to because of the color of his skin. Same thing may have happened with Tony Oliva, who turned 26 in his rookie year. Still, playing only 1600 games it is doubtful Oliva had a better career than Rice. With Minnie Minoso, there seems to be no question. Far fewer homeruns and hits, but again at a time and in a ballpark where there were far fewer hit, so each one did more to help the team; more walks, better defense, fewer outs; two time Negro League All-Star. Give Minoso credit for those years in the Negro Leagues and he surpasses Rice in virtually everything except for homeruns

(number of MVP votes isn't really fair, since there were fewere voters in the 50s than the 70s. However, adjust for that and it looks like Minoso and Rice each recieved about the same number of votes, though the votes for Rice tended to be higher up on the ballot)

Fishhead · Jan 14, 2009

Fishhead said:
If Rice is in, I think the following accomplishments of a player deserves Hall of Fame recognition also.............

Career highlights of Dwight Evans....

3-time All-Star (1978, 1981, 1987)

8 Gold Glove Awards (1976, 1978-79, 1981-85)

4-time Top 10 MVP (1981-82, 1987-88)

Led league in On-base percentage (1982)

Led league in OPS (1981 and 1984)

Led league in Runs and Extra-Base Hits (1984)

Led league in Total Bases and Home Runs (1981)

Led league in Walks (1981, 1985 and 1987)

Led league in Runs Created (1981 and 1984)

Led league in Times on Base (1981 and 1982)

2,606 Games (34th All-Time MLB)

8,996 At Bats (61st All-Time MLB)

1,470 Runs (65th All-Time MLB)

2,446 Hits (95th All-Time MLB)

4,230 Total Bases (53rd All-Time MLB)

483 Doubles (59th All-Time MLB)

385 Home Runs (49th All-Time MLB) ...without drugs.

1,384 RBI (65th All-Time MLB)

1,391 Walks (25th All-Time MLB)

1,570 Runs Created (54th All-Time MLB)

941 Extra-Base Hits (41st All-Time MLB)

3,890 Times on Base (43rd All-Time MLB)

77 Sacrifice Flies (87th All-Time MLB)

Hit for the cycle (1984)

4-time hit a home run on opening days in his career, including one on the very first pitch of the season. The one he hit on the very first pitch was also in the first MLB game of the season, thus giving him the record for earliest home run hit in a season, which for obvious reasons can never be broken.

Has the 10th most career Home Runs hit by an American League right-handed batter (385). This is pretty impressive and something I wasn't even aware of.

Found this article, and I swear to you I'm not Patrick Sullivan.

Mixed Up Sox

By Patrick Sullivan

Based on the numbers below, which player would you contend had the better career?

GAMES AVG OBP SLG OPS+ Player A: 2,089 .298 .352 .502 128 Player B: 2,606 .272 .370 .470 127</PRE>Here are some additional numbers, including plate appearances, total bases, bases on balls, outs made and times the player grounded into a double play:

PA TB BB OUTS GIDPPlayer A: 9,058 4,129 670 6,221 315Player B: 10,569 4,230 1,391 6,965 227</PRE>To give you a sense of peak value, here are their respective best five seasons in terms of OPS+:

Player A Player B 158 163 154 156 148 148 141 147 137 137</PRE>To my eye, they look pretty comparable, though I would take Player B's career. He played longer, had a slightly better peak, and derived more of his offensive value from his on-base percentage than he did from his slugging percentage. Quality and quantity. The best of both worlds.

Now what if I told you that Player B played right field and Player A left field? The same output from a right fielder as a left fielder will always be more valuable from the guy playing right because it is a more demanding defensive position. And then what if I told you Player B also won eight Gold Gloves while Player A was considered a mediocre defender at best?
And then what if I told you that the two were not only contemporaries, but teammates? Wouldn't it stand to reason that the media and general public could come to a fair assessment of who the better player was?

Well in case you haven't yet figured it out, Jim Rice is Player A and Dwight Evans is Player B. Rice received 63.5% of Hall of Fame votes yesterday, making him a likely bet to get in on next year's thin ballot. Dewey, on the other hand, never managed 8% of the votes and only managed to stay on the ballot for three years.
So why the perception gap? I have a few theories. For one, Rice had his best seasons early in his career and leveled off some thereafter while Evans started relatively slowly and became a superstar during the middle part of his career. It seems that each had their reputations solidified during their early years - Rice as the superstar and Evans as the good defender with an OK bat.
Also, Rice's best seasons, particularly 1977 and 1978, came for some very good Boston Red Sox teams while Evans did his best work for more mediocre editions of the Carmine Hose in the early 80's. Further, Rice excelled in the back-of-the-trading-card AVG/HR/RBI numbers whereas Evans stood out because he walked a lot, mixed in some pop and played great defense. Evans's statistical edges come in categories less valued by the mainstream. Take all of this together and the inexplicable, that fans and media alike recall Rice's work more favorably than Dewey's, becomes a little easier to account for.
Fan opinion is one thing. Fans are busy. Fans have jobs. Fans do not devote their professional lives to the coverage of baseball. But the media owes the game and the integrity of the Hall of Fame more - not the least of which is a good faith attempt at understanding the sport. Wouldn't it be more useful for you to know, say, that Evans twice led the American League in OPS while Rice did just once (something I had no idea of before researching for this piece) than to listen to story after story about how "Rice was the most feared hitter in the league for a decade?"
Dwight Evans was a better player than Jim Rice and yet the Baseball Writers' Association of America would have you believe that they were not even in the same galaxy as players, with the conventional wisdom being that Rice was better. Well you can take the more "feared" guy. I'll take the more durable player who was the superior offensive force, defender and baserunner.

Fishhead · Jan 14, 2009

Fishhead said:
Found this article, and I swear to you I'm not Patrick Sullivan.

Mixed Up Sox

By Patrick Sullivan

Based on the numbers below, which player would you contend had the better career?

GAMES AVG OBP SLG OPS+ Player A: 2,089 .298 .352 .502 128 Player B: 2,606 .272 .370 .470 127
</PRE>Here are some additional numbers, including plate appearances, total bases, bases on balls, outs made and times the player grounded into a double play:

PA TB BB OUTS GIDPPlayer A: 9,058 4,129 670 6,221 315Player B: 10,569 4,230 1,391 6,965 227
</PRE>To give you a sense of peak value, here are their respective best five seasons in terms of OPS+:

Player A Player B 158 163 154 156 148 148 141 147 137 137
</PRE>To my eye, they look pretty comparable, though I would take Player B's career. He played longer, had a slightly better peak, and derived more of his offensive value from his on-base percentage than he did from his slugging percentage. Quality and quantity. The best of both worlds.

Now what if I told you that Player B played right field and Player A left field? The same output from a right fielder as a left fielder will always be more valuable from the guy playing right because it is a more demanding defensive position. And then what if I told you Player B also won eight Gold Gloves while Player A was considered a mediocre defender at best?
And then what if I told you that the two were not only contemporaries, but teammates? Wouldn't it stand to reason that the media and general public could come to a fair assessment of who the better player was?

Well in case you haven't yet figured it out, Jim Rice is Player A and Dwight Evans is Player B. Rice received 63.5% of Hall of Fame votes yesterday, making him a likely bet to get in on next year's thin ballot. Dewey, on the other hand, never managed 8% of the votes and only managed to stay on the ballot for three years.
So why the perception gap? I have a few theories. For one, Rice had his best seasons early in his career and leveled off some thereafter while Evans started relatively slowly and became a superstar during the middle part of his career. It seems that each had their reputations solidified during their early years - Rice as the superstar and Evans as the good defender with an OK bat.
Also, Rice's best seasons, particularly 1977 and 1978, came for some very good Boston Red Sox teams while Evans did his best work for more mediocre editions of the Carmine Hose in the early 80's. Further, Rice excelled in the back-of-the-trading-card AVG/HR/RBI numbers whereas Evans stood out because he walked a lot, mixed in some pop and played great defense. Evans's statistical edges come in categories less valued by the mainstream. Take all of this together and the inexplicable, that fans and media alike recall Rice's work more favorably than Dewey's, becomes a little easier to account for.
Fan opinion is one thing. Fans are busy. Fans have jobs. Fans do not devote their professional lives to the coverage of baseball. But the media owes the game and the integrity of the Hall of Fame more - not the least of which is a good faith attempt at understanding the sport. Wouldn't it be more useful for you to know, say, that Evans twice led the American League in OPS while Rice did just once (something I had no idea of before researching for this piece) than to listen to story after story about how "Rice was the most feared hitter in the league for a decade?"
Dwight Evans was a better player than Jim Rice and yet the Baseball Writers' Association of America would have you believe that they were not even in the same galaxy as players, with the conventional wisdom being that Rice was better. Well you can take the more "feared" guy. I'll take the more durable player who was the superior offensive force, defender and baserunner.

. Rice received 63.5% of making him a likely bet to get in on next year's thin ballot(which he did).

Dewey, on the other hand, never managed 8% of the votes and only managed to stay on the ballot for three years!

UNBELIEVABLE!

TomGshotput · Jan 14, 2009

Fishhead said:
But the media owes the game and the integrity of the Hall of Fame more - not the least of which is a good faith attempt at understanding the sport

Sadly, too many members of the media now feel the game owes them something, not the other way around

Fishhead · Jan 14, 2009

TomGshotput said:
Sadly, too many members of the media now feel the game owes them something, not the other way around

TRUE STORY

I once knew a writer in Las Vegas that had a HOF vote and I made a point to tell him to make sure he voted for Dwight Evans. I don't recall his exact reply, but it was something like this......."I've thought about that, he put up good numbers with the Tigers certainly, he was a pretty decent at 1B also. I then said, "no, DWIGHT Evans of the Red Sox and he replied like he had never even heard of him?"

:think2::think2:

Sadly, more then just this writer confuses Darrell with Dwight...........and by the way, Darrell was highly underrated also.