I Love it when LeBron Loses

[PatsFan1283]

I was disappointed they let go of Caruso, but not as much about KCP and Schroeder. Schroeder was a horrible fit, and KCP too often put up blanks offensively (though it's not like Caruso was a gem offensively either).

Westbrook is still a much better player than Schroeder. I don't think Westbrook is an ideal fit, but I think he can be valuable if used right. I think he could be a tremendous sixth man. Westbrook tends to play better in the second half of the season historically, last season not being an exception. He can still bring value to a contender, if used right. He'll never be the best fit for them, but it's absolutely an upgrade over Schroeder.

I don't know if I agree with the 3-12 analysis. Westbrook is the best third player they've had in LeBron's stretch in LA. I think guys like Nunn and Monk could be pretty good fits. It would have been nice if they kept a Caruso and had someone like Buddy Hield to help with floor spacing I also think that 3-12 last year was just pretty bad.


I think the right price for them winning the West is more around +240 or +250. We have to consider the rest of the conference when judging that obviously; the rest of the West, while I would say is pretty deep with solid teams, is not nearly as strong at the top as it used to be. All the contenders have question marks:

-Suns could be susceptible to a hangover from the previous year, and just genuinely don't have that much upside. They're a good team, but their trip to the Finals was largely due to lucky circumstance. All 3 rounds in the West involved injuries to key players for the opposition. I mean, they got pushed to 6 by the Kawhi-less Clippers for fuck's sake.

-Jazz have proven year after year they don't belong in the championship hunt. Gobert doesn't bring enough offesnively, and relying on Clarkson to be your second offensive option isn't conducive to playoff success (unless your 2018 LeBron James)

-Clippers w/o Kawhi for much of the year
-Nuggets w/o Murray, too reliant on Jokic
-Uncertainty with how Klay will be for the Warriors

I don't think Schroder was a horrible fit, the team was humming along until Bron/AD died and the season was never the same. He was the best guy they could get that could be a secondary ballhandler/pick and roll partner for AD while Bron was on the bench. He was even playing well vs the Suns until AD died. Obviously w/o AD he's pretty screwed vs the better defenses, but he's a good scorer/decent shooter/defender (much better shooter than Russ)....He was going to be a better version of the 2020 Rondo for them playing with AD.

Also, there is no sunk cost fallacy with him. If he isn't playing well, you can sit him and go with shooters around LeBron/AD (similar to Rondo from the 2020 year but better) If Russ isn't playing well and sticking out like a sore thumb because he can't space the floor for LeBron in important games, that is gonna have a tougher time to resolve itself given his salary/pedigree and all that. And obviously he can never be traded now, so you're pot committed with him with 0 flexibility if something nice comes along over the next 3 months.

Caruso/KCP are both way better on ball defenders than any of these guys they got now (Danny Green as well but I thought dealing him for Schroder was a good move)....Kuz could've been packaged separately as well if he had to go. They probably need THT to emerge. Nunn might be solid but he's not gonna play over Russ and if he does it just speaks to how bad the Russ deal was.

Westbrook might be 3rd best in a vacuum but that isn't how this works, he's gonna have to share the floor with Bron/AD a lot and I have a hard time seeing him looking like anything but a fish out of water playing off ball. Maybe if he was like 6-7 years younger but I'd be surprised if that resolves itself well.

All those other teams got a question mark or two, but you're still talking about likely having to win 3 straight series on the road if 1 of Bron or AD don't get 75+ games in.

Like I said though, they won't play a game that matters for 6 months. I'd have to see their final roster to have a more definitive opinion since the big market teams can tool up during the seaosn now but for a team that has 2 of the best players in the league I think they've handled everything else pretty badly the last few months.

 

[JATTKING]

Yet the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan and with Pippen as the sole star on the team. Almost made the Conference Finals too.

No team LeBron has been on would've done that without him.

Nobody is arguing Pippen wasn't great. But point is Jordan made him. Anybody that has played bball knows that you get better by playing against somebody that is better than you. That's how I got better. Pippen played against the GOAT. A GOAT who was viciously competitive and hounded you to get better instead of passive aggressive whining like Lebron.

Lebron had established mega stars like Love or Wade (Wade had already won a championship. He was a bonafide superstar and champion) Kyrie is a beast.

I mean it's totally different situation. Lebron jumping team to team creating super teams to get his. Nobody is going to argue that Lebron is one of the best ever. Don't get me wrong. But I have way more respect for Jordan for many many reasons.

 

[JATTKING]

Have always respected Westbrook for that reason.


LeBron has never "needed" mega stars though. Love and Bosh were not mega stars, and their roles were diminished. Even Wade was past his peak by a bit after their first year or so together

He also dragged a bag of dicks to the NBA Finals in 2018. That team would've struggled to win 20 games without LeBron that year.

I also agree about Bosh. He wasn't really a superstar.

 

[Avocado33]

I don't think Schroder was a horrible fit, the team was humming along until Bron/AD died and the season was never the same. He was the best guy they could get that could be a secondary ballhandler/pick and roll partner for AD while Bron was on the bench. He was even playing well vs the Suns until AD died. Obviously w/o AD he's pretty screwed vs the better defenses, but he's a good scorer/decent shooter/defender (much better shooter than Russ)....He was going to be a better version of the 2020 Rondo for them playing with AD.

Also, there is no sunk cost fallacy with him. If he isn't playing well, you can sit him and go with shooters around LeBron/AD (similar to Rondo from the 2020 year but better) If Russ isn't playing well and sticking out like a sore thumb because he can't space the floor for LeBron in important games, that is gonna have a tougher time to resolve itself given his salary/pedigree and all that. And obviously he can never be traded now, so you're pot committed with him with 0 flexibility if something nice comes along over the next 3 months.

Caruso/KCP are both way better on ball defenders than any of these guys they got now (Danny Green as well but I thought dealing him for Schroder was a good move)....Kuz could've been packaged separately as well if he had to go. They probably need THT to emerge. Nunn might be solid but he's not gonna play over Russ and if he does it just speaks to how bad the Russ deal was.

Westbrook might be 3rd best in a vacuum but that isn't how this works, he's gonna have to share the floor with Bron/AD a lot and I have a hard time seeing him looking like anything but a fish out of water playing off ball. Maybe if he was like 6-7 years younger but I'd be surprised if that resolves itself well.

All those other teams got a question mark or two, but you're still talking about likely having to win 3 straight series on the road if 1 of Bron or AD don't get 75+ games in.

Like I said though, they won't play a game that matters for 6 months. I'd have to see their final roster to have a more definitive opinion since the big market teams can tool up during the seaosn now but for a team that has 2 of the best players in the league I think they've handled everything else pretty badly the last few months.

I think any team with a healthy LeBron/AD should hum along pretty well. Schroeder's lack of upside doesn't offset the fact that he is too ball dominant to really fit in with LeBron. Now Westbrook clearly doesn't address the ball dominance issue very much, but Westbrook is still a much more talented player than Schroeder overall. Neither are ideal fits position wise. That's why I'd like someone like Westbrook to be the 6th man. Let LeBron run the point without Westbrook in there. Let LeBron get more time on the bench, and let Westbrook "run free" for longer stretches. Lakers have a lot more potential to play well with LeBron off the floor if they go that route. Westbrook/AD with a few shooters could actually create a pretty sick pick-and-roll game.

Like initially said though, priority #1 is keeping LeBron/AD healthy. They'll be a serious threat if they show up in April with that being the case, regardless of who fills out the roster. Big if though regarding health, especially in AD's case

 

[JATTKING]

I think any team with a healthy LeBron/AD should hum along pretty well. Schroeder's lack of upside doesn't offset the fact that he is too ball dominant to really fit in with LeBron. Now Westbrook clearly doesn't address the ball dominance issue very much, but Westbrook is still a much more talented player than Schroeder overall. Neither are ideal fits position wise. That's why I'd like someone like Westbrook to be the 6th man. Let LeBron run the point without Westbrook in there. Let LeBron get more time on the bench, and let Westbrook "run free" for longer stretches. Lakers have a lot more potential to play well with LeBron off the floor if they go that route. Westbrook/AD with a few shooters could actually create a pretty sick pick-and-roll game.

Like initially said though, priority #1 is keeping LeBron/AD healthy. They'll be a serious threat if they show up in April with that being the case, regardless of who fills out the roster. Big if though regarding health, especially in AD's case

Westbrook and Schroeder aren't even in the same conversation as far as I'm concerned. I'd take Russell any day. Even with his aggravating shooting slumps.

You know what you changed my mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Lakers are there in the end. Lebron and AD definitely need to stay healthy. Agree again. They can probably afford to take it easy if Westbrook is rolling.

Now I'm cheering for a Nets vs Lakers final haha. That would be wicked. Wish Kyrie was playing. That would be an insane match of big 3 against big 3. Love Kyrie as a player. He's electric but he's so whacko. It's a shame. Fans getting robbed cause he's a headcase.

Yup. Definitely changed my mind. Lakers can do this. They have to find a way to beat Phoenix though to get out of the West.

 

[PatsFan1283]

He makes like 45 million a year and he's Russell Westbrook, he ain't gonna be 6th man or have his role reduced unless he's playing really, really badly. At which point, that is a ruinous development to say the least. Even if he is better than Schroder, the point is he needs to be by a pretty massive amount to justify getting rid of Schroder, KCP, Kuzma, Caruso, picks and locking him in.

Schroder might not have that much upside, but he was kinda easy escapegoat (shoutout to Emmitt Smith) once the season went sour. He was playing pretty well for them and had value as a secondary ballhandler. Again, look at his #'s in the Suns series, he was off to a nice start.

Even what you are saying is basically a regular season solution, if he has to have his minutes reduced in the playoffs or his role greatly curtailed then they probably gave up too much for him.

Team just looks lame beyond the big 2 which is weird considering we're in year 46 of the LeBron thing at this point and they hit it out of the park getting AD to be the #2. All you need after that is shooters/defenders and 1 more guy who can create a little.

I hate to say flimsy stuff like this usually, but it is almost as if they (re: LeBron as well since he's de facto GM almost) panicked because a team like the Nets had more of a traditional "big 3" and they didn't. Should've realized 1 of those fools would go off the reservation (no pun intended)

 

[PatsFan1283]

Westbrook and Schroeder aren't even in the same conversation as far as I'm concerned. I'd take Russell any day. Even with his aggravating shooting slumps.

You know what you changed my mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Lakers are there in the end. Lebron and AD definitely need to stay healthy. Agree again. They can probably afford to take it easy if Westbrook is rolling.

Now I'm cheering for a Nets vs Lakers final haha. That would be wicked. Wish Kyrie was playing. That would be an insane match of big 3 against big 3. Love Kyrie as a player. He's electric but he's so whacko. It's a shame. Fans getting robbed cause he's a headcase.

Yup. Definitely changed my mind. Lakers can do this. They have to find a way to beat Phoenix though to get out of the West.

You can plug XYZ guys in for Schroder, my point is I think against the best defensive teams in the league in May/June that I think Westbrook could just be a legitimate net negative for the Lakers that it is debatable if he should even be on the court.

He's been abysmal in the playoffs the last 4 years and isn't getting any younger. And atleast those were in mostly ideal roles. Part of the reason he's so much better in the regular season is because he's the only 1 that tries 100%, playoffs everyone pretty much everyone matches intensity.

Spacing/shooting is the easiest part of the game to conceptualize so it is possible he can add more in other ways to offset it but at his age, I tend to doubt it. We'll see I guess, long ass season. These teams don't play games that matter for 6 more months. Who knows, might be another global pandemic by then.

 

[Avocado33]

He makes like 45 million a year and he's Russell Westbrook, he ain't gonna be 6th man or have his role reduced unless he's playing really, really badly. At which point, that is a ruinous development to say the least. Even if he is better than Schroder, the point is he needs to be by a pretty massive amount to justify getting rid of Schroder, KCP, Kuzma, Caruso, picks and locking him in.

Schroder might not have that much upside, but he was kinda easy escapegoat (shoutout to Emmitt Smith) once the season went sour. He was playing pretty well for them and had value as a secondary ballhandler. Again, look at his #'s in the Suns series, he was off to a nice start.

Even what you are saying is basically a regular season solution, if he has to have his minutes reduced in the playoffs or his role greatly curtailed then they probably gave up too much for him.

Team just looks lame beyond the big 2 which is weird considering we're in year 46 of the LeBron thing at this point and they hit it out of the park getting AD to be the #2. All you need after that is shooters/defenders and 1 more guy who can create a little.

I hate to say flimsy stuff like this usually, but it is almost as if they (re: LeBron as well since he's de facto GM almost) panicked because a team like the Nets had more of a traditional "big 3" and they didn't. Should've realized 1 of those fools would go off the reservation (no pun intended)

I think it's TBD to see if Westbrook is open to accepting a lesser role. I do partially agree that the consideration itself signals perhaps giving too much in a trade. But I'm not 100% sure Westbrook wouldn't be willing to do that, not yet anyway

Maybe the Nets loading up did force them to pull the trigger prematurely, but all those guys -- KCP, Caruso, Kuz -- provided them with a lot to be desired offensively.

Benefit of having Westbrook you could argue is it's not a bad insurance policy if either AD or LeBron miss significant time. They need offensive punch when one (or both) of them is not on the court

 

[azbob]

PatFan...I agree with your thought that the LAL did panic big time in adding Westbrook. There were so many other better choices to fill that role from a proven guy like Lowry to Reggie Jackson who brings toughness and doesn't fade in a pressure spot. You can fill in the blank for other guys rather than either Westbrook or Rondo. Lakers will do a lot more retooling of the line-up before playoff time, but their success hinges on the health of the big two when it counts.

 

[JATTKING]

PatFan...I agree with your thought that the LAL did panic big time in adding Westbrook. There were so many other better choices to fill that role from a proven guy like Lowry to Reggie Jackson who brings toughness and doesn't fade in a pressure spot. You can fill in the blank for other guys rather than either Westbrook or Rondo. Lakers will do a lot more retooling of the line-up before playoff time, but their success hinges on the health of the big two when it counts.

Lowry going to provide the Heat with some much needed offensive spark. That Miami team goes on weird offensive droughts. For example tonight. Kept stopping Pacers over and over but couldn't score on the other end.

 

[StevieRay]

 

[festeringZit]

NBA greats explain why Jordan > LeBitch.

 

[Avocado33]

Amazing longevity from The King!

 

[festeringZit]

Amazing longevity from The King!


View attachment 19430

He certainly is the king, the king of flopping and turnovers that is. Most turnovers of all time, and
most turnovers per game for anyone at the top of that list.

 

[festeringZit]

He's also the king of NBA finals losses. Wheee!!!! Biggest NBA finals loser of all time!!!!!!!


Since 1962-63, LeBron James has lost the most games in the NBA Finals, with 33 losses.

NAME	SERIES	L
LeBron James	NBA Finals	33
Jerry West	NBA Finals	29
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	NBA Finals	27
Magic Johnson	NBA Finals	26

 

[carlitosway]

???

 

[festeringZit]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=4646919335369937

 

[Againclay56]

I also agree about Bosh. He wasn't really a superstar.

I don't think Bosh was overrated. He played his role in Miami flawlessly and stepped up big time when needed.

 

[Againclay56]

I'd bet a lot of the size and muscularity of Lebron, an advantage many posters keep pointing out as a reason he'd beat MJ in 1 on 1, is the result of copious amounts of HGH.

 

[Againclay56]

LOL. On a serious note, LeBron wouldn't have free range to go to the basket with jabber, Ewing or Malone standing there. They would of our him on his ass.