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I agree, it is fucked up.

Declare gambling winnings and pay taxes...they may target you for further audit.

Don't declare gambling winnings and don't pay taxes...probably get away with it but if they catch you, you could do jail time.

Fucked up country we live in.

Same applies to admitting you have cash offshore. I think the smart gamble is to not admit you have cash offshore.

Later,
Books Worst Enemy
 

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Interesting case I stumbled across recently. DOJ actually asked to have a tax evasion case dismissed because the guy's lawyers were going to point out in their defense that the the 1040 form does not and never has had a valid OMB control number (a requirement of the paperwork reduction act), thus making it an invalid form. Case was dismissed with prejudice, meaning he cannot be retried for the same offense. The thinking was that they did not want the precedent set.

************** (from givemeliberty.org)***

1040 Checkmate?

DOJ Dismisses Felony Tax Prosecution
-- With Prejudice -- After PRA Defense Raised

On May 12, 2006 in Peoria, Illinois, the attorney for the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) begged the court to dismiss all charges against IRS victim Robert Lawrence in federal District Court.

The motion for dismissal came on the heels of a surprise tactic by Lawrence?s defense attorney Oscar Stilley.

The tactic threatened exposure of IRS?s on-going efforts to defraud the public. The move put DOJ attorneys in a state of panic that left them with only one alternative: beg for dismissal, with prejudice.

Stilley?s tactic paid off. Sixty days earlier, the DOJ had indicted Lawrence on three counts of willful failure to file a 1040 form, and three felony counts of income tax evasion. The federal Judge dismissed all charges with prejudice, meaning the DOJ cannot charge Lawrence with those crimes again.

The trial was to have started on Monday morning, May 15th.

On Wednesday, May 10, Stilley mailed a set of documents to the DOJ in response to DOJ?s discovery demands. The documents revealed to DOJ for the first time that Lawrence was basing his entire defense on an act of Congress, 44 U.S.C. 3500 ? 3520, also known as the "Paperwork Reduction Act" (PRA).

In Section 3512 of the Act, titled "Public Protection," it says that no person shall be subject to any penalty for failing to comply with an agency?s collection of information request (such as a 1040 form), if the request does not display a valid control number assigned by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) in accordance with the requirements of the Act, or if the agency fails to inform the person who is to respond to the collection of information that he is not required to respond to the collection of information request unless it displays a valid control number.

In Section 3512 Congress went on to authorize that the protection provided by Section 3512 may be raised in the form of a complete defense at any time during an agency?s administrative process (such as an IRS Tax Court or Collection and Due Process Hearing) or during a judicial proceeding (such as Lawrence?s criminal trial).

In sum, the PRA requires that all government agencies display valid OMB control numbers and certain disclosures directly on all information collection forms that the public is requested to file. Lawrence's sole defense was he was not required to file an IRS Form 1040 because it displays an invalid OMB control number.

Government officials knew that if the case went to trial, it would expose the fraudulent, counterfeit 1040. They also must have known that a trial would expose the ongoing conspiracy between OMB and IRS to publish 1040 forms each year that those agencies knew were in violation of the PRA. That would raise the issue that the Form 1040, with its invalid control number, is being used by the Government to cover up the underlying constitutional tort -- that is, the enforcement of a direct, unapportioned tax on the labor of every working man, women and child in America.

Any information collection form, such as IRS Form 1040, which lacks bona fide statutory authority or which conflicts with the Constitution, cannot be issued an OMB control number. If a control number were issued for such a form, the form would be invalid and of no force and effect.

Under the facts and circumstances of the last 24 years, it is safe to say that IRS Form 1040 is a fraudulent, counterfeit, bootleg form. Government officials responsible for this fraud should be investigated and face indictment for willfully making and sponsoring false instruments.

Caught between a rock and a hard place, the DOJ and IRS decided not to let the Lawrence case proceed because it would reveal one critical and damning fact:

The PRA law protects those that fail to file IRS bootleg Form 1040

The DOJ knew that it stood a significant chance of losing the case, and if that happened, the press and others would quickly spread the word, and leave only fools to ever file a 1040 again. Oscar Stilley?s pleadings and documents made these points quite clear:

* IRS Form 1040 violates the federal Paperwork Reduction Act (PRA) and is therefore a legally invalid form.

* Under the Public Protection clause of the PRA, no person can be penalized for failing to file a 1040 if the IRS fails to fully comply with the PRA.

* The PRA statutes explicitly provide that a PRA challenge is a complete defense and can be raised in any administrative or judicial proceeding.

* The IRS Individual Form 1040 has not and cannot comply with the requirements of the PRA because no existing statute authorizes the IRS to impose or collect the federal income tax from individuals. That lack of bona fide authority makes it impossible for IRS to avoid violating the PRA.
 

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heatohio said:
Why in the world would you do that??? The government screws you every which way and you go out of your way to give them more money? I don't understand.

Probably because Sean would rather not spend a few years in the "grey bar motel" for tax evasion? Pretty simple concept IMO...
 

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Most people who gamble are really small time gamblers and do not make enough money for the IRS to even bother auditing them.

You probably have to make 30-50k a year for them to even maybe put a red flag up.
 

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Mr. Smith said:
dont think just because you are innocent the IRS wont make you miserable or will not believe you are guilty of not paying all taxes.

IRS agents have to justify their time spent. They have bosses they report to like anyone else. They have to produce, like any other job holder. If their are too many cases assigned to them where they go back to their boss and say "Yeah I spent 240 hours investigating this guy, but turns out he did pay all of his taxes", that is 240 salaried hours they spent to generate zero income. that is bad for them and their career at the IRS.

your chances of audit do skyrocket. you "should" be OK if you pay all taxes. just dont believe you WILL be OK with the IRS, because you may not.

you send documentation of all wagers/deposits/etc, they think their are probably more and winnings you are omitting.

you somehow prove thats not true ( I dont think anyone can) and they will come after you for something else.

you got any Vegas winnings you didnt declare ( not saying you do, but they will start hunting elsewhere and elsewhere on your return)

bottom line-they dont like to spend a lot of time on an audit to come up empty handed.

know the risks if you are going to do this


Excellent post Smith. These guys are worse than cops, they don't trust anyone, they automatically assume you are lying to them and trying to get out of paying. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, believe me they know the code better than you do. Not like they say boy he sure seems like a nice guy, I bet he does pay his taxes so let's take his word for it and move on. Once they get their teeth into you than you got problems, honest Abe or not.

I do agree with Sean you should be paying your taxes but I would not do anything to encourage an audit in any way, shape, or form. I paid my taxes too but just went through one less than two years ago, you wouldn't wish one on your worst enemy. I won't post details here but if anyone has questions they can drop me a line.
 

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Patrick McIrish said:
Excellent post Smith. These guys are worse than cops, they don't trust anyone, they automatically assume you are lying to them and trying to get out of paying. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, believe me they know the code better than you do. Not like they say boy he sure seems like a nice guy, I bet he does pay his taxes so let's take his word for it and move on. Once they get their teeth into you than you got problems, honest Abe or not.

I do agree with Sean you should be paying your taxes but I would not do anything to encourage an audit in any way, shape, or form. I paid my taxes too but just went through one less than two years ago, you wouldn't wish one on your worst enemy. I won't post details here but if anyone has questions they can drop me a line.

Some general questions..

How does the IRS even know about offshore accounts w/ books or any money that is coming in that way?

How much would it take for one gambler to make for them to come Audit... I know they won't for small timers, just want to know the figure.

What brings up an IRS audit?
 

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All sorts of things trigger IRS audits - they run your info through all sorts of databases.

For instance living in a neighborhood with an average income of 500,000 when you report $50,000 will prob make them look. When they look, if you made $1M the year before or have parents claiming $1M+ they'll probably assume you are ok. If you made $50K the year before, they'll probably come ask you how you are paying the bills.

If you register a $100,000 car and pay taxes on 25K, they'll wonder...

There are a million flags their computers look for.

If you make $1000 gambling, they will not flag you!

Sean
 

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sean1 said:
All sorts of things trigger IRS audits - they run your info through all sorts of databases.

For instance living in a neighborhood with an average income of 500,000 when you report $50,000 will prob make them look. When they look, if you made $1M the year before or have parents claiming $1M+ they'll probably assume you are ok. If you made $50K the year before, they'll probably come ask you how you are paying the bills.

If you register a $100,000 car and pay taxes on 25K, they'll wonder...

There are a million flags their computers look for.

If you make $1000 gambling, they will not flag you!

Sean

Right, I assume they base everything on income.. If you are bringing in a ton of money that they do not know - flags come about.

I was sure they did not come after the small time gambler... just wanted to know how much one needed to make - I thought 30+k would raise a flag, maybe less?

I myself only bring in about 5k/yr doing it - thats on a good year, and never had any problems.

Just wanted to gather more info as we were discussing it.

Thanks..
 

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trytrytry said:
That is not true you can define a net win for a "session" as long as the "session" is reasonable (like yearly net) its fine.

That would be saying on a slot machine you need notes on every pull, or pull tabs, its net from a session not net on every wager.

(

We all know that "session" is not defined. What does that mean? Yes, we wished to think that we can give a "session" a reasonable meaning or even exploit the fact that it has not been defined if this comes to a legal argument with IRS. The first thing that comes to mind is JC story who expected the legal system to be reasonable when it comes to money and gambling. You cannot expect IRS to be reasonable, can you? I expect them to treat every bet as a session when it comes to sportsbetting. It is not slots and you know that and they are the ones who are going to exploit it.
 

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Flags are raised by your other income level.

If you make $5 Million as an investment banker and you don't report $500,000 in gambling winnings, it is unlikely that the IRS will notice as they really don't go through hundreds of casino transactions.

If you make $20K and don't report $20K in gambling income, it is likely they may notice... 1 $10000 income gambling form looks awful suspicious if you report a $20K income.

Sean
 

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Data said:
We all know that "session" is not defined. What does that mean? Yes, we wished to think that we can give a "session" a reasonable meaning or even exploit the fact that it has not been defined if this comes to a legal argument with IRS. The first thing that comes to mind is JC story who expected the legal system to be reasonable when it comes to money and gambling. You cannot expect IRS to be reasonable, can you? I expect them to treat every bet as a session when it comes to sportsbetting. It is not slots and you know that and they are the ones who are going to exploit it.

Dude - you are about 0-10 in this thread.

Legal precedent and tax courts disagree with you.
 

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vanzack said:
Dude - you are about 0-10 in this thread.

I have to respectfully disagree, sir. My points are valid and they are:
1) you cannot offset your winnings with your losses and have to report all your winnings as gross income, unless you file as a professional gambler
2) because of (1), a winning non-professional sports bettor who pays taxes as required by IRS will end up with a net loss after taxes

My simple math example is correct for people who file non itemized. The math for itemized returns is more complicated but in the end confirms my points 1 and 2. I agree with you that one can file itemized. However, as it was mentioned earlier by fathead "extra gross income before your deductions may put you into a higher tax bracket". Furthermore, if filed itemized, besides obviously losing standard deductions, some people will lose many thousands dollars more due to other reasons with inability to deduct medical expenses being the most obvious.

What is your point, sir?
 

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Data said:
I have to respectfully disagree, sir. My points are valid and they are:
1) you cannot offset your winnings with your losses and have to report all your winnings as gross income, unless you file as a professional gambler
2) because of (1), a winning non-professional sports bettor who pays taxes as required by IRS will end up with a net loss after taxes

My simple math example is correct for people who file non itemized. The math for itemized returns is more complicated but in the end confirms my points 1 and 2. I agree with you that one can file itemized. However, as it was mentioned earlier by fathead "extra gross income before your deductions may put you into a higher tax bracket". Furthermore, if filed itemized, besides obviously losing standard deductions, some people will lose many thousands dollars more due to other reasons with inability to deduct medical expenses being the most obvious.

What is your point, sir?


Wrong again.

Look - let me try to explain this again.

You have to list your winnings on line 21 - not net winnings but the sum of your winning sessions. THEN YOU TAKE OFF YOUR LOSSES AS A DEDUCTION.

Your point "if you dont use itemized deductions" is absurd. Do you really mean to tell me that anyone who claims gambling winnings isnt going claim their losses? Are you kidding? Your math example assumes someone is going to file their winnings and not deduct their losses. Its absurd. Everyone has the right to deduct their losses. It would be like a business reporting gross revenue and not deducting their expenses. Who the fuck would do that?

A high AGI has some consequences like AMT, reduction in other itemized deductions, and standard deduction losses. But your original math example is just absurd.

There is nobody on earth that would file as a casual gambler that would put all of their winning sessions and not deduct their losses. Just silly.
 

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People on this forum are the most paranoid people I have ever encountered.
 

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What do you mean how do you sign up?

You can give Pinnacle any address you want..
 

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sean1 said:
What do you mean how do you sign up?

You can give Pinnacle any address you want..

What if they (or any site) ever required validation, photo ID, phone call upon withdrawl and you misrepresented yourself?
 

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Those who want to play will find a way. Those who dont wont.

Sean
 

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WildBill said:
I can tell you this Sean and anyone else considering this, using a big worldwide bank like HSBC assures the IRS will find out about this and unless you are a millionaire with business interests around the world your chances of an audit having an account like this skyrocket.

I spoke this morning with HSBC Canada regarding the ability of Americans to open an account here and was informed that they report to the IRS as you say. Better to find a bank with no American affiliation.
 

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