Get Ready for PATRIOT II

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Kman-I think you and I HAVE been "affected" by the Patriot Act. As you stated earlier in this thread, it should make this a safer place. A lot of those that would do us harm have been locked up. No, I haven't been called in for questioning but the fact that some would-be terrorists have been caught "affects" me. It's the scope of these "Acts" and the potential for abuse that should concern all of us. I am the first one to admit the need for some temporary suspension of our basic civil rights after 9-11. We all want to do what we can to rid ourselves of the threat that exists. I just don't think we should give up our freedoms in a limitless fashion. And definately not for an indefinate amount of time. I think this legislation (and others like it) that would suspend some of our freedoms, should be reviewed every year (at least) to address the (1)further need for it. And (2)potential and/or blatant abuses. As Judge stated, the RICO was innacted for a specific purpose. It has since been used by just about every president and his government for whatever causes that they see fit. And that abuse has been non-partisan, allthough I get your drift on the Hillary thing.
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While I supported the war and still support this president, I don't think our liberties should be up for negotiation. I would need to see some pretty convincing reasoning for expanding on the Patriot Act. Our freedoms, and wanting to see others enjoy those same freedoms, is the one thing that I can hold on to when others argue against the U.S. and it's policies.
 

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Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Nobody should be trusted with this right or left. Just as an example, Clinton is too corrupt and Bush is too tyranical.
 

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It isn't gonna be "Bush" or "Hillary" kicking your door in... it's gonna be the COPS. I suppose none of you care because none of you have ever done anything illegal, like gamble on sports. But let me lay one proven fact on you... once you give the cops the power to start kicking doors in whenever they want, and violating peoples' civil rights, that this power will NEVER be relinquished by them.
 

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Razz - I hear what you are saying but I don't fear the governemt at all. Why should I? I am a lwa biding citizen

Kaya Man, Banned4Life - Sounds like we have some serious crooks on these boards and if you guys are so afraid of cops banging down your door any minute, maybe there is good reason. Personally, there is no reason the cops will be banging down my door so I am not worried. I am definitely glad I don't live in fear like that.

Bottom Line is if you obey the laws why should you be worried?

Since when is betting on sports illegal? And why hasn't Las Vegas been busted yet?

KMAN
 

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I don't live in fear of the pigs beating down my door. I do fear government policies to restrict or take away personal freedom. The supposed great example of freedom becomes less free for it's own citizens all the time.

"Bottom Line is if you obey the laws why should you be worried?"

This is the exact ignorance the government counts on to be able to take away personal freedoms.
 

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Kaya Man - Please tell me how I have been effected because I don't know.

Thanks for your help,
KMAN
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since when is betting on sports illegal? And why hasn't Las Vegas been busted yet? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well DUH because it's legal in Nevada.
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And ignoring whether actually betting on sports is legal for most Americans there is the matter that many sports bettors try to hide their gambling activities from the gov't (especially the IRS) by breaking down transfers so none are $10,000 or more, or opening up foreign bank accounts.

And let me offer this to you all to chew on... I believe that the Constitution was designed by the Founding Fathers to actually protect some "illegal" activities that don't harm or violate the rights of others. For example, if the cops had the ability to knock down whatever doors they want without a warrant they could catch a lot of pot smokers, but the constitutional prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure protects the rights of these pot smokers to engage in their activity (albeit illegal) without fear of harassment as long as their activity doesn't bother anyone else. I believe this is true because many of the Founding Fathers were engaged in illegal or questionable activities themselves (like smuggling) and didn't want a central government to be able to enforce laws targeted at activity that is a God-given right.
 

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Banned for Life - Was this your quote?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I suppose none of you care because none of you have ever done anything illegal, like gamble on sports. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If so, I guess you meant that it is illegal everywhere EXCEPT Las Vegas and on the Internet. Is this correct? Being that I do it on the internet I am not to worried about the government.

Also, you are saying that some illegal acts should be permitted because you assume our founding fathers were doing illegal acts? :confused In other words if someone else is doing something illegal then it should be OK for everyone to do it? :
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KMAN
 

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The legality of wagering on a sporting event on-line is a very gray area. But there are other considerations, being that I'm always seeing posts asking how to avoid reporting transfers to and from sports books, or using foreign banks to avoid reporting and/or paying taxes on winnings. The actual wagering may not be illegal but some of the activities used by some gamblers in order to facilitate such wagering (or avoid reporting winnings) could be.

What I said about the Constitution being written to protect some illegal activities can be explained like this... our Founding Fathers realized that the people have certain rights that are God-given, but that could be made illegal by a central government passing unjust laws. They knew that unjust laws could be passed by a "dictatorial majority" which restrict peoples' freedom as this is why the Revolution was fought against England. An example I used before was marijuana smoking. It is a God-given right of a person to smoke or injest whatever substance they choose to, while the US government has seen fit to make such behavior illegal. The Constitution as written is meant to protect this kind of activity if done in the privacy of ones own home and harms no one else.

The same argument could be used as applies to sports gambling. It is a God-given right of a person to gamble or accept wagers on a sporting event, or any event. The government has chosen to make such activity illegal.
 

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"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered." -Dorothy Thompson

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." -Tacitus

"He who forfeits his liberties for the promise of security, deserves neither." -Ben Franklin

"Mankind is more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." -T. Jefferson The Declaration of Independence, 4 July 1776
 

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Please, someone tell me how I've been effected or will be effected by these Patriot Acts! I want to make sure the government doesn't ruin my life!

Thanks,
KMAN
 
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Under the Patriot Act anyone who endorses a group/cause (etc\.) that could be deemed terrorist (and here the wording is very 'loose') is subject to arrest.

Sending monies "offshore" for reasons unknown to the US government could fall into this category.
How does this NOT affect us?
 

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I'm sure most German's weren't affected by Hitler's police state either.

Sure sucked if you were Jewish though.

When the rights of ONE are violated the rights of ALL are violated.
 

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I am still waiting........ How have I been effected?


KMAN
 

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Well it hasn't affected you at all since the law HASN'T BEEN PASSED YET!!!
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By the time you find out it will be too late.
 

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Kman,
Okay, so you're not a law breaker. How would you like to have to PROVE your innocence?
 

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It's simple......Don't put yourself in a position that you have to worry about the government.

We always rip on athletes because they get caught partying with a 16 year old at 3:00am or because they are at the scene of a murder but we won't take the same action that we ask of these athletes. Just don't put yourself in that situation.

Seems like a double standard to me.

KMAN
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Don't put yourself in a position that you have to worry about the government. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That strategy worked in nazi Germany too. Maybe they weren't such bad guys after all.
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The Cure for the Patriot Act: Police Who Honour Their Oath
by Michael Gaddy
The Sierra Times


For the unconstitutional Patriot Act and its offspring to be perpetrated against the citizens of America, all assisting branches of law enforcement; local, state and federal, must operate outside the restraints of the constitution they swore to "uphold and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic." In real terms, it will not just be a simple violation of that oath but an active participation with the domestic enemies of our freedoms and rights.

There are those of you who will say; but they are just following the law. To support this position one must be of the opinion that there can be contradictory laws. As a people, we have allowed this concept to permeate our thinking and thereby allow the numerous usurpations of the supreme law of the land by those in government.

Looking at www.usconstitution.com we find the very first sentence states, "The U.S. Constitution is the central instrument of government and the 'supreme law of the land."

In the second paragraph the definition statement continues; "The Constitution outlines the structure and powers of the 3 branches of government (executive, legislative, judicial) and the 3 levels of government (federal, state, local)."

The Miriam Webster dictionary defines supreme as, "the highest in rank or authority: highest in degree or quality." Therefore, simple logic would tell us that when any law, adopted by any entity, contradicts the Constitution, the Constitution reigns supreme and is higher in rank or authority.

Any government that attempts to govern with contradictory laws will create a society of chaos. There cannot be a law that says you cannot rob a convenience store and another that says you can. There cannot be a law that prohibits murder and one that allows it. There cannot be a law that outlaws drunk driving and one that says it is legal. Any law that is adopted by government that lies in contradiction to the Constitution would by definition be null and void.

When any member of law enforcement chooses to enforce a law of government, regardless of jurisdiction, that contradicts the Constitution, they are acting outside of their legal purview, are in violation of their oath and are in fact acting in a criminal fashion if the enforcement of that unconstitutional law is denying or infringing on the rights of those they profess to "protect and serve." When those who have taken an oath to uphold the laws of the Constitution act outside the constraints of that oath at government's behest: who is to protect us from those criminal acts? Does it now make sense why many of these jurisdictions are supporting the disarming of their constituents?

Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot found it much easier to control a disarmed citizenry who finally realized their rights and liberty were a thing of the past.

All efforts possible should be taken to address these issues with law enforcement entities in a peaceful forum before some confrontation breaks out. Citizens must advise those we pay, who have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, that any acts committed that are in conflict with that oath are illegal and in fact criminal in nature. Police have no more right to take your liberties, freedoms and privacies than they have to take your furniture from your home. To not protest the possibility of these actions prior to their happening is to invite more acts of violence and death, such as those at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

There are many in government and law enforcement who see our acquiescence to these unconstitutional laws as "permission granted" to proceed. It would certainly be to our advantage to address these issues, in numbers, to the law enforcement command and control in our particular area.

Our greatest misconception lies in the belief our police are aware of their duty to the Constitution and to the citizens they serve. I have had the opportunity and the occasion to talk to many who have not a clue of their responsibilities and obligations as defined by the oath of office they took. Almost to the officer, they have indicated their allegiance lies with the particular governmental agency they see as their employer. In addition, the academies where most potential police receive their training have created an adversarial attitude among many officers as it relates to their relationship with the citizens of the particular community they serve. We have often been a witness to the fruits of this poisonous tree.

At your very next opportunity, ask a police officer who will answer what he/she would do if ordered by their department or command to instigate confiscation of all firearms from law abiding citizens in their jurisdiction. After you recover from the answer you receive, then ask what they would do if a citizen refused to surrender that firearm.

The answers provided should awaken you to the very real threat many of us will be facing in the not too distant future.
 

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