For Joe ©: a little edumacation for you

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hangin' about
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The Libertarian Heritage: The American Revolution and Classical Liberalism:

http://www.mises.org/story/2123


Anarcho-Capitalism, by Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism


How Would Anarcho-Capitalism Work?

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm#part10


Anarchism FAQ, including left-anarchy, right-anarchy, minarchism, and anarchism as it relates to pacifism. Plus a host of other stuff.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm


Conservatism and Libertarianism:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2749.html
http://www.amconmag.com/11_17_03/cover.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/blanchette1.html


Leftism and Libertarianism:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/red-state-fascism.html
http://www.mises.org/story/2099
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism


Those should make for good starting points. They should also hopefully quell this idiotic notion you have that I'm in it for the legalised pot.
 
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Joe is so neocon, he'd be better off stating he was facist. The day Joe C reads about libertarianism is the day Michael Jackson becomes black again. There really is no hope X.

BDiz..
 

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bdizzle said:
Joe is so neocon, he'd be better off stating he was facist. The day Joe C reads about libertarianism is the day Michael Jackson becomes black again. There really is no hope X.

BDiz..

True. But at least now, every time he calls himself libertarian, calls me socialist, or goes on some ill-informed rant about how he can't get an anti-statist to 'talk about the pragmatic realities of how it would work' then at least I can keep bringing up this thread as the only required response. It will save me a lot of typing.
 

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This is hilarious.

Because I refuse to fall for the kaka Panda is libertarian and/or anarcho-capitalist, suddenly, I don't understand the concept of either.

Puleaze.

The fact is, I have far more in common with a Phaedrus or a levistep (both card carrying “anarcho-capitalists”) than I ever will with the average Canadian bleeding heart, like yourself. I’d have to make an effort in order to get myself into a tussle with any of those two. I won't speak for either, but I do know none would ever vote L-I-B-E-R-A-L during elections. I also suspect both could appreciate and be persuaded to sign up for the policies of a Stephen Harper, whereas you have shown an utter contempt for a man who embodies virtually all of the free-market values you claim to be in love with. (Bullshit!) In contrast, neither Phaedrus nor levi could ever under any circumstances, be persuaded to vote for a political candidate leaning ‘left.’ NEVER! While both have expressed dissatisfaction with Republicans, they hold an utter contempt for Democrats – namely the values they stand for and the mindset the average liberal embodies.

The same cannot be said for you, peaches.

So where am I going with this? Here's what I believe, and it has little to do with my purported lack of understanding where libertarians and anarcho-capitalists are concerned (I’ve read plenty of both, thanks for asking):

From the beginning, each person begins their political self awareness and journey from a left or right, and with few exceptions, an individual rarely strays from their original mindset.

If someone claims they are fed up with all parties, for whatever reasons, and you want to figure out the essence of a person’s political core, (righty or lefty) just ask them which party they have a deeper contempt for; Democrats or Republicans. It’s a simple equation, really.

First, every modern democracy offers 2-3 political parties which can be classified as ‘left’ and ‘right.’ (In Canada, before the Reform party/Alliance/growing Conservative base, it was left, more left and most left.) Second, a political system exceeding the standard two-three mainstream political parties becomes dysfunctional. This is also why I believe divorcing oneself from the political mainstream (the two dominant parties in one’s country) defeats the purpose of becoming engaged in politics in the first place. If you are serious about change, your energy is better spent engaging and influencing the public, beginning with the party which reflects the core of your political beliefs, rather than starting from scratch. In Canada, for example, an “independent” can’t even become PM. Only the leader of the ruling party can. In the US, many conservatives decided to vote for an “independent” and their reward was Bill Clinton for 8 years.

So therein lies the essence of my theory. While an individual’s political ideology does evolve and his support for one party to the next may change, we all remain righties or lefties at our core. Forget political parties, liberalism is a mindset. Liberals act, think and express themselves a certain way, before they are even old enough to vote. Most liberals who have spent a large portion exposed to leftist brainwashing are just that.

And no amount of fancy rhetoric will change the fact you, Panda, have more in common with liberals, socialists, and – surprise -- ‘statists’ than I ever will. No ‘righty’ disenchanted with the current Republican party, would for example, waste as much time as you do, flogging far-left sacred cows such as homosexual “rights,” women’s “rights,” abortion, animal “rights,” decrying firearms, carping incessantly about the war etc. They'd be bitching more about socialism and wealth redistribution.

Liberalism is a mindset. It's been called a mental disorder and Ann Coulter thinks it's a religion. Personally, I think it’s a cult, based on ideas counterintuitive to our own human nature. People that belong to cults lash out at those who do not conform to their brainwashed beliefs and values, which is what liberals do. And people like Ann Coulter make a very good living tapping into the essence of these leftist thinking patterns -- what we simply call liberalism.

So now that I’ve decided you’re a liberal at the core, forever and ever Amen, you can stop underestimating my intelligence, sprouting this nonsense I don’t understand what a libertarian and anarcho-capitalist stands for.

Panda = lefty.

Just remember to be nice to Doc (another who calls himself ‘independent’) because ultimately, he’s on your side -- something I'm sure both of you lose a few hours of sleep over every night. :>Grin>
 

bushman
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...I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship...
 

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xpanda said:
The Libertarian Heritage: The American Revolution and Classical Liberalism:

http://www.mises.org/story/2123


Anarcho-Capitalism, by Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism


How Would Anarcho-Capitalism Work?

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm#part10


Anarchism FAQ, including left-anarchy, right-anarchy, minarchism, and anarchism as it relates to pacifism. Plus a host of other stuff.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/anarfaq.htm


Conservatism and Libertarianism:

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2749.html
http://www.amconmag.com/11_17_03/cover.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/blanchette1.html


Leftism and Libertarianism:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/red-state-fascism.html
http://www.mises.org/story/2099
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism


Those should make for good starting points. They should also hopefully quell this idiotic notion you have that I'm in it for the legalised pot.

Liberatrian, progressive, liberal - call it what you want, dress it however you like, it's all shades of big brother to me. It's all based on individual freedom to the neglect of individual responsibility. There are no expectations in these mirror ideologies.

Give me good old traditional American and family values. Give me liberal capitalism. Give me some good old fashioned religion with a lot of moral clarity. Give me a culture where personal responsibility is a cornerstone; where there are personal expectations. Give me a government that's more concerned with protecting me and mine and less concerned with protecting thugs and foreign enemies. Give me the melting pot and that great mix of cultures that makes us what we are.
 

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It's like I start talking, and Joe immediately puts his hands over his ears yelling, 'lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala.'
 

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bblight said:
Liberatrian, progressive, liberal - call it what you want, dress it however you like, it's all shades of big brother to me. It's all based on individual freedom to the neglect of individual responsibility. There are no expectations in these mirror ideologies.

Give me good old traditional American and family values. Give me liberal capitalism. Give me some good old fashioned religion with a lot of moral clarity. Give me a culture where personal responsibility is a cornerstone; where there are personal expectations. Give me a government that's more concerned with protecting me and mine and less concerned with protecting thugs and foreign enemies. Give me the melting pot and that great mix of cultures that makes us what we are.

bblight, it is people like yourself that make America, what Ronald Reagan often called, "the shining city upon a hill." :103631605

[FONT=&quot]"The past few days when I've been at that window upstairs, I've thought a bit of the ``shining city upon a hill.'' The phrase comes from John Winthrop, who wrote it to describe the [/FONT]<st1:country-region><st1:place>[FONT=&quot]America[/FONT]</st1:place></st1:country-region>[FONT=&quot] he imagined. What he imagined was important because he was an early Pilgrim, an early freedom man. He journeyed here on what today we'd call a little wooden boat; and like the other Pilgrims, he was looking for a home that would be free.<o:p></o:p>[/FONT][FONT=&quot]<o:p> </o:p>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.<o:p></o:p>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]<o:p> </o:p>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And how stands the city on this winter night? More prosperous, more secure, and happier than it was 8 years ago. But more than that: After 200 years, two centuries, she still stands strong and true on the granite ridge, and her glow has held steady no matter what storm. And she's still a beacon, still a magnet for all who must have freedom, for all the pilgrims from all the lost places who are hurtling through the darkness, toward home."
[/FONT]
-- Ronald Reagan
 

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Give me some good old fashioned religion with a lot of moral clarity= there is no such thing........................................
 

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bblight said:
Liberatrian, progressive, liberal - call it what you want, dress it however you like, it's all shades of big brother to me. It's all based on individual freedom to the neglect of individual responsibility.


What?!?! Are you for real Joe? You are saying Libertarianism neglects individual responsibility? That is pure BS right there.

X is correct, you clearly have no dinstiction of different political stances. You really should read the links she posted.:103631605

BDiz...
 

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bdizzle said:
What?!?! Are you for real Joe? You are saying Libertarianism neglects individual responsibility? That is pure BS right there.

X is correct, you clearly have no dinstiction of different political stances. You really should read the links she posted.:103631605

BDiz...

I did read some of them. And as if I didn't read dozens more prior to my "edumacation"...

Does Panda honestly believe just because I don’t agree with her views that I must be uneducated???????? As I've been saying, it's her arrogant mindset I have a problem with. I don't hate her (or anyone for that matter) but man....

First of all, I didn't say libertarians neglect individual responsibility, bblight did. But now that you mentioned it, I will say, more often than I care to rehash, some libertarians can be prone to marching lock and step with their far left cousins, focusing all their energy on the 'rights' of the perpetrator committing the crime, while practically ignoring the victims. On matters of foreign policy, too often, they use the same arguments the run-of-the-mill John Lennon 1960s pacifist uses: war is wrong, big bad military industrial complex…blah blah, blah....

Don't we all live for such insight.

Look, there aren't any lewrockwell fanatics banging on about the ongoing disgusting genocide in Darfur but you can be damn sure if the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> sends troops, they'll be posting articles of all bloodshed and horror they are causing, not even mentioning the previous status-quo. It's patently dishonest, and it’s the same far left rotting garbage you get from limousine liberals cut'n;pasted by Doc Mercer and co.

So yes, I proudly try to distance myself from this type of elitist I-Hate-America/America-Is-An-Evil-Empire, Euro-prattle. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
 

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Does Panda honestly believe just because I don’t agree with her views that I must be uneducated????????

I believed you didn't understand libertarianim and anarcho-capitalism because of this post by you, just yesterday:

Unfortunately, cautiously erring on the side of liberty is not how I would characterize most modern "libertarians." Many of today’s libertarians tend to be, as Panda calls herself, "anti-statists" – period. During many debates, I have found it nearly impossible to pin these “anti-statists” down on the pragmatic realities of how such a world could actually exist. (After all, it becomes a mute point to be “anti-statist,” if the rapist down the street and the tyranical psychopath across the ocean, do not embrace your utopian ideology.) This is because most “anti-statists” are really nothing more than today's run-of-the-mill pacifist. And the majority of pacifists have always belonged to obscure religious sects or were simply humanitarians who objected to taking life and prefered not to follow their thoughts beyond that point -- perfect ideology for someone who goes haywire at the thought of a spider being squashed. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists (today’s "anti-statist") one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against the United States. This is clearly the ideology Panda has embraced, as evidenced in many of her nonsensical hyperbolic rants.

So today’s modern "libertarian" embodies the same mindset as the the John Lennon wannabee who was marching in anti-war rallies back in the 60s. They are nothing more than refined hippies still rebelling against the “the establishment.” Back then they were Communist. The difference is, it’s not cool to be a Communist anymore (who wants to associate themselves with being on the wrong side of history) so after the Cold War, they had to rework the packaging a little: change the hairstyle, the bumper sticker, ditch the orange VW bus, and voila: the modern libertarian.

"Peace, love, dope," isn't that right, Panda?

It seems pretty clear to me that you have a notion of libertarianism and anarchism based more on your impressions of me than on the musings of the intellectuals behind the movement(s). Because you believe that I am a pacifist, all anti-statists must be so. Because you believe that I am not a fan of killing spiders (this is true) that means all anti-statists must abhor the same. Because you believe that I am a socialist, you believe that all anti-statists are wannabe communists looking for something more hip.

Anarchism can actually be a profoundly intellectual study if you're willing. I thought perhaps - since you have an impression that anti-statists are recycled John Lennon fans - that you might find a more intellectual approach interesting and educational.

I have, literally, been studying this philosophy for the better part of the past two years. This study has not included painting a VW van in pretty flowers, wearing Berkenstocks, and drowning my home in incense. Instead, it has included literature by Smith, Nock, Locke, Mises, Hayek, Friedman and a host of others. I figured I would do you a favour by introducing you to some of this stuff, since you clearly mischaracterised the ideology in your post cited above.

At any rate, I apologise for offering up an intellectual approach to anarchism that I thought you might enjoy. Clearly you prefer to stay in your world of pre-determined notions and close-mindedness. I won't interrrupt this again, kitten, don't worry.

Carry on.
 
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Contrarian: Ya mean This RONNIE REAGAN??

In July 1985, President Reagan denounced Iran as part of a "confederation of terrorist states" which had committed "outright acts of war" against the U.S. He declared Iran to be an enemy of the United States:

"Iran, Libya, North Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua -- continents away, tens of thousands of miles apart, but the same goals and objectives. I submit to you that the growth in terrorism in recent years results from the increasing involvement of these states in terrorism in every region of the world. This is terrorism that is part of a pattern, the work of a confederation of terrorist states. Most of the terrorists who are kidnapping and murdering American citizens and attacking American installations are being trained, financed, and directly or indirectly controlled by a core group of radical and totalitarian governments -- a new, international version of Murder, Incorporated. And all of these states are united by one simple criminal phenomenon -- their fanatical hatred of the United States, our people, our way of life, our international stature."​
And yet only 39 days after making that speech, Reagan's men began furnishing some of these fanatical America haters with what would eventually amount to 107 tons of anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles. These shipments continued for more than a year. They even continued beyond August 1986, when President Reagan signed into law a federal ban on arms sales to terrorist nations, which included Iran.

That's how he committed treason. But if Ronald Reagan's a traitor, he also had a whole bunch of accomplices. Like his Vice President, George HW Bush. But thanks to some convenient Presidential pardons, everybody got away scot-free.
But why would they do this? What rationale did they have for selling missiles to a bunch of terrorists? Why would our highest elected leaders commit treason against their own country?
 

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To add to XPanda's remarks. I think she would classify herself as a Libertarian as I do myself. However there is no "clear" line on our party' view. Xpanda and I have opposing views on guns where in which I support legalization of all automatic machine guns, AK-47's and all. Xpanda is more reserved on this issue. So to stereo-type our party and say we all follow this "clear-cut" path or follow our "liberal cousins" is obsurd IMO. I generally agree with most republican viewpoints, hence why I don't agree with Mr. Danger because he doesn't follow a "truly conservative" path, a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Futhermore, not "all" Libertarians support legalization of ALL drugs. Some say legalize pot, others say all drugs. I typically don't rate this as a big issue for me to be concerned with as gun laws and domestic spying but generally say, will legalization of all drugs really create more violence than their already is and will everyone just all up and decide to buy some blow from the 7-11... my answer to that would be NO.

In closing, please read up more on the Libertarian Party before you make stero-typical and false assumptions. I have agreed with you and X on many things but on this one, I disagree with you.

BDiz..
 

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Just to clarify, BD: my opposition to guns is personal. It is (no longer) something I believe should be enforced by law. I personally am uncomfortable with them, but that doesn't mean I expect laws be passed - or upheld - that force you to be uncomfortable with them, too.
 

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xpanda said:
Just to clarify, BD: my opposition to guns is personal. It is (no longer) something I believe should be enforced by law. I personally am uncomfortable with them, but that doesn't mean I expect laws be passed - or upheld - that force you to be uncomfortable with them, too.

Understandable. You clarified that a while ago in the guns thread. I wasn't trying to bring it up again, just solely using it as a reference for Joe's "Cookie Cutter theory" being flawed.

BDiz..
 

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Panda,

The essence of my original post was,

"Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists (today’s "anti-statist") one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against the United States..."

Now followed by,

"On matters of foreign policy, too often, they use the same arguments the run-of-the-mill John Lennon 1960s pacifist uses: war is wrong, big bad military industrial complex…blah blah, blah...."

And then,

"Look, there aren't any lewrockwell fanatics banging on about the ongoing disgusting genocide in Darfur but you can be damn sure if the U.S. sends troops, they'll be posting articles of all bloodshed and horror they are causing, not even mentioning the previous status-quo. It's patently dishonest, and it’s the same far left rotting garbage you get from limousine liberals cut'n;pasted by Doc Mercer and co."

And Finally,

"So yes, I proudly try to distance myself from this type of elitist I-Hate-America/America-Is-An-Evil-Empire, Euro-prattle."

If you want to know how this started, it was because you insist on labeling me a 'statist.' Why? I have no idea. I merely fired back -- for once. No, actually that's not quite right. I've tried to engage where YOUR own political philosophy is concerned, many times, on many fronts, yet I’m sorry to say, you have shown yourself incapable of maintaining the pace. No harm, no foul. What's puzzling is, what makes you think others will fare any better? If you have spent two years intensely researching one philosophy or another, and you can't provide an answer to common everyday challenges, I suspect the answers aren't as evident as the philosophical professors would have you believe. Obviously, you are not the first person I have engaged on this subject. And experience tells me, anyone who leans heavily on a particular philosophy through a debate when dealing with pragmatic issues, such as world threats, will find themselves at a disadvantage, as it is.

I consider myself pragmatic which doesn't make me a 'statist.' It's like this: if my enemy embodies contrasting beliefs and values, is well organized and building a formidable military, which can only be countered through a massive state-sponsored "military industrial complex" this doesn't make me a 'statist' -- only a realist who believes my values are worth fighting for.

I must tell you, I’ve been eagerly waiting the knock-out punch, hoping I was wrong, yet thus far you haven’t been able to deliver it. Yet according to you, I’m still a ‘statist’ – as if by choice.

It's perfectly acceptable to believe in any philosophy -- i.e. it's wrong to kill spiders; it's wrong to eat meat etc. Nobody is placing judgment or ridiculing your beliefs. If it works for ya, all the power to you. Where you usually go wrong is when you bring these personal beliefs into an area such as politics, placing judgment upon others -- most often toward your American friends: it's wrong to kill; wrong to bomb; the "aggressor" is wrong (as if the current geopolitical landscape is that simple) etc.

It’s the judgmental holier-than-thou posture so prevalent on many of these political websites (*cough* liberal) which make them irresistible target practice – especially once their philosophy/beliefs has been proven fallacious. and ludicrous.

C'mon buttercup, prove me wrong. I love getting wrestled to the ground by a woman. :>Grin>
 

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