Dow at 17,000. What's more likely to happen first: it drops to 15,000 or continues to 20,000?

Search

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
10,451
Tokens
US equity markets are being propped up by cheap money and leverage. The Fed has distorted the yield curve, forcing savers into risk assets. This party will end at some point, but as long as the Fed is able to keep rates at artificial levels, equities will continue to melt up. The equity markets are more levered now than they were in 2008, margin debt levels are approaching $400B. You are already starting to see some cracks in the fixed income markets, which may be a prelude of things to come. High yield debt issuance has come to a screeching halt recently after over $300B of covenant light crap being unloaded on unsuspecting, yield chasing muppets in 2014. The fact that small caps have performed so poorly this year is also an indicator that we may be reaching the late innings of this game. Very few assets classes right now that are offering a good tone Lightrisk/reward trade-off. Emerging markets have been the place to be this year, after significantly lagging the developed markets in 2013. Gold appears to be range bound for the time being. I don't know that we see another 2008 type blowup any time soon, but I do feel that we will have a correction which tests the 1560 level on the S&P.
That would been so much easier to read if I didn't keep glancing over at a guy carrying as case of Keystone Light.
 

Member
Handicapper
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
19,007
Tokens
Yep, sold my shares of Reynolds on Monday.......should have sold Health South as well.......gonna sell it next week.
 

Kev

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
783
Tokens
Lots of high PE ratios right now. It's going to get a haircut until many come down to 20.
 

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
31,646
Tokens
Definitely overvalued but that can mean a lot of different things, historical valuations compared to the modern market kinda BS anyway. Just because stocks were way undervalued until like 1990 doesn't mean it is ever going to return that level unless SHTF like circa '08. It can mean a bubble pops or it could just mean much slower growth/sideways trading going forward for next few years. A lot more likely 20 P/E is the norm going forward.

I do think if you got growth stocks that have just exploded like TSLA, FB, WWAV, etc it is probably a good time to take a profit or do so as soon as it hits long-term gains territory. If your just in blue chips like SO/J&J just see what happens....
 

New member
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
2,131
Tokens
Three months later and the Dow is still right at 17,000. That is after rebounding from around 16,100 just two weeks ago.

Obviously three months is a very small timeframe but just curious if most have the exact same positions or if anything has happened to change their minds.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,615
Tokens
Nothing's changed in my mind; 20 before 15 and it may not ever see 15 again barring a 1929, 1987 or 2008-style meltdown.
 

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
3,255
Tokens
No more QE , bye bye Dow . When we break the 200 day Mvg this time, we ain't comin back . Look for deteriorating economic numbers going forward until the Fed gives in , and comes back with guns a blazing.
 

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
31,646
Tokens
considering bond/MBS buying is just coming to an end, wouldn't a lot of foward guidance on that policy be already priced into the market?

If it isn't priced in right now then it better be coming real soon.
 

Oh boy!
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
38,373
Tokens
considering bond/MBS buying is just coming to an end, wouldn't a lot of foward guidance on that policy be already priced into the market?

If it isn't priced in right now then it better be coming real soon.

I thought when the Fed announced QE1, 2, 3, 4, etc. that the price would already be priced in but it kept going up and up and up. I see the reverse happening here. I just bought some SDS which is a 2X inverse of the S&P.

I read where George Soros' fund has a record high percentage of its portfolio in puts on the S&P which is either insurance against a loss or a heavy investment in such.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
2,131
Tokens
considering bond/MBS buying is just coming to an end, wouldn't a lot of foward guidance on that policy be already priced into the market?

If it isn't priced in right now then it better be coming real soon.

Agree. That should already be figured into the market. Everyone already knows all of that. This isn't a secret that only therxforum knows.
 

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
31,646
Tokens
Agree. That should already be figured into the market. Everyone already knows all of that. This isn't a secret that only therxforum knows.

we heard for 5 years that when QE ended shit was a wrap.

People gotta comeup with a new black swan event now. Maybe rates rising? social unrest? I dunno, I'd make a poor doom and gloomer.
 

Banned
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
15,948
Tokens
we heard for 5 years that when QE ended shit was a wrap.

People gotta comeup with a new black swan event now. Maybe rates rising? social unrest? I dunno, I'd make a poor doom and gloomer.
The doom and gloomers calling the market to tank, are usually rooting, hoping, and praying, for the market to tank, to fit their own political agenda. They're too emotionally invested in it. Each big drop, they think, and root and confidently proclaim that they're finally right. Then the market bounces back to where it was, or above, and the cycle repeats. This market is remarkably resilient for the last 5.5 years. It's like Rocky Balboa. It gets knocked down, but won't stay down, and keeps getting up and is stronger than before, no matter the cause of the decline.
 

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
3,255
Tokens
The doom and gloomers calling the market to tank, are usually rooting, hoping, and praying, for the market to tank, to fit their own political agenda. They're too emotionally invested in it. Each big drop, they think, and root and confidently proclaim that they're finally right. Then the market bounces back to where it was, or above, and the cycle repeats. This market is remarkably resilient for the last 5.5 years. It's like Rocky Balboa. It gets knocked down, but won't stay down, and keeps getting up and is stronger than before, no matter the cause of the decline.


The market has been resilient because the Fed has increased their balance sheet by 3.5 trillion dollars , period . When the bond market starts to get nervous about when the FED will start to unwind it, this party is over. Right now they are buying into the talk, soon they will want action

That's the whole story. Today the BOJ did their part .
 

New member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
3,432
Tokens
Most of 3.5 trillion that the Fed has printed is parked at the Fed in the form of excess reserves, earning the banks a risk-free 25 bps. The Fed can allow their portfolio to run off, as most the money has not made it's way into the real economy, as seen by the continued decline in M2 velocity and the lack of wage pressure. Capital flows are driving our markets. When compared to the rates you can get on German bunds, JGB's, Gilds, ect, our treasuries look pretty attractive. Combine this with a lack of supply due to the shrinking of our budget deficits, and you have the most clear and logical explanation why rates remain subdued in the wake of a rising equity market. Foreigners are buying up our financial assets, and these flows will continue as the rest of the world fights off deflation and attempts to weaken their currencies.
 

bet365 player
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
7,609
Tokens
we heard for 5 years that when QE ended shit was a wrap.

People gotta comeup with a new black swan event now. Maybe rates rising? social unrest? I dunno, I'd make a poor doom and gloomer.

QE hasn't ended yet. The Japs just picked up where Yellen left off, when they pause, it's Super Mario's turn to hit the printer, then back to Sugar Mama Yellen, the party goes on....
 

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
15,353
Tokens
Honestly its a joke.

It got hammered down with Ebola news a few weeks back and they just artificially put it right back where it was.

The naysayers have been saying for years the implosion is coming. It is. Who knows when, bc they just keep pumping and manipulating.
 

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
3,255
Tokens
Most of 3.5 trillion that the Fed has printed is parked at the Fed in the form of excess reserves, earning the banks a risk-free 25 bps. The Fed can allow their portfolio to run off, as most the money has not made it's way into the real economy, as seen by the continued decline in M2 velocity and the lack of wage pressure. Capital flows are driving our markets. When compared to the rates you can get on German bunds, JGB's, Gilds, ect, our treasuries look pretty attractive. Combine this with a lack of supply due to the shrinking of our budget deficits, and you have the most clear and logical explanation why rates remain subdued in the wake of a rising equity market. Foreigners are buying up our financial assets, and these flows will continue as the rest of the world fights off deflation and attempts to weaken their currencies.


Actually, a good portion of that money went to foreign banks, close to 700 billion. The inflation that the fed has created has been used by U.S. banks to lever up and prop up the markets. The budget deficit has come down only because of the ability to maintain these Low rates, as the Fed has rebated profits back to the treasury, the GSE are profitable because of the propped up housing markets and bond market bubble, and the tax increases . What will happen to those carry trades if the economy slips back into recession? What will the fed do? Any economic benefit we have had is ONLY because the FEd has back stopped all the reckless spending and created a stock and bond market bubble. We have been fortunate to be able to export our inflation but there is not a chance that the FED will just be able to allow their portfolio to " run off " Who will be redeeming these. Bonds anyway, and where will that money come from? The FED is now the largest owner of treasuries, and the rest of the world is betting big, we will be raising rates shortly and selling down tha balance sheet

Its not going to be pretty when this unravels
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,858
Messages
13,574,233
Members
100,878
Latest member
fo88giftt
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com