"You libs really are pitiful, it's the old "do you believe me or your lying eyes?" when you're confronted with obviously bogus memos. How many people have to line up and refute these documents before you libs will admit they lack authenticity? Your standard answer is "well he lied about WMD, or weaker still, well he didn't take a physical when he was ordered (bogus) 30 years ago" or some other bilge."
Actually pitiful is presenting forged documents to the U.N. as justification for starting a war. This is trivial in comparison.
Actually pitiful is presenting forged documents to the U.N. as justification for starting a war. This is trivial in comparison.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kaya man:
Actually pitiful is presenting forged documents to the U.N. as justification for starting a war. This is trivial in comparison. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Kaya...you need to get a bit more up to date.
http://www.nytimes.com/financialtimes/business/FT1087373295002.html
Intelligence backs claim Iraq tried to buy uranium
By Mark Huband in Rome
Published: June 27, 2004
Illicit sales of uranium from Niger were being negotiated with five states including Iraq at least three years before the US-led invasion, senior European intelligence officials have told the Financial Times.
Intelligence officers learned between 1999 and 2001 that uranium smugglers planned to sell illicitly mined Nigerien uranium ore, or refined ore called yellow cake, to Iran, Libya, China, North Korea and Iraq.
These claims support the assertion made in the British government dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programme in September 2002 that Iraq had sought to buy uranium from an African country, confirmed later as Niger. George W. Bush, US president, referred to the issue in his State of the Union address in January 2003.
The claim that the illicit export of uranium was under discussion was widely dismissed when letters referring to the sales - apparently sent by a Nigerien official to a senior official in Saddam Hussein's regime - were proved by the International Atomic Energy Agency to be forgeries. This embarrassed the US and led the administration to reverse its earlier claim.
But European intelligence officials have for the first time confirmed that information provided by human intelligence sources during an operation mounted in Europe and Africa produced sufficient evidence for them to believe that Niger was the centre of a clandestine international trade in uranium.
Officials said the fake documents, which emerged in October 2002 and have been traced to an Italian with a record for extortion and deception, added little to the picture gathered from human intelligence and were only given weight by the Bush administration.
According to a senior counter-proliferation official, meetings between Niger officials and would-be buyers from the five countries were held in several European countries, including Italy. Intelligence officers were convinced that the uranium would be smuggled from abandoned mines in Niger, thereby circumventing official export controls. "The sources were trustworthy. There were several sources, and they were reliable sources," an official involved in the European intelligence gathering operation said.
The UK government used the details in its Iraq weapons dossier, which it used to justify war with Iraq after concluding that it corresponded with other information it possessed, including evidence gathered by GCHQ, the UK eavesdropping centre, of a visit to Niger by an Iraqi official.
However, the European investigation suggested that it was the smugglers who were actively looking for markets, though it was unclear how far the deals had progressed and whether deliveries of uranium were made.
Actually pitiful is presenting forged documents to the U.N. as justification for starting a war. This is trivial in comparison. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Kaya...you need to get a bit more up to date.
http://www.nytimes.com/financialtimes/business/FT1087373295002.html
Intelligence backs claim Iraq tried to buy uranium
By Mark Huband in Rome
Published: June 27, 2004
Illicit sales of uranium from Niger were being negotiated with five states including Iraq at least three years before the US-led invasion, senior European intelligence officials have told the Financial Times.
Intelligence officers learned between 1999 and 2001 that uranium smugglers planned to sell illicitly mined Nigerien uranium ore, or refined ore called yellow cake, to Iran, Libya, China, North Korea and Iraq.
These claims support the assertion made in the British government dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programme in September 2002 that Iraq had sought to buy uranium from an African country, confirmed later as Niger. George W. Bush, US president, referred to the issue in his State of the Union address in January 2003.
The claim that the illicit export of uranium was under discussion was widely dismissed when letters referring to the sales - apparently sent by a Nigerien official to a senior official in Saddam Hussein's regime - were proved by the International Atomic Energy Agency to be forgeries. This embarrassed the US and led the administration to reverse its earlier claim.
But European intelligence officials have for the first time confirmed that information provided by human intelligence sources during an operation mounted in Europe and Africa produced sufficient evidence for them to believe that Niger was the centre of a clandestine international trade in uranium.
Officials said the fake documents, which emerged in October 2002 and have been traced to an Italian with a record for extortion and deception, added little to the picture gathered from human intelligence and were only given weight by the Bush administration.
According to a senior counter-proliferation official, meetings between Niger officials and would-be buyers from the five countries were held in several European countries, including Italy. Intelligence officers were convinced that the uranium would be smuggled from abandoned mines in Niger, thereby circumventing official export controls. "The sources were trustworthy. There were several sources, and they were reliable sources," an official involved in the European intelligence gathering operation said.
The UK government used the details in its Iraq weapons dossier, which it used to justify war with Iraq after concluding that it corresponded with other information it possessed, including evidence gathered by GCHQ, the UK eavesdropping centre, of a visit to Niger by an Iraqi official.
However, the European investigation suggested that it was the smugglers who were actively looking for markets, though it was unclear how far the deals had progressed and whether deliveries of uranium were made.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judge Wapner:
TT,talk to me when you have either adopted unwanted children or are pregnant.Then I think you would have a little more credibility on the subject.I have my opinion,but don't think it carries any weight because,I will never be a 16 year girl who is in the position to make this descion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you will never be a child who was brutally beaten by his father for 18 years either. These kids who go through this are very angry at the world and oftentimes become violent offenders in their adulthood. Using your logic, how can society punish these violent offenders when we cant know what it is like to be brutally beaten every day of your life for 18 years.
To say that we cant punish a girl for murdering her baby just because we arent 16 year old girls also is crazy.
Our society has a very sexist double standard here. We say we cant tell a woman what to do with her body, but during WW1 that same society told several million men what to do with their bodies ( drafted = get your ass to war or go to prison ), during WW2 we again told several million men what to do, and vietnam, etc. It will likely hyappen again real soon to, and dont worry if the draft is used it will be men only like always. After all, we cant tell women what to do with their bodies for 9 months - after they already made the choice to get pregnant, but we can tell men who had no choice whatsoever what to do for several years. War is a never ending hell, preganancy lasts for 9 months and then she can give the child up for adoption or let the father raise it if she chooses.
9 months vs a lifetime ?
Women have it so easy in this country.
TT,talk to me when you have either adopted unwanted children or are pregnant.Then I think you would have a little more credibility on the subject.I have my opinion,but don't think it carries any weight because,I will never be a 16 year girl who is in the position to make this descion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you will never be a child who was brutally beaten by his father for 18 years either. These kids who go through this are very angry at the world and oftentimes become violent offenders in their adulthood. Using your logic, how can society punish these violent offenders when we cant know what it is like to be brutally beaten every day of your life for 18 years.
To say that we cant punish a girl for murdering her baby just because we arent 16 year old girls also is crazy.
Our society has a very sexist double standard here. We say we cant tell a woman what to do with her body, but during WW1 that same society told several million men what to do with their bodies ( drafted = get your ass to war or go to prison ), during WW2 we again told several million men what to do, and vietnam, etc. It will likely hyappen again real soon to, and dont worry if the draft is used it will be men only like always. After all, we cant tell women what to do with their bodies for 9 months - after they already made the choice to get pregnant, but we can tell men who had no choice whatsoever what to do for several years. War is a never ending hell, preganancy lasts for 9 months and then she can give the child up for adoption or let the father raise it if she chooses.
9 months vs a lifetime ?
Women have it so easy in this country.
TEXAS GUARD SECRETARY SURFACES: SAYS CBS DOCS 'FORGERIES', BUT STANDS BY ACCUSATIONS AGAINST BUSH
The DRUDGE REPORT has found Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's former secretary who claims that the Texas Air National Guard documents offered by CBS in its 60 MINUTES II report filed by Dan Rather last week are indeed 'forgeries'.
"I did not type these particular memos. I typed memos like these," Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT from her home in Houston.
"I typed memos that had this information in them, but I did not type these memos. There are terms in these memos that are not Guard terms but that are Army terms. They use the word 'Billets'. I think they were using that to refer to the slot. That would be a non-flying slot the way we would use it. And the style... they are sloppy looking."
But Marion Carr Knox stands by the accusations contained in the allegedly fraudulent documents that Bush skirted a medical and flight exam without suffering institutional repercussions.
"The information in these memos is correct -- like Killian's dealing with the problems."
"It was General Staudt, not then Lt. Colonel Hodges [who succeeded Staudt], that was putting on the pressure to whitewash Bush. For instance he didnt take his flight examination or his physical. And the pilots had to take them by their birthdays. Once in a while there would be a reason why a pilot would miss these things because some of them were commercial pilots. But they had to make arrangements to take their exams."
Knox speculated as to how she thought the forgeries were created saying, "My guess is that someone in the outfit got hold of the real ones and discussed it with a former Army person."
Knox worked for the Guard from 1957 until she retired in 1979, and she was Lt. Col. Killian's secretary during the time President Bush served in Texas.
Contacted by the DRUDGE REPORT, Lt. Col. Killian's son Gary, who also served in the unit during the same period, responded: "I know Marion Carr. I remember her as a sweet lady who reminded me then of a dear aunt."
"But if Staudt had put pressure on my dad, there would have been a blow-up -- instantly. It was one of the reasons they got along so well. They had a mutual respect for one another."
"As has been pointed out by so many others, then Col Staudt had been out of the unit for 18 months. And I stand by my previous comments regarding my dad's admiration for Lt. Bush and his regard for him as an officer and pilot -- which was exemplary."
Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT that she did not vote for Bush in 2000 because he is 'unqualified' for the job, and does not intend to vote for him in 2004, either.
"Bush was not the only person of privilege who had a spot in the Guard. Senator [Lloyd] Bensen's nephew was in headquarters. There was a big jewelery store, Gordons. Their son was in the Guard. The owner of Batelstein's, a posh department store in the area, his son was in. The other kids couldn't get in like that. Hugh Roy Cullen's grandson was also in. He was a big oil man."
Knox, however, did have some kind words about then Lt. Bush.
"[Bush] was always pleasant and gentlemanly to me," she said. "I never noticed him not being respectful. I thought he was a nice young man and that he must have had very nice parents to produce a son as nice as he seemed to be."
Knox has been following the story since last week when the 60 MINUTES II broadcast aired, and on Friday she contacted the HOUSTON CHRONICLE wanting to tell her side of the story. Since then the DALLAS MORNING NEWS has also contacted her.
"What really hecked me off was when it was somebody on TV, associated with the White House, who said that all of this information was lies. And I got excited at the time because I knew that I had typed documents with this information because a person like Bush stood out from the others -- because of his association with his father."
Asked about reports that Lt. Col. Killian's wife and son saying he didn't type, Knox stated, "He didn't need to. He had me."
Knox explains that the August 18, 1973 date typed on one of the "forged" documents proves that they were faked. Group Commander Staudt, who allegedly had been putting pressure on Killian, retired in 1972.
To the best of her recollection, Knox explains that Staudt must have put pressure on Killian in 1972 -- the year he retired.
"If my father was going to type a CYA memo, which he didn't," Gary Killian responded. "He would have typed it himself because he wouldn't have wanted anyone to see it. But it's academic because Colonel Staudt had been out of the unit for 18 months -- as is well documented."
Contacted at his office in Bartlett, Texas, former Major Dean Roome, who served with Lt. Bush, responded to the latest information.
"If the memos are fraudulent, then why were they generated? Roome asked.
"Marion Carr Knox is validating what the rest of us are saying. She says once in a while a pilot would miss a physical because some of them were commercial pilots. I was also a commercial pilot with Continental Airlines. The clinic did not just open up for us to take a personal physical. The Flight Surgeons had to be there along with a full complement of medical personnel. We took our physical during the Uniformed Training Assembly (UTA) just like everyone else."
"The 'former Army person' she references is the person we believe may have created the fraudulent documents in an effort to injure President Bush. He has his own agenda and I doubt that he has any 'real ones' [documents].
Ms. Knox states emphatically that she is not acting for political motives, and has no formal relationship with any political party. She says she just wants to set the record straight.
The DRUDGE REPORT has found Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's former secretary who claims that the Texas Air National Guard documents offered by CBS in its 60 MINUTES II report filed by Dan Rather last week are indeed 'forgeries'.
"I did not type these particular memos. I typed memos like these," Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT from her home in Houston.
"I typed memos that had this information in them, but I did not type these memos. There are terms in these memos that are not Guard terms but that are Army terms. They use the word 'Billets'. I think they were using that to refer to the slot. That would be a non-flying slot the way we would use it. And the style... they are sloppy looking."
But Marion Carr Knox stands by the accusations contained in the allegedly fraudulent documents that Bush skirted a medical and flight exam without suffering institutional repercussions.
"The information in these memos is correct -- like Killian's dealing with the problems."
"It was General Staudt, not then Lt. Colonel Hodges [who succeeded Staudt], that was putting on the pressure to whitewash Bush. For instance he didnt take his flight examination or his physical. And the pilots had to take them by their birthdays. Once in a while there would be a reason why a pilot would miss these things because some of them were commercial pilots. But they had to make arrangements to take their exams."
Knox speculated as to how she thought the forgeries were created saying, "My guess is that someone in the outfit got hold of the real ones and discussed it with a former Army person."
Knox worked for the Guard from 1957 until she retired in 1979, and she was Lt. Col. Killian's secretary during the time President Bush served in Texas.
Contacted by the DRUDGE REPORT, Lt. Col. Killian's son Gary, who also served in the unit during the same period, responded: "I know Marion Carr. I remember her as a sweet lady who reminded me then of a dear aunt."
"But if Staudt had put pressure on my dad, there would have been a blow-up -- instantly. It was one of the reasons they got along so well. They had a mutual respect for one another."
"As has been pointed out by so many others, then Col Staudt had been out of the unit for 18 months. And I stand by my previous comments regarding my dad's admiration for Lt. Bush and his regard for him as an officer and pilot -- which was exemplary."
Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT that she did not vote for Bush in 2000 because he is 'unqualified' for the job, and does not intend to vote for him in 2004, either.
"Bush was not the only person of privilege who had a spot in the Guard. Senator [Lloyd] Bensen's nephew was in headquarters. There was a big jewelery store, Gordons. Their son was in the Guard. The owner of Batelstein's, a posh department store in the area, his son was in. The other kids couldn't get in like that. Hugh Roy Cullen's grandson was also in. He was a big oil man."
Knox, however, did have some kind words about then Lt. Bush.
"[Bush] was always pleasant and gentlemanly to me," she said. "I never noticed him not being respectful. I thought he was a nice young man and that he must have had very nice parents to produce a son as nice as he seemed to be."
Knox has been following the story since last week when the 60 MINUTES II broadcast aired, and on Friday she contacted the HOUSTON CHRONICLE wanting to tell her side of the story. Since then the DALLAS MORNING NEWS has also contacted her.
"What really hecked me off was when it was somebody on TV, associated with the White House, who said that all of this information was lies. And I got excited at the time because I knew that I had typed documents with this information because a person like Bush stood out from the others -- because of his association with his father."
Asked about reports that Lt. Col. Killian's wife and son saying he didn't type, Knox stated, "He didn't need to. He had me."
Knox explains that the August 18, 1973 date typed on one of the "forged" documents proves that they were faked. Group Commander Staudt, who allegedly had been putting pressure on Killian, retired in 1972.
To the best of her recollection, Knox explains that Staudt must have put pressure on Killian in 1972 -- the year he retired.
"If my father was going to type a CYA memo, which he didn't," Gary Killian responded. "He would have typed it himself because he wouldn't have wanted anyone to see it. But it's academic because Colonel Staudt had been out of the unit for 18 months -- as is well documented."
Contacted at his office in Bartlett, Texas, former Major Dean Roome, who served with Lt. Bush, responded to the latest information.
"If the memos are fraudulent, then why were they generated? Roome asked.
"Marion Carr Knox is validating what the rest of us are saying. She says once in a while a pilot would miss a physical because some of them were commercial pilots. I was also a commercial pilot with Continental Airlines. The clinic did not just open up for us to take a personal physical. The Flight Surgeons had to be there along with a full complement of medical personnel. We took our physical during the Uniformed Training Assembly (UTA) just like everyone else."
"The 'former Army person' she references is the person we believe may have created the fraudulent documents in an effort to injure President Bush. He has his own agenda and I doubt that he has any 'real ones' [documents].
Ms. Knox states emphatically that she is not acting for political motives, and has no formal relationship with any political party. She says she just wants to set the record straight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kaya man:
"Women have it so easy in this country."
Then they must have it even easier in Europe where abortion isn't even an issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you really saying that there is noone in Europe who is against abortion ? That there is no group who would like abortion to be illegal ? Come on.
Why is it that we cant tell women what to do with their bodies for 9 months after they make the choice to get pregnant, but we can tell 100,000,000 + men to take their bodies overseas and fight a war - or go to prison ?
"Women have it so easy in this country."
Then they must have it even easier in Europe where abortion isn't even an issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you really saying that there is noone in Europe who is against abortion ? That there is no group who would like abortion to be illegal ? Come on.
Why is it that we cant tell women what to do with their bodies for 9 months after they make the choice to get pregnant, but we can tell 100,000,000 + men to take their bodies overseas and fight a war - or go to prison ?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kaya man:
I'm simply pointing out that based on your logic then women in Europe have it even easier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Abortion is Legal in the U.S.
Abortion is legal in Europe.
Im not sure how that makes it easier in Europe.
I'm simply pointing out that based on your logic then women in Europe have it even easier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Abortion is Legal in the U.S.
Abortion is legal in Europe.
Im not sure how that makes it easier in Europe.
I dont know because I have never lived in Europe, but at least according to this article women and their "right" to kill an unborn child are far more protected in the west than in Europe.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4mv7dSfWQvAJ:www.ippf.org/regions/europe/choices/v28n2/editorial.htm+abortion+in+europe&hl=en
This is from that article
And in Eastern Europe, where women's reproductive rights are more myth than reality, there is hardly any progress -- at least not for the majority of women. On the issue of abortion, as on so many other human rights issues, the East-West divide has deepened in the past decade, in spite of many sincere and dedicated efforts to improve the condition of women in Eastern Europe
I just find it funny that in the U.S. we are always hearing about how bad women have it. They have the "right" to murder their unborn baby because the baby is an inconvienence to them. Geez how bad can they have it ?
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4mv7dSfWQvAJ:www.ippf.org/regions/europe/choices/v28n2/editorial.htm+abortion+in+europe&hl=en
This is from that article
And in Eastern Europe, where women's reproductive rights are more myth than reality, there is hardly any progress -- at least not for the majority of women. On the issue of abortion, as on so many other human rights issues, the East-West divide has deepened in the past decade, in spite of many sincere and dedicated efforts to improve the condition of women in Eastern Europe
I just find it funny that in the U.S. we are always hearing about how bad women have it. They have the "right" to murder their unborn baby because the baby is an inconvienence to them. Geez how bad can they have it ?
Did anyone catch Laura Bush's remarks?
[The documents were probably fakes. And I think that's terrible]
Ok Laura, in other words they are not fake because their contents is false ... rather the contents weren't proven yet because these were probably fake -- and she thinks that's terrible. Gotcha.
AWOL = not terrible. Not proving documents showing that AWOL guy was AWOL are 'authentic' = terrible.
Is that what dum-dum's wife is telling America?
Interesting selection of words.
[The documents were probably fakes. And I think that's terrible]
Ok Laura, in other words they are not fake because their contents is false ... rather the contents weren't proven yet because these were probably fake -- and she thinks that's terrible. Gotcha.
AWOL = not terrible. Not proving documents showing that AWOL guy was AWOL are 'authentic' = terrible.
Is that what dum-dum's wife is telling America?
Interesting selection of words.
Rob,
The Goverment does NOT creat jobs, they need to get out of the way and let the private sector create jobs. Kerry=more Gov regulations, which means less growth and jobs.
Americans do not want socialize medicine. Where would everyone go for operations if America became a Canada or a Cuba type system?
The Goverment does NOT creat jobs, they need to get out of the way and let the private sector create jobs. Kerry=more Gov regulations, which means less growth and jobs.
Americans do not want socialize medicine. Where would everyone go for operations if America became a Canada or a Cuba type system?
