I want JUSTICE, that's all I want. What do you want - a TV in his courtroom? Daily briefings of the details for the next two years? Do you want to watch the eleven year olds mother attend his court room appearance? Maybe you want to read a book written by him? Maybe you want to see the mother cry in front of TV cameras many more times?
I want a society that will give an eleven year old girl the oppurtunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Call me old fashioned. I think returning to the old fashioned ways may be just what the country needs to have prescribed.
I want a society that will give an eleven year old girl the oppurtunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Call me old fashioned. I think returning to the old fashioned ways may be just what the country needs to have prescribed.
Yeah and Patriot is suspiciously quiet on the fact that her father challenged Bush's brother and presumptive early favorite for 2008 nomination on why he was released, just like the hideous example he put out saying Kerry was like Dukakis. Get your s**t straight Patriot before you go out making some stupid and useless comment about how some kidnapping and murder should have anything to do with an election, especially when you go so far to claim he would do the same thing that you conveniently overlooked on someone I am sure you would vote for gladly. Beyond all the obvious attempts to politicize a tragedy, it just makes you look dumb to make a comment like that.
Go ahead bash me or anyone else for daring not to stand 100% in line with you, the more you do it, the dumber you look.
Go ahead bash me or anyone else for daring not to stand 100% in line with you, the more you do it, the dumber you look.
I want to live in a society where the horrific death of an eleven-year old girl invokes feelings of deep sorrow and lets justice lie in wait out of respect for the grieving process.
Beating your justice drums only hours after this family has found out about their daughter simply gives me the creeps.
Beating your justice drums only hours after this family has found out about their daughter simply gives me the creeps.
Joseph Smith ( child murderer )- Should he be allowed to vote in the next election? The demis would tell you yes ( well maybe not today ). But he will be convicted and become a felon and that is an important part of the core base of the democratic party.
Probation vs. Furlough, anyone know the difference when a prisoner is granted either? Do governers grant either one. Trying to see if Wildbill has a point about Bush. Was Lurch involved in anyway with the prisoner that killed someone when Dukakis was governer?
Probation vs. Furlough, anyone know the difference when a prisoner is granted either? Do governers grant either one. Trying to see if Wildbill has a point about Bush. Was Lurch involved in anyway with the prisoner that killed someone when Dukakis was governer?
Alright you libs that have the audacity and the gaul to say that one is heartless for not greiving first...Outrage and vengence is very much part of the grieving process.
And a lot of the outrage is not just about the passing of this young life, but the politicians like that who support legistlation and have been on watch while similar outrages have taken place and yet still support those positions....Kerry has supported those failed policys and continues to do so...Kerry has supported the positions of the Joe Smiths of the world in believing they deserve a 2nd chance at life,when more often than not their 2nd chance means sombodyelses death.
Its clear, if you believe that a guilty Joe Smith should be given a 2nd chance to kill then vote for John Kerry.
And a lot of the outrage is not just about the passing of this young life, but the politicians like that who support legistlation and have been on watch while similar outrages have taken place and yet still support those positions....Kerry has supported those failed policys and continues to do so...Kerry has supported the positions of the Joe Smiths of the world in believing they deserve a 2nd chance at life,when more often than not their 2nd chance means sombodyelses death.
Its clear, if you believe that a guilty Joe Smith should be given a 2nd chance to kill then vote for John Kerry.
"Yeah and Patriot is suspiciously quiet on the fact that her father challenged Bush's brother and presumptive early favorite for 2008 nomination on why he was released,"
WildBill,
You accuse Patriot of not knowing the facts yet you spew ignorance of your own.
You insinuate that this killer being on the street was somehow Jeb Bush's fault??
Look at the facts. This killer, Joseph Smith, was on the street because a Liberal State Judge in Florida by the name of Harry Rapkin (appointed by Democrat Governor Lawton Chiles n 1992)refused to rule that Smith violated his probation in early 2002.
Smith served 17 months in prison in 2001 and 2002 for heroin possession and prescription drug fraud. Eight days after he got out, he was arrested for cocaine possession and placed on probation for three years. He also got probation for aggravated battery in 1993 and heroin charges in 1999. A state correction official, Joe Papy, said that a probation officer had asked a judge (Rapkin) on Dec. 30 to declare Smith in violation of his probation because he had not paid all his fines and court costs. Papy said Circuit Judge Harry Rapkin declined to find Smith in violation, which could have returned him to jail.
So in fact it was the either incompetence or stupidity of a liberal Judge in not finding this monster in violation of his probation and sending him to prison that led to this girl's murder. The Probation Department tried several times to get this Judge to order Smith back to prison but the Judge refused.
WildBill,
You accuse Patriot of not knowing the facts yet you spew ignorance of your own.
You insinuate that this killer being on the street was somehow Jeb Bush's fault??
Look at the facts. This killer, Joseph Smith, was on the street because a Liberal State Judge in Florida by the name of Harry Rapkin (appointed by Democrat Governor Lawton Chiles n 1992)refused to rule that Smith violated his probation in early 2002.
Smith served 17 months in prison in 2001 and 2002 for heroin possession and prescription drug fraud. Eight days after he got out, he was arrested for cocaine possession and placed on probation for three years. He also got probation for aggravated battery in 1993 and heroin charges in 1999. A state correction official, Joe Papy, said that a probation officer had asked a judge (Rapkin) on Dec. 30 to declare Smith in violation of his probation because he had not paid all his fines and court costs. Papy said Circuit Judge Harry Rapkin declined to find Smith in violation, which could have returned him to jail.
So in fact it was the either incompetence or stupidity of a liberal Judge in not finding this monster in violation of his probation and sending him to prison that led to this girl's murder. The Probation Department tried several times to get this Judge to order Smith back to prison but the Judge refused.
I didn't insinuate that at all!!! I just pointed out that her father said it and here is Patriot making some incredibly stupid connection between Kerry and Dukakis while ignoring something said by the victim's father. That connection on Patriot's part was about as frickin stupid as if I said that Bush probably has been lying about all kinds of things in the intelligence probes because Nixon did the same thing 30 years ago. I would never make that assertion; to associate any two politicians simply because they both come from the same state and party is utterly ridiculous.
I was outraged as most were by the polticization of a tragedy, something all these conservatives in this forum have come rushing in to do now. The fact that Kerry is for or against the death penalty has nothing, zero, zilch to do with this. To come out and make the insane connection Patriot did and then to insinuate, along with the support of many others here, that if you dared vote for Kerry you are somehow sanctioning any behavior like this is an absolute insult and Patriot just keeps at it saying more "It is clear, if you think Joe Smith deserves another chance to kill, vote for John Kerry". There is no other way about it. Beyond just being in bad taste to use a tragedy for your stump, it is insulting to think that any voter or politician of any party would be the cause of such a terrible crime is politics gone way overboard. And that is precisely why I got upset with the whole thing.
It isn't a liberal or conservative judge, it isn't a liberal or conservative governor...it is a criminal and his actions, nothing more that are at issue here.
I was outraged as most were by the polticization of a tragedy, something all these conservatives in this forum have come rushing in to do now. The fact that Kerry is for or against the death penalty has nothing, zero, zilch to do with this. To come out and make the insane connection Patriot did and then to insinuate, along with the support of many others here, that if you dared vote for Kerry you are somehow sanctioning any behavior like this is an absolute insult and Patriot just keeps at it saying more "It is clear, if you think Joe Smith deserves another chance to kill, vote for John Kerry". There is no other way about it. Beyond just being in bad taste to use a tragedy for your stump, it is insulting to think that any voter or politician of any party would be the cause of such a terrible crime is politics gone way overboard. And that is precisely why I got upset with the whole thing.
It isn't a liberal or conservative judge, it isn't a liberal or conservative governor...it is a criminal and his actions, nothing more that are at issue here.
Wild Bill...it is far from being stupid.I am pointing out the type of voting record and stance that Kerry has been a part of his whole political life.
I am also pointing out the fact that if Kerry became President he would appoint the same liberal activest judges that support the coddling of the scum of our society than protection of victims...Pointing out facts are not politisizing anything...The fact of the matter is he WAS in fact part of an administrtion in Mass. that endorsed furloughs for 1st degree murders,of which one of just happened to go out and murder a family while on furlough.
I am just reminding you that when you vote for Kerry make sure you say a prayer for that 11 year old girl...and the ones that may follow her fate due to the very, very soft on crime liberal senator from Taxachussetts.
I am also pointing out the fact that if Kerry became President he would appoint the same liberal activest judges that support the coddling of the scum of our society than protection of victims...Pointing out facts are not politisizing anything...The fact of the matter is he WAS in fact part of an administrtion in Mass. that endorsed furloughs for 1st degree murders,of which one of just happened to go out and murder a family while on furlough.
I am just reminding you that when you vote for Kerry make sure you say a prayer for that 11 year old girl...and the ones that may follow her fate due to the very, very soft on crime liberal senator from Taxachussetts.
I agree with WildBill. The fate of Smith is not determine if Kerry wins the presidency. The fate lies with the jury and all the evidance that the prosecution provides. Nevertheless, I believe that fate is against Smith and he will suffer the consequences for his actions; and that is death.
Nevertheless, WildBill, I am a conservative and will definitley vote for Pres. George W. Bush, but I am not making this subject an issue against Kerry or for any other political matter against liberals.
Nevertheless, WildBill, I am a conservative and will definitley vote for Pres. George W. Bush, but I am not making this subject an issue against Kerry or for any other political matter against liberals.
Alex...I see what your saying...but Kerry record on the death penalty and being part of one thee most liberal adminstrations in Mass. on crime when he was Lt. govenor is where this guy stands.
I mean who could be more politcal than Kerry when he is trying to get as much milage out of the Nam war...I guess if he can politisize the deaths of 50K + americans.I guess as a citizen I can politsize his stance on the Wille Hortons and Joe Smiths of the world.
I mean who could be more politcal than Kerry when he is trying to get as much milage out of the Nam war...I guess if he can politisize the deaths of 50K + americans.I guess as a citizen I can politsize his stance on the Wille Hortons and Joe Smiths of the world.
Wild Bill,
I think you have made some very fair-minded and sensible posts in the past, but I think you have lost some of your past objectivity in this thread. Why is it "politicizing" the murder of this girl for conservatives to express their desire to see Joseph Smith receive the death penalty, but it's not "politicizing" for liberals to state their desire to not see the death penalty implemented? You did say that conservatives were politicizing the issue, but when I read this thread, I see BOTH liberals and conservatives making it political. Why do you single out the conservatives? Frankly, I'm disappointed, I always thought of you as a neutral arbiter in these political discussions, but your bias has shown through today.
I think you have made some very fair-minded and sensible posts in the past, but I think you have lost some of your past objectivity in this thread. Why is it "politicizing" the murder of this girl for conservatives to express their desire to see Joseph Smith receive the death penalty, but it's not "politicizing" for liberals to state their desire to not see the death penalty implemented? You did say that conservatives were politicizing the issue, but when I read this thread, I see BOTH liberals and conservatives making it political. Why do you single out the conservatives? Frankly, I'm disappointed, I always thought of you as a neutral arbiter in these political discussions, but your bias has shown through today.
And to the people who say that John Kerry as President would have NO bearing on this case, you are completely wrong. The President of the United States is responsible for the appointment of Supreme Court Justices, and the Supreme Court has the power to rule that the Death Penalty constitutes Cruel and Unusual Punishment under the Constitution, which would prevent ALL states from having the death penalty. And if you think this is far fetched, then you know NOTHING about history, because the Supreme Court DID rule this way in the early 1970's and ALL inmates on death row had their sentences retroactively commuted to life sentences as there was no "grandfather clause" for the use of the death penalty. It was only after the appointment of some conservative justices that the death penalty was made legal again.
Facts about death penalty:
Deterrence
It has never been shown that the death penalty deters violent crimes more effectively than other punishments.
A survey by the UN on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates concluded, "Research has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still
gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis..."
Recent crime figures from countries which have abolished the death penalty do not show that abolishment had any harmful effects.
Race
83% of capital cases involve white victims, even though only 50% of murder victims are white.
It is much more likely for someone to receive the death penalty when the victim is white, than when the person is not.
Innocence
Since 1973, over 80 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.
Researchers Radelet & Bedau found 23 cases since 1900 where innocent people were executed.
Retiring Florida Supreme Court Justice Gerald Kogan said he had "grave doubts" about the guilt of some of the people executed in Florida: "There are several cases where I had grave doubts as to the guilt of a particular person." . Kogan was a former homicide detective and prosecutor before eventually rising to Chief Justice.
The number of innocent defendants released from death row has been steadily increasing over recent years. Between 1973 and October, 1993, there was an average of 2.5 innocent defendants released. Since then, the average has increased to 4.6 released per year.
According to a 1987 study, three hundred and fifty people convicted of capital crimes in the United States between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed.
Costs
One of the most comprehensive studies on the death penalty in the country found the death penalty to cost North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.
On a national basis, this translates to an extra cost of over $1 billion dollars since 1976.
In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, which is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell with the highest level of security for forty years.
A 1998 report from the Nebraska Judiciary Committee states that any savings from executing an inmate are outweighed by the financial legal costs. The report concluded that the current death penalty law does not serve the best interest of Nebraskans.
The Judicial Conference of the United States reported that the defense costs in cases where death was sought were about four times higher than in comparable cases where death was not sought. It was also found that the prosecution costs in death cases were 67% higher than the defense costs, without even including the investigative costs provided by law enforcement agencies.
Sources:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/dpicrace.html http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm http://www.uscourts.gov/publications.html http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/dp/dpfacts.htm
wil.
Deterrence
It has never been shown that the death penalty deters violent crimes more effectively than other punishments.
A survey by the UN on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates concluded, "Research has failed to provide scientific proof that executions have a greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and such proof is unlikely to be forthcoming. The evidence as a whole still
gives no positive support to the deterrent hypothesis..."
Recent crime figures from countries which have abolished the death penalty do not show that abolishment had any harmful effects.
Race
83% of capital cases involve white victims, even though only 50% of murder victims are white.
It is much more likely for someone to receive the death penalty when the victim is white, than when the person is not.
Innocence
Since 1973, over 80 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.
Researchers Radelet & Bedau found 23 cases since 1900 where innocent people were executed.
Retiring Florida Supreme Court Justice Gerald Kogan said he had "grave doubts" about the guilt of some of the people executed in Florida: "There are several cases where I had grave doubts as to the guilt of a particular person." . Kogan was a former homicide detective and prosecutor before eventually rising to Chief Justice.
The number of innocent defendants released from death row has been steadily increasing over recent years. Between 1973 and October, 1993, there was an average of 2.5 innocent defendants released. Since then, the average has increased to 4.6 released per year.
According to a 1987 study, three hundred and fifty people convicted of capital crimes in the United States between 1900 and 1985 were innocent of the crimes charged. Some prisoners escaped execution by minutes, but 23 were actually executed.
Costs
One of the most comprehensive studies on the death penalty in the country found the death penalty to cost North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.
On a national basis, this translates to an extra cost of over $1 billion dollars since 1976.
In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, which is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell with the highest level of security for forty years.
A 1998 report from the Nebraska Judiciary Committee states that any savings from executing an inmate are outweighed by the financial legal costs. The report concluded that the current death penalty law does not serve the best interest of Nebraskans.
The Judicial Conference of the United States reported that the defense costs in cases where death was sought were about four times higher than in comparable cases where death was not sought. It was also found that the prosecution costs in death cases were 67% higher than the defense costs, without even including the investigative costs provided by law enforcement agencies.
Sources:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/dpicrace.html http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm http://www.uscourts.gov/publications.html http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/dp/dpfacts.htm
wil.
Wilheim,
Let me put this in terms so even a simpleton like you can understand it:
Question #1: If Smith is executed is he permanently deterred from ever committing another murder?
Question #2: If Smith is NOT executed is he permanently deterred from ever committing another murder?
Singular deterrence works. If executed, Smith WILL NEVER murder anyone again.
Let me put this in terms so even a simpleton like you can understand it:
Question #1: If Smith is executed is he permanently deterred from ever committing another murder?
Question #2: If Smith is NOT executed is he permanently deterred from ever committing another murder?
Singular deterrence works. If executed, Smith WILL NEVER murder anyone again.
