Without getting into any: we are all descended from 'illegal aliens' ourselves....
Somebody's gonna have to fund our non-sensical system as it's presently structured: all future education, welfare, child healthcare, social security, medicare, medicaid, hospice care, etc.
The avg person contributes 40 years worth of taxes, retires, then draws another 40 years on those lower-priced dollars, when the cost of living was much cheaper. This person supposedly will now survive on those meager contributions-- & worse even, will supposedly need all types of expensive, high-tech drugs in order to be kept semi-vegetatively alive for as long as possible.
This means that it takes the taxes of multiple persons, to maintain each retired person.
In NY State, from where i'm presently writing this missive-- the average household size is 2.59-- less than 1 child per family:
take a typical working, married couple, who is contributing taxes-- with four elderly parents & ½ a child. They will soon themselves join their parents in retirement, the ½ child will be left alone contributing taxes( & hopefully along the way he/she will not undergo a catastrophic disablement or early death)...next door to them lives an illegal couple working off the books-- their children drawing free medical care / schooling(as it should be, no question). Two people now / one in a few years-- contributing taxes towards the care of many more persons.
Who's left to pay the piper?
Political leanings are irrelevant here: i take pride in paying my own way, not utilizing free education, welfare, medical, etc.... BUT the reality is something else.
If WE don't wish to have kids, then we BETTER let in those willing to-- for our own future well-being & the continuing prosperity of our great country.
Two other points to consider: the illegal, underground economy: partly the fault of our excessively high taxes that stifle business growth & entrepreneurship, partly due to our aging demographics, partly due to some of our greedy fellow Americans.... AND:
consider that most dirt-poor non-legal immigrants pay between $5 to $40K to
enter our great country. In these times of budget deficits & non-booming economy, we would do both ourselves & them a favor by taking a portion of that sum to let them in.
Those funds are sufficient to cover international background checks, digital documents, credit checks, periodic monitoring, rectal exams, you name it... there's room in there to even charge more for things like driver licenses, Social Security cards... things EVERYONE living here should have, because they BOOST our economy: let everyone get into the credit game-- instead of having to stash funds under the mattress....this will benefit our banking, real estate & automotive-- as well as most other retail segments, etc.
And the taxes paid by present illegal workers, in addition to these special immigration fees, will be a boon to government at all local & national levels.
And all this would not affect our national security one iota, as most folks would voluntarily waive certain due process & civil liberties considerations--& submit to closer screening, monitoring, appropriate fees, etc. IN Exchange for a speedier, facilitated entry & work permit process. Those who chose not to, of course, would be free to follow regular channels.
Once any alien( or national) can enter any Department of Labor office to freely confirm their payroll tax contributions & ensure all their workplace rights are being extended to them-- without fear of retribution-- it will make it much harder for duplicitous employers to maintain their dual/false sets of books, justify their(industry-specific) high payroll to income ratio...hopefully putting a huge dent in the widespread underground economy.
We need to remove some of the nonsense & hypocrisy embedded in our present way of life, and interject some common sense, which also includes human kindness among other things, into the process-- which, more importantly, will also benefit our bottom line enormously.
God Bless America.
Somebody's gonna have to fund our non-sensical system as it's presently structured: all future education, welfare, child healthcare, social security, medicare, medicaid, hospice care, etc.
The avg person contributes 40 years worth of taxes, retires, then draws another 40 years on those lower-priced dollars, when the cost of living was much cheaper. This person supposedly will now survive on those meager contributions-- & worse even, will supposedly need all types of expensive, high-tech drugs in order to be kept semi-vegetatively alive for as long as possible.
This means that it takes the taxes of multiple persons, to maintain each retired person.
In NY State, from where i'm presently writing this missive-- the average household size is 2.59-- less than 1 child per family:
take a typical working, married couple, who is contributing taxes-- with four elderly parents & ½ a child. They will soon themselves join their parents in retirement, the ½ child will be left alone contributing taxes( & hopefully along the way he/she will not undergo a catastrophic disablement or early death)...next door to them lives an illegal couple working off the books-- their children drawing free medical care / schooling(as it should be, no question). Two people now / one in a few years-- contributing taxes towards the care of many more persons.
Who's left to pay the piper?
Political leanings are irrelevant here: i take pride in paying my own way, not utilizing free education, welfare, medical, etc.... BUT the reality is something else.
If WE don't wish to have kids, then we BETTER let in those willing to-- for our own future well-being & the continuing prosperity of our great country.
Two other points to consider: the illegal, underground economy: partly the fault of our excessively high taxes that stifle business growth & entrepreneurship, partly due to our aging demographics, partly due to some of our greedy fellow Americans.... AND:
consider that most dirt-poor non-legal immigrants pay between $5 to $40K to
enter our great country. In these times of budget deficits & non-booming economy, we would do both ourselves & them a favor by taking a portion of that sum to let them in.
Those funds are sufficient to cover international background checks, digital documents, credit checks, periodic monitoring, rectal exams, you name it... there's room in there to even charge more for things like driver licenses, Social Security cards... things EVERYONE living here should have, because they BOOST our economy: let everyone get into the credit game-- instead of having to stash funds under the mattress....this will benefit our banking, real estate & automotive-- as well as most other retail segments, etc.
And the taxes paid by present illegal workers, in addition to these special immigration fees, will be a boon to government at all local & national levels.
And all this would not affect our national security one iota, as most folks would voluntarily waive certain due process & civil liberties considerations--& submit to closer screening, monitoring, appropriate fees, etc. IN Exchange for a speedier, facilitated entry & work permit process. Those who chose not to, of course, would be free to follow regular channels.
Once any alien( or national) can enter any Department of Labor office to freely confirm their payroll tax contributions & ensure all their workplace rights are being extended to them-- without fear of retribution-- it will make it much harder for duplicitous employers to maintain their dual/false sets of books, justify their(industry-specific) high payroll to income ratio...hopefully putting a huge dent in the widespread underground economy.
We need to remove some of the nonsense & hypocrisy embedded in our present way of life, and interject some common sense, which also includes human kindness among other things, into the process-- which, more importantly, will also benefit our bottom line enormously.
God Bless America.
Game,
Are you afraid someone will beat you out of your $7/hour job???
What a joke, you people all believe this? Bush lies about this over and over. He has promised Vicente Fox this for years and always comes up with an excuse to just let it die on the vines. The ideas that make sense never get discussed in open political forums because it is always comes down to two arguments: "I was here first" or "I just want to feed my family". Is politics ever that easy to solve?
And for every fool that comes up with the argument "they should wait for their turn in line" you all ought to go out and see what the line is like. If you are a foreigner with no family in this country and come from just about any non "first" world country, the line isn't even there because you can't just ask without a family reason or some sort of persecution. You have no chance of getting in just saying you want to come in and work. So telling someone to go wait in a line that doesn't exist just makes you look dumb.
If we were really interested in making immigration something that made sense and provided greater benefits, we would get rid of all this bringing families together crap. But that would offend all the religious people on the right.
Bottom line, we will have this messed up system for generations to come, that I am sure of. People can make all the wild claims they want about cost to the country, but in the end they don't add up. The vast majority of immigrants generate more money for the government than they require in costs. You never hear that because every government just uses the situation to try to clamor for more money for themselves. The ones making the big bucks from it, the federal government, loves the status quo and if they had to actually set up a system that would make the math clear, they would lose billions in repaying funds they didn't deserve to earn and returning it to the states to make them whole on their losses.
Are you afraid someone will beat you out of your $7/hour job???
What a joke, you people all believe this? Bush lies about this over and over. He has promised Vicente Fox this for years and always comes up with an excuse to just let it die on the vines. The ideas that make sense never get discussed in open political forums because it is always comes down to two arguments: "I was here first" or "I just want to feed my family". Is politics ever that easy to solve?
And for every fool that comes up with the argument "they should wait for their turn in line" you all ought to go out and see what the line is like. If you are a foreigner with no family in this country and come from just about any non "first" world country, the line isn't even there because you can't just ask without a family reason or some sort of persecution. You have no chance of getting in just saying you want to come in and work. So telling someone to go wait in a line that doesn't exist just makes you look dumb.
If we were really interested in making immigration something that made sense and provided greater benefits, we would get rid of all this bringing families together crap. But that would offend all the religious people on the right.
Bottom line, we will have this messed up system for generations to come, that I am sure of. People can make all the wild claims they want about cost to the country, but in the end they don't add up. The vast majority of immigrants generate more money for the government than they require in costs. You never hear that because every government just uses the situation to try to clamor for more money for themselves. The ones making the big bucks from it, the federal government, loves the status quo and if they had to actually set up a system that would make the math clear, they would lose billions in repaying funds they didn't deserve to earn and returning it to the states to make them whole on their losses.
Brilliant post Bill, but never let facts stand in the way of a corrupt theocratic agenda --
Gameface was here first.
God didn't tell Truthteller explicitly that aliens ought to be welcomed.
And Blight is preoccupied trying to revive the "right" to own slaves.
Great points, but this is more futile than trying to teach the South some tolerance.
Gameface was here first.
God didn't tell Truthteller explicitly that aliens ought to be welcomed.
And Blight is preoccupied trying to revive the "right" to own slaves.
Great points, but this is more futile than trying to teach the South some tolerance.
I'm shocked the 2 of you agree with President Bush...
I begin to wonder if the 2 of you are brain dead. What don't you understand about the word "illegal" as in illegal immigration? Were you 2 clowns aware that the Federal pin is over run with illegal mexicans that are jailed for violent crimes? Some say 1/2 the population, get a clue. Are you for dissolving our borders completely and having everyone as they please access our schools, hospitals and rape the nation for welfare and cheese. I hate to let the you 2 in on a little secret we can't pay for what we have going now as far as freebies. I would also hate to let you know that 1/2 of the world would like to live in America, where do you draw the line? How stupid of an arguement to say since I wasn't here first I can't be for borders, language and culture, you're an idiot lander, plain and simple. WB speaking of $7/hour jobs you my friend are the one working on a website for pennies an hour, not me.
The simple question is; are the 2 of you for dissolving our borders?
I begin to wonder if the 2 of you are brain dead. What don't you understand about the word "illegal" as in illegal immigration? Were you 2 clowns aware that the Federal pin is over run with illegal mexicans that are jailed for violent crimes? Some say 1/2 the population, get a clue. Are you for dissolving our borders completely and having everyone as they please access our schools, hospitals and rape the nation for welfare and cheese. I hate to let the you 2 in on a little secret we can't pay for what we have going now as far as freebies. I would also hate to let you know that 1/2 of the world would like to live in America, where do you draw the line? How stupid of an arguement to say since I wasn't here first I can't be for borders, language and culture, you're an idiot lander, plain and simple. WB speaking of $7/hour jobs you my friend are the one working on a website for pennies an hour, not me.
The simple question is; are the 2 of you for dissolving our borders?
First off, where do you get that 1/2 the prison population is illegal Mexican??? I would just love to see your source on that obvious fib.
If we are going to have free-trade agreements I think dissolving our borders to those two countries does make economic sense. I accept that politically it will never fly, but economically it does. Look at it this way, how many Mexicans are threatening any of us with true middle class jobs? How many Americans get laid off because a Mexican came in and applied for a job and won it? These things just happen so rarely. The Mexicans are working in jobs none of us want. If we wanted to be "nationalist" as you call yourself, then we ought to give up our work now and go take jobs from Mexicans in the US. Lets sharpen up our gardening and cooking skills and go to war. What do you say Game? Because that is where the jobs are being "lost" and what is drawing them in. They aren't coming to be our accountants. I haven't met too many firefighters or teachers that were illegal immigrants.
If they really wanted to end the problem here, they would just institute far stricter employer controls with bigger fines. Make employers wait 48 hours while the SS# given to them is checked out and approved. That simple step alone would cut out tons of fraud and eliminate up to half the illegal work right there. You know why your government doesn't do that Game? Because they would lose hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes that are paid and eventually forfeited. Approximately half the jobs illegals get are done with fake documents, the other are done with the employer explicitly knowing the person isn't legal. In both cases, some tax revenues are generated, money that eventually helps us stay solvent. No one ever says this, but that really is the "quietly" honest truth. The Federal government makes a lot of money on illegals. Some of the states are losing money on them, but in most cases it is nowhere near what they claim. Unless they believe that the economic benefit illegals do create in things such as sales tax would exist if they didn't live there. If they just created funding for some of the social costs and had the feds pay it with the extra money they make, everyone would have extra money and these arguments would just be proven wrong. Besides, Game, in some years down the road when Social Security is still solvent thanks to the contributions of immigration, will you still be whining about this?
If we are going to have free-trade agreements I think dissolving our borders to those two countries does make economic sense. I accept that politically it will never fly, but economically it does. Look at it this way, how many Mexicans are threatening any of us with true middle class jobs? How many Americans get laid off because a Mexican came in and applied for a job and won it? These things just happen so rarely. The Mexicans are working in jobs none of us want. If we wanted to be "nationalist" as you call yourself, then we ought to give up our work now and go take jobs from Mexicans in the US. Lets sharpen up our gardening and cooking skills and go to war. What do you say Game? Because that is where the jobs are being "lost" and what is drawing them in. They aren't coming to be our accountants. I haven't met too many firefighters or teachers that were illegal immigrants.
If they really wanted to end the problem here, they would just institute far stricter employer controls with bigger fines. Make employers wait 48 hours while the SS# given to them is checked out and approved. That simple step alone would cut out tons of fraud and eliminate up to half the illegal work right there. You know why your government doesn't do that Game? Because they would lose hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes that are paid and eventually forfeited. Approximately half the jobs illegals get are done with fake documents, the other are done with the employer explicitly knowing the person isn't legal. In both cases, some tax revenues are generated, money that eventually helps us stay solvent. No one ever says this, but that really is the "quietly" honest truth. The Federal government makes a lot of money on illegals. Some of the states are losing money on them, but in most cases it is nowhere near what they claim. Unless they believe that the economic benefit illegals do create in things such as sales tax would exist if they didn't live there. If they just created funding for some of the social costs and had the feds pay it with the extra money they make, everyone would have extra money and these arguments would just be proven wrong. Besides, Game, in some years down the road when Social Security is still solvent thanks to the contributions of immigration, will you still be whining about this?
Game's biggest problem is that he thinks Mexicans are coming into the US and sucking the system dry: free healthcare, free education, free gov't money all the while giving little or nothing back. It's a ridiculous notion and one that makes me wonder where he lives and how many immigrants live there, as well. I'm guessing his neighbourhood is disproportionately borne Americans.
WB,
I said some say 1/2 the Federal pin is populated by illegal mexicans, that's what I'm told by a guy that works for the Federal prison system. The guys hispanic and has worked for the Federal prison system for 10 years, I have no reason to believe he's lying to me. He says it's kept low key because of both parties politcal correctness in hopes of pandering for their vote. At this point I haven't been able to verify the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Have you noticed every time the people vote on this they vote against welfare and services for illegals and filthy left wing judges over-rule the people. Even in radical liberal California they voted against illegals on the Gov dole. The people are against this no matter what you want to say.
I see you are for dissolving the borders, brilliant idea. Welcome to cesspool 3rd world of Mexira. You know I was starting to believe this was a lost cause and I just about threw in the towel, now you and lander have re-energized me to fight this.
I said some say 1/2 the Federal pin is populated by illegal mexicans, that's what I'm told by a guy that works for the Federal prison system. The guys hispanic and has worked for the Federal prison system for 10 years, I have no reason to believe he's lying to me. He says it's kept low key because of both parties politcal correctness in hopes of pandering for their vote. At this point I haven't been able to verify the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Have you noticed every time the people vote on this they vote against welfare and services for illegals and filthy left wing judges over-rule the people. Even in radical liberal California they voted against illegals on the Gov dole. The people are against this no matter what you want to say.
I see you are for dissolving the borders, brilliant idea. Welcome to cesspool 3rd world of Mexira. You know I was starting to believe this was a lost cause and I just about threw in the towel, now you and lander have re-energized me to fight this.
Apparently the voters in Arizona thought they were sucking the system dry.Every referendum Q. was in favor of cutting the freebies to illeagals.
I'm for tax payer money using Mexican labor to build a trans continental railroad from Tijuana to Toronto.Lets see how long it takes for the enlightned canadians to start bitching when they go to the doctor and they have to wait in line behind Paco and Maria and their brood of ten.
You forgot to mention crime rate by the way.
Pat: How could illegal immigrants receive education, health care, etc? They would be caught, would they not? To my knowledge, illegal immigrants cannot get anything here (unless they're sneaking it, which is a different issue) though new immigrants certainly can. And you forget, dearest, that Canada is the most ethnically diverse country on the planet, with the highest proportion of immigrants. Fully 42% of Toronto was born in another country. I feel that I'm in a reasonably decent position to express the merits of immigration.
GAMEFACE said:
It takes at least a year to process an immigration application. It takes just as long in the US, btw. And nobody says borders need to be dissolved, I just don't understand the panic associated with a slight increase in your immigration numbers, especially since it appears to be based on misconceived notions of what these particular immigrants will do to your country. From what I've heard, it seems as though your Mexican population is the hardest working group you've got.
(Oh, and since you called me a hypocrite, I am in favour of allowing an increased number of Americans across the border this time around. I would personally have little problem dissolving the US/Canada border so far as human traffic is concerned, though I would insist on searching you hillbillies for guns before you cross.)
I would like for all you lefties to go tell David March's family about your open border policy. March was shot in the head execution-style during a routine traffic stop by Armando Garcia, an illegal Mexican in L.A. What is worse is the Mexican government refuses to extradite him back to the US.
You people ever think of the Balkanizing of the US when you have thousands of illegals especially coming from Mexico each year?
You people ever think of the Balkanizing of the US when you have thousands of illegals especially coming from Mexico each year?
truthteller said:
Not that I'm endorsing his actions, but you've chosen the wrong example here, I think. Did Garcia shoot March because he was afraid of being arrested as an illegal immigrant, something that would not have been an issue under this new proposed legislation? Or are you suggesting that Mexico produces more murderers?
California still has the death penalty, doesn't it? It could be that. Canada refused to give you back a known Californian murderer (forget his name now) back in the early 90s for the same reason.
Well, lookie here. The so-called 'Christian' engaged in a class war. Whatever happened to 'blessed are the meek' and all that? Seems to me Jesus was in the habit of offering empathy and assistance to the poor, not shutting them out to protect his own private property, which you might remember was given by god in the first place. Isn't greed one of the cardinal sins?
* (thats better!)
The operative word in the whole issue is illegal...Why should anyone be rewarded for breaking the law? Again there is a process.I don't know if your aware of it or not but the public schools in NYC teaches bilingual education in about 90 different languages. (it also cost about 10 bucks for a hamburger).I won't argue with you about which country is the most diverse because I don't have any numbers,but the US is not just made up of Billy Joe Cracker's.
As far reciveng benefits Arizona hospitals are going broke because they can't refuse knocked up senoritas from reciving care at hospitals...Cal. wants to give illeagals drivers licenses...of course they can't read the signs..but thats OK in LaLa land so long as it feels good.
Patriot said:
Two things: for someone calling himself Christian, spewing his Christian rhetoric on a near-constant basis, I expect a little more than 'get your hands off my grub!' He is, to me, what epitomises the Religious Right: self-righteous. It's terribly unbecoming for someone supposedly of the 'peaceful' faith. He must be of the fire and brimstone variety.
Secondly, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement that the gov't isn't supposed to be in charge of charity, but keep in mind that preventing immigration is itself a government mandate. Were it not for gov'ts you and I and Mrs. Sanchez could well consider ourselves of one continent, not three separate countries.
