Bush calls out people for "lacking courage" and "frightening" the public

[cincy_]

And the punchline is that not even the "penalty" will be enforced at the end of the day. If laws aren't being enforced now, why are we supposed to feel reassurred that they will be in the future? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!! (again)

Once you can't do anything about it ... you're supposed to give up.

Getting illegals isn't "hard" ... they can stay as a felon, but as soon as they get a speeding ticket or pulled over for a broken taillight ... you're OUT.

Can that be done? Of course, it can ... so don't tell me it's not feasible.

 

[Anti-liberal]

Once you can't do anything about it ... you're supposed to give up.

Getting illegals isn't "hard" ... they can stay as a felon, but as soon as they get a speeding ticket or pulled over for a broken taillight ... you're OUT.

Can that be done? Of course, it can ... so don't tell me it's not feasible.

How hard can it be locating these illegals? Your average lawn maintenance company seems to have no problem finding them. And that's what I've been saying...you catch these clowns when they break the law and get them out of here. Word will spread across the border that we're getting serious and maybe then they'll start to pressure their own politicians to straighten out there employment problems in Mexico instead of exporting their unemployed to the U.S. Screw this...I've had it. This isn't right.

 

[barman]

The simple math makes most any suggestion of "round em up and deport them" or "deport them when they get busted on traffic stops/arrests" rather absurd.

When 12 million people are doing anything quietly and without fanfare, there is literally no way law enforcement in the USA can stop them.

I know! We'll ramp up efforts and deport 5,000 illegal Mexicans a day!

At the end of one year, you will have deported about 2 million and meanwhile another couple million will have entered somewhere.

=====
It's rather simple to legally enter the U.S.

100 guys enter legally and obtain legal U.S. drivers licenses.

For a small price, a middleman takes all their physical DLs and mails them to Mexico.

They then go and report their DLs as lost and get a replacement.

MEANWHILE, the DLs are then sold to Mexicans who match the general description of the original person on the DL.

They carry those DLs with them when crossing into the US. In the unlikely (statistically) chance they are asked for ID, they show their newly acquired DLs.

The USDI has no way to prove they are not that person.

So they are then passed into the U.S. and they locate themselves in the same community as shown on the false DL.

Essentially you then have two "Jose Sanchez" in the same locale. Both are working "legally", since their respective employers don't have any way to know they are in reality two people.

Cops might stop them for a traffic offense, but the only one at risk then is the "second Jose". Even then, he can likely kayfabe his way through any misdemeanor charges that might result from "carrying a DL that has been replaced".

Frustrated American citizens often get confused and want to blame "lack of enforcement" as the reason so many people can get over.

In fact, there's plenty of enforcement, but the sheer bulk of 12+ million people violating the cited laws makes effective enforcement an impossibility.

This is not a "conservative" or "liberal" argument. It is a simple mathematical reality.

One can choose to ignore it and remain frustrated and pissed off.

Or one can acknowledge it and work to assimilate it with reality.

Bush and supporters of current immigration discussion may be worthy of criticism for any number of political gaffes, but this is not one of them.

 

[cincy_]

The simple math makes most any suggestion of "round em up and deport them" or "deport them when they get busted on traffic stops/arrests" rather absurd.

When 12 million people are doing anything quietly and without fanfare, there is literally no way law enforcement in the USA can stop them.

I know! We'll ramp up efforts and deport 5,000 illegal Mexicans a day!

At the end of one year, you will have deported about 2 million and meanwhile another couple million will have entered somewhere.

=====
It's rather simple to legally enter the U.S.

100 guys enter legally and obtain legal U.S. drivers licenses.

For a small price, a middleman takes all their physical DLs and mails them to Mexico.

They then go and report their DLs as lost and get a replacement.

MEANWHILE, the DLs are then sold to Mexicans who match the general description of the original person on the DL.

They carry those DLs with them when crossing into the US. In the unlikely (statistically) chance they are asked for ID, they show their newly acquired DLs.

The USDI has no way to prove they are not that person.

So they are then passed into the U.S. and they locate themselves in the same community as shown on the false DL.

Essentially you then have two "Jose Sanchez" in the same locale. Both are working "legally", since their respective employers don't have any way to know they are in reality two people.

Cops might stop them for a traffic offense, but the only one at risk then is the "second Jose". Even then, he can likely kayfabe his way through any misdemeanor charges that might result from "carrying a DL that has been replaced".

Frustrated American citizens often get confused and want to blame "lack of enforcement" as the reason so many people can get over.

In fact, there's plenty of enforcement, but the sheer bulk of 12+ million people violating the cited laws makes effective enforcement an impossibility.

This is not a "conservative" or "liberal" argument. It is a simple mathematical reality.

One can choose to ignore it and remain frustrated and pissed off.

Or one can acknowledge it and work to assimilate it with reality.

Bush and supporters of current immigration discussion may be worthy of criticism for any number of political gaffes, but this is not one of them.

Good post, Barman ... thanks for informative post.

That being said, this thread started with the use of the word COURAGE.

Our President is entrusted with enforcing the law ... not making it.

Our President doesn't have the COURAGE to enforce the law he;'s supposed to enforce.

Our President then says legislators should have the COURAGE to change the law.

PS: I stared this thread because I am sick of Bushie talking about COURAGE and STRONG ... the little weasel didn't have the balls to go to Vietnam yet he lectures people on COURAGE.

 

[barman]

CINCY, there's no argument that at this point in his Presidency, GW Bush is pretty much the least inspiring advocate for any cause, however righteous.

 

[Anti-liberal]

The simple math makes most any suggestion of "round em up and deport them" or "deport them when they get busted on traffic stops/arrests" rather absurd.

When 12 million people are doing anything quietly and without fanfare, there is literally no way law enforcement in the USA can stop them.

At the end of one year, you will have deported about 2 million and meanwhile another couple million will have entered somewhere.

Frustrated American citizens often get confused and want to blame "lack of enforcement" as the reason so many people can get over.

In fact, there's plenty of enforcement, but the sheer bulk of 12+ million people violating the cited laws makes effective enforcement an impossibility.

Then go after employers who give them jobs and landlords who rent to them. If they can't get jobs and have trouble finding a place to live, there will be far less of them pouring across the border, and less of them to deal with. Why does "you can't deport them all" have to lead directly to "give them citizenship as quickly as possible"? Where is it written that if it can't be 100% stopped, then...fuck it...give up and let them all in? And what will giving 12 million illegals citizenship, and another 30 million that they bring in eventually, lead to? I don't see how we need to do anything except cut off the incentives for these folks to come here in the first place. There are many other ways to curb and reduce illegal immigrants in the U.S. other than waiting for one of them to run a stop sign.

 

[Anti-liberal]

Barman...If you were King of the United States,you and your Pavlovian response to crime would wipe out all illegal activity as soon as you were crowned. Simply legalize all activity that was previously criminal and there will be no crime problem...just a lot of questionable behavior.

 

[barman]

ALIB, if I were King 4 A Day, all consensual adult activities which did not harm an unwilling participant would no longer be crimes.

I - like most all Americans - am down with those laws which criminalize actions which directly harm another person.

Here's an accompanying litmus test for those unclear about my lead sentence above.

If the laws aimed at prohibiting the behavior result in a net increase in death, disease or reduced community health and safety, they are foolish laws.

Prohibition (for example) increases death, disease, violence and anciliary crime in the community. So it is therefore a losing policy.

Laws criminalizing murder and rape (for an alternative example) clearly lead to an easily visible and measureable reduction in death, disease and ancillary violence in the community. So they are therefore a winning idea.

 

[barman]

ALIB, I respect your level of frustration. I might make light of some of your statements, but I don't make light of your underlying annoyance regarding our current immigration policies.

-------
ALIB: Then go after employers who give them jobs and landlords who rent to them.

SH: Sounds good. But we're talking literally hundreds of thousands of employers. Of all your suggestions, this is the most possible to acomplish if we were to massively, massively invest more federal and state resources into it.

But how do we do that when current federal and most state budgets are in severe deficit? Complaints about "my taxes going up" would likely be even higher than they currently are because both the feds and states would require more tax revenue to support the massively increased enforcement.

Plus, those same hundreds of thousands of employers have some pretty decent voting muscle themselves. It's reasonable to say that they are very supportive of the current level of immigration law enforcement.

It's also reasonable to believe that there are hundreds of thousands of other businesses across the U.S. who quietly enjoy the benefits of the increased consumer base even if a percentage are illegal immigrants.

==========

ALIB: Why does "you can't deport them all" have to lead directly to "give them citizenship as quickly as possible"?

SH: It doesn't. Which is why current proposals and most other ideas currently under discussion call for increasing ease to citizenship. They do not call for ILLEGAL on Monday, CITIZEN on Tuesday.

======
ALIB: Where is it written that if it can't be 100% stopped,

SH: Economics 101 textbooks.

Or if you prefer, read the mainstream media newspapers covering the past 40 years. That should provide some persuasive evidence.

======
ALIB: .give up and let them all in?

SH: Pretty much, yeah. Over an extended period, but yeah.

Thus my personal belief (expressed in other Threads from time to time) that in my lifetime, we'll see either an essential annexation of Mexico by the USA or an actual annexation.

======
And what will giving 12 million illegals citizenship, and another 30 million that they bring in eventually, lead to?

SH: 12-30+ million additional taxpayers, consumers and fellow Americans as the history of our great country continues to stride forward through time.

----
ALIB: There are many other ways to curb and reduce illegal immigrants in the U.S. other than waiting for one of them to run a stop sign.

SH: And those ways are being aggressively employed right at this very moment and 24/7 across the USA, especially in the southern half. But it's just not enough given the support from both Mexicans and tens of millions of Americans who enjoy the presence of said illegal immigrants within the USA.<!-- / message -->

 

[Anti-liberal]

And what will giving 12 million illegals citizenship, and another 30 million that they bring in eventually, lead to?

SH: 12-30+ million additional taxpayers, consumers and fellow Americans as the history of our great country continues to stride forward through time.

----
ALIB: There are many other ways to curb and reduce illegal immigrants in the U.S. other than waiting for one of them to run a stop sign.

SH: And those ways are being aggressively employed right at this very moment and 24/7 across the USA, especially in the southern half. But it's just not enough given the support from both Mexicans and tens of millions of Americans who enjoy the presence of said illegal immigrants within the USA.<!-- / message -->

You must have had the D-Rays tonight to come on here and try to baffle us with bullshit like this.

The 12 to 40 million new taxpayers would be great if that's what would happen, but the reality of the demographics of these people are that they will have a negative tax impact as they will eat up far more in government services than they will pay in taxes, much as they do now. And there is every indication that assimilation will be a problem, much as it is already (press "one" for English).

As far as "tens of millions" enjoying the presence of said illegal immigrants...that's probably about right because there are hundreds of millions who are NOT enjoying their presence.

 

[barman]

To be fair, most (a majority) of Americans don't have a stern fuss with the current immigration enforcement.

There's tens of millions who benefit from and endorse the current system.

There's likely tens of millions more who promote reform.

Likely tilts one way or the other with a bit of variance as demonstrated by the lack of notable changes in past few years.

My personal request from feds and states is that they collectively work to improve assimilation because I think it's unassailable.

Suggestions that we just "run em all back" and then "Seal the borders airtight" can't be taken seriously by me.

 

[JoeContrarian]

barman, your 'solution' to illegal immigration -- SURRENDER -- is just as laughable and morally repugnant as your useless leftist "harm reduction" strategy for stopping illicit drug use.

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[Dodgingpotholes]

Like you have any morals.

 

[bigplay]

You guys are arguing for nothing.

"The NEW WORLD ORDER cannot happen without U.S. participation, as we are the most significant single component. Yes, there will be a New World Order, and it will force the U.S. to change it's perceptions."

...Henry Kissinger, World Affairs Council ....Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel, April 19,1994.


"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent."

....James Paul Warburg ..before the U.S. Senate Feb. 7, 1950.

 

[barman]

MARK, as long as our immigration policies continue to keep you from becoming a U.S. citizen, I'm pretty much cool with how it all works.