Bush as a ZZ top fan.

[MrTanaka]

Okay I'm back and couldn't help myself. I have to respond to something else.

You said:
"
a. many social democratic countries in the world doing just fine and having actually a much higher living standard (not in terms of monetary flow only but also in terms of quality of life) such as sweden, france, holland etc. etc. "

Sometings you are leaving out are the things that make such a quality of life possible. Specifically I'm talking about scientific, technological, medical advances. And from what sort of system do most of these advances come from?
Do these societies contribute anything to humanity or just consume?
It's kind of funny that we're having this debate on the internet - a technology made possible by the U.S. military. You seem to enjoy basking in the glow of all that our horrible capitalist society has provided for you.
Not trying to get into a pissing contest about who invented what. I'm not even necessarily talking about the U.S. (Japan has also given you many things.)
What I'm saying is that a purely socialist system does not encourage technological advancement. Why should it? There's no incentive. It's certainly not practical.

 

[jaygordo]

Hey Tanaka, I hate to interject in a lively debate, but I just want to tell you I've enjoyed this whole thread. Checked on a whim and I'm impressed that although you knew you were wasting energy you took some time to challenge opinions based on emotion instead of logic. Few would bother-casting "pearls before swine" and all that. Good luck and carry on sir! You are winning the debate! your friend- jaygordo

 

[MrTanaka]

Thanks jayg. We're outnumbered here so we gotta stick together.

 

[JackDee]

""many social democratic countries in the world doing just fine and having actually a much higher living standard (not in terms of monetary flow only but also in terms of quality of life) such as sweden, france, holland etc. etc. ""

"Do these societies contribute anything to humanity or just consume? "

Alright, that's a new one, so actually sweden, france, holland etc. have not contributed anything to society, the 've just been consuming all along...that's an interesting fact i ve not been aware of. Give me a fvcking break. All technological, artist, scientific etc. progress has come out of the u.s., right? Social Democrat Europe is just the Great Consumer.

"a technology made possible by the U.S. military. You seem to enjoy basking in the glow of all that our horrible capitalist society has provided for you."

Dont put words in my mouth i never mentioned, i made a lot of systemic and analytical distinctions in this thread yet for some reason or another you ve repatedly failed to take any notice and you keep coming back with the old anti leftist adages used ad nauseum. If you want to have some first hand knowledge of how horrible capitalism CAN be go to Brazil or Argentina say. And i think i ve anwered that point a couple of posts ago, about socialist collective stuggles that have bailed capitalsim out in the west, about how western capitalsim can be good if you got half the rest of the world working like slaves to provide etc. etc. Also, if you dont want to try Argentina, why dont you take a stroll down a nearby inner city neighboorhood to have a look at another side of the coin. There are so many wide open gaps in your knowledge, i think like i ve said before, because you seem like the decent type, to first start getting some more information to learn and understand more, so you dont go on labelling and diving and being the moutpiece for ideas that are not yours, or have been very slightly filtered by your own thoughts.

Fyi also the u.s. intelligence arpanet might have been the first embrionic internet in terms of structure, but the world wide web, is actually the invention of a Swiss Scientist Tim Berners-Lee from the CERN institute in Switzerland, do a google search on it. So it's actually a joint effort, not to mention the thousands of unnamed programmers around the globe that have made the internet what it is today. But, i got to hand it to the u.s. for a global first with hiroshima and nagasaki.

"What I'm saying is that a purely socialist system does not encourage technological advancement. Why should it? There's no incentive. It's certainly not practical."

Fist you dismiss social democracies as "just consuming and have not contributed anything to society", and then you drag me back to a purely socialist system debate? And again for your information, there's is plenty of incentive, the incentive of the scientist is not that of monetary greed, but that of accomplishment and respect amongst his peers and society in general. Otherwise you get monstrosities like the technological advances with Shell and Mobil bringing the globe to the brink of a multitude of ecological havocs, that of g.m. foods and g.m. companies producing tomatoes with the genes of pigs at the risk of putting in danger very fine tunes ecological systems that have evolved through milions of years etc. etc.

jaygordo: "you took some time to challenge opinions based on emotion instead of logic."

And you too took some time in branding my opionions as merely "emotional", whatever that means, and no time refuting any of them.

 

[jaygordo]

Hey Jack,
I admire your energy. What are you on? You must have found a great supplement to keep your stamina while flogging that dead horse.

All I know is "there's nothing like being there", isn't that what we sports fans say about being in the thrill of the stadium crowd? And I've spent time travelling south america(panama, colombia, ecuador, bolivia, peru) europe, and the communist utopias of ukraine and russia. So I have been there-to the heart of the revolution's paradise. I agree as you rightly pointed out- that few Americans take an interest in the rest of the world. Most sit comfortably enjoying the freest nation on earth and the lifestyle that freedom affords-in respect to global affairs. (They work their asses off for the most part the rest of the time to pay taxes. Taxes that would be doubled by some socialist nations and leave their current lifestyle unrecognizable.) That is clearly a valid criticism of most Americans. I'll never forget the gorgeous vistas of black stinking factory cities across southern russia and ukraine. The poverty I saw was in many ways worse than peruvian indians living off the land at subsistence level. That is my lasting impression of communist enterprise and efficiency. I wish Americans would take a more active interest too-like you. They should all see the glory that became of Stalin's plans and witness first hand the task being undertaken to bring the combined economies of millions of former soviets close to that of Singapore and Taiwan.
All the best to you- make sure that pony never rises again! FLog That Dead Carcass!!

(GL on your picks too) jaygordo

 

[MrTanaka]

So Jack, does this all mean that you're not coming to my 4th of July party? C'mon man, there's going to naive 20 year-old college girls there. Maybe I can gather up some Japanee exchange students for ya'.

"Fyi also the u.s. intelligence arpanet might have been the first embrionic internet in terms of structure, but the world wide web, is actually the invention of a Swiss Scientist Tim Berners-Lee from the CERN institute in Switzerland.........."

This is exactly why I said that I don't wish to get into a pissing match over who invented what. We could go around in circles until we get to the guy who figured out that 1+1=2. He's really responsible for it all.

"Also, if you dont want to try Argentina, why dont you take a stroll down a nearby inner city neighboorhood to have a look at another side of the coin. "

Jack why don't YOU come here and do that. You will see that even the poorest of the poor here have luxuries and comforts in life reserved for royalty in most other places you mention. Even the worst off have running water, electricity, air conditioning, cable TV, internet, plenty of food available etc. etc. Not to mention that no perosn is fixed in their social place no matter what you've read or seen on your local Greek TV. Don't try to give some racism argument either. I'm not even white.

"But, i got to hand it to the u.s. for a global first with hiroshima and nagasaki. "

You don't even want to go down this road with me. But if you do, please start another thread. I'm Japanese and East Asian history happens to be my area of expertise. Also I would recomend that you do a google search on the inhuman atrocities that my home country was responsible for in Manchuria, Korea, SE Asia, and to the Americans. They made the Nazis look like innocent cherubs. I of course have mixed feelings about Hiroshima and Nagasaki but like most Japanese I think that we brought it on ourselves.

"And again for your information, there's is plenty of incentive, the incentive of the scientist is not that of monetary greed, but that of accomplishment and respect amongst his peers and society in general. "

Hey, that sounds terrific but how's it work out in practice? Like I said before, that is the fundamental flaw. I also have a roulette system that works great as long as no 0's come up up.

It all works out on paper and in theory but it fails to account for basic human nature.
It's funny. Of all the psuedo-intellectual "we know what's good for you" folks, none of them seem to think that they're going to be the ones working in the cheese factory. And that's the icredible irony that they fail to see.

Also, all of your examples of failed capitalism are too short. Hell, it took the U.S. at least 100 years to get going. Postwar Japan was probably the greatest success story and even that took 25 years before things turned the corner.

 

[JackDee]

" (They work their asses off for the most part the rest of the time to pay taxes. Taxes that would be doubled by some socialist nations and leave their current lifestyle unrecognizable.)"

alright, this is hopeless you guys, we got differing point of view let's leave it at that, otherwise i ll have to reply that all around the world people work their ass off, esp. 10 year old kids in...fvck it...let's leave it at that, we got differering points of view. I dont expect to be comprehended by most.

 

[JackDee]

"but like most Japanese I think that we brought it on ourselves.
"

i couldn't let this one go, all i got to say, is jesus fvcking christ...

 

[MrTanaka]

Well that's obviously an oversimplified statement I made. But not very far from the truth either.

It's more of a feeling of shame for allowing themselves to descend into the madness that was late 19th-mid 20th century Japan.

You want to discuss this further? Fine by me but please take some time to just learn the basics before you start passing historical judgements. And that doesn't mean looking on Google for some radical left-wing (or right-wing) ranting site. Just learn a few unbiased facts.

[This message was edited by Mr Tanaka on July 02, 2003 at 01:20 AM.]

 

[JackDee]

You want to discuss this further? Fine by me but please take some time to just learn the basics before you start passing historical judgements. And that doesn't mean looking on Google for some radical left-wing (or right-wing) ranting site. Just learn a few unbiased facts.

like what? i ve mentioned a lot of em, what's the single unbiased fact you mentioned.

sorry, dont bother to reply, consider this as a non statement. Been there, done that in terms of politics much more, much, much more than you might even imagine. I wont be tempted no more. so,whatever man. Peace.

 

[MrTanaka]

I meant the hiroshima/nagasaki incidents that you brought and so casually passed judgement on. And since we've proven your igornace of the U.S., I'm only going to assume that your knowledge of East Asia/Japan is equally lacking.

You're the one who brought it up, not me. It's pretty unfair and cowardly to make a statement like that and then run away when challenged. Hey, I'd rather not talk about that here on a fvcking sports betting forum.

You know Jack, I kind of like you in a strange, screwed-up way. I was just at the grocery store buying cigarettes and found myself mumbling to myself "goddamnit JackDee, you stubborn bastard"
So that means that I REALLY need to visit the girlfirend and engage in some immorality because I'm spending WAY too much time on here arguing with people's alter-ego's.

[This message was edited by Mr Tanaka on July 02, 2003 at 02:13 AM.]