Let's say Koubek is playing Gonzalez in a minor ATP first round event with low volume. I like Koubek even though he's just been broken, and place an offer to back him at +200. On the Koubek side of the book no-one is offering to lay at -200 os it is unmatched.
Now it will occasionally happen that simultaneously another customer offers to lay Gonzalez at, say -220. In the past such a bet would also be unmatched on the Gonzalez side of the book.
These bets could be matched though, so Betfair altered their system to match such bets. The question is, what is the fair price to match them at?
I think most punters would say somewhere around 210. So I get Koubek at 210, 1% better than I asked for. The Gonzalez layer gets 210 which is also 1% better than he asked for.
In Customer Gouge number 3, Betfair programmed their system to match me at 200 and the other guy at -220, and pocket the difference - in addition of course to their commission - for themselves.
I think posters here should be aware that at no point in my time with Betfair has the company had such a large proportion of its customer base so disgruntled with it.
Yeah they call them "betfair robots" that take this bets / price .
I am aware of this .
Here is something for you to read:
I copy this text just before he(Andrew Black) removed the whole thing from his blog . I had i feeling he would do that.Also betfair was buisy for the next few days taking out many many posts from their own forum so called trouble makers who would post / try to expose the whole Premium charge .
ENJOY
Bert’s Horseracing Blog
Betfair’s Andrew Black (founder of betfair)on Horse Racing, Betting, Betfair and Random Musings
Andrews Black replies are in green under nick Bert
Its all starts with a post #7.
Enjoy.
Bert’s Horseracing Blog
Betfair’s Andrew Black on Horse Racing, Betting,
Betfair and Random Musings
1.
on 05 Sep 2008 at 5:00 pm1Philip Harfleet
What really lovely photos! Love the sheephorse.
Lilac Moon is a real good-looker. Very athletic looking, especially in the fore-quarters and neckline. She’s a darling.
2.
on 06 Sep 2008 at 3:41 am2The Gambler.
100-1 Baa One.
3.
on 06 Sep 2008 at 9:24 am3Mick
Pretty good TG
4.
on 06 Sep 2008 at 11:12 am4Jon
Bloody rain.
5.
on 07 Sep 2008 at 1:31 am5The Gambler.
Cheers Mick.
.
6.
on 07 Sep 2008 at 3:04 am6Sokyola
Andrew,
Im just wondering why
Betfair do not allow punters in Japan to use the system.
Will this change ever in the future? I find this very frustrating,
Thank You
Sokyola
OK THIS IS WHERE IT STARTS
7.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 6:57 pm7tiller
Hi Bert,
Just wondered if we could have your thoughts on
Betfair’s new premium charges. As a great advocate of
Betfair, i find it immensely dissapointing that they have gone down the route of making their most successful customers pay 20% in commision for every winning week. In fact i would go so far as calling it an abuse of their monopoly of the market
8.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 8:41 pm8fred
I’m going to be a little stronger than that Bert and say that its an absolute disgrace on
Betfair’s behalf. You already make quite enough money off commision rates without needing to bolster the coffers any further and this is pure greed, plain and simple. Its an incredibly crass move which I can only hope will turn as many “high-rollers” and other punters away from
Betfair as soon as possible. You couldn’t make it up, an absolute joke and I shall be closing my account. I look forward to hearing your views.
Yours disgusted.
Fred
9.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:01 pm9Nick
What an idiotic decision by the faceless accountants at
Betfair. I used to think
Betfair was the best thing since sliced bread, now I hold it in the same contempt as the high street bookies. What have people like Mark Davies got against successful punters/traders? I’ll definitely be conducting more business at the rival exchanges.
10.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:02 pm10hazel
I remember when you introduced a
Betfair loyalty scheme, it looks like that in your absence your colleagues at
Betfair have tried to destroy it with the new premium charge. This new charge not only alienates those paying it, but worse for
Betfair is the turn off it will have on anyone aspiring to make betting pay via
Betfair.
11.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:06 pm11roger
Bert - what is going on??? These charges are blatant rape of the regular and loyal
Betfair customer. So vile are the undertakings of our beloved
Betfair that I have contacted Betdaq today with view to finding out their take on these theiving exploits over @
Betfair. Their response was
“Many thanks for your mail.
We are very aware of the recent changes our competitiors have made to their commission structure, with the introduction of premium charges.
We are currently reviewing customers commission rates and looking at ways of bringing their business to BETDAQ, if you have a BETDAQ account please forward your username/account number and our Commercial Director will review your account and be in contact with you in the next 48 hours.
Kind Regards,
Hazel
Customer Service Supervisor
BETDAQ
IFSC House
Custom House Quay
Dublin 1 ”
its just a matter of time Bert!!
astonished, angry and deceived…
rog
12.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:07 pm12andy
Bert sorry to plague your racing blog with befair posts but as this is the only way to possibly contact you i guess it has to be.
Been with
betfair for over 5 years its changed my life allowed me to make a living from betting and do something i love at the same time (watching sport). It is now my lively hood. Todays decision to charge some of
betfairs most loyal customer more just because they are good at it seems to be going against everything you set it up to be (ie you can make money on here and we won’t close your account etc). What is also more annoying than the extra charge is the sheer lack of explanation of the reason behind it. Just a log in message saying we are charging you more no explanation of why?? Just wandering how much you know about the decision its reasons or if you had any input or say over it. Would just like you opinion on it
Thanks sorry to pestor on a horse racing blog but greatly admire you for what you created and was interested in your opinion
13.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:47 pm13screwed punter
How much trouble financially are
betfair in ? Seems to be no end to the greed within the company at the moment but at least it’ll pay for a few more of berts horses for now
14.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 10:00 pm14Chris
Been with BF since the start and always admired and praised the whole set up.
Due to the £1000 allowance on my last 60 weeks I would
miss any extra payment by about £100, so I am a borderline
case.
However this is a step to far and I will be visiting the purple one
more often.
On a more positive note thanks for creating BF and changing
betting for ever its much appreciated.
Good luck in the future with your new venture.
15.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 10:49 pm15Pierre LP
Andrew,
Today’s premium charge finally means that I am forced to leave BF, so at least you have one thing to smile about. My old horse is still enjoying his retirement.
16.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:09 pm16Bert
I’m away from the company at the moment and I have been for a while, but I did know about this change (although I’m not sure about the fine detail). Some comments;
I’m told that this is a change that affects less than 1 in 200 customers - a tiny proportion. A large number of those affected are running aggressive bots that are collectively costing us millions each year in running costs. I guess the majority of the remainder are traders, but to qualify for the charge they must be making a fair amount and rarely lose.
The new charge (again AFAIK) has it that these consistent winners now have to pay a minimum of 20% of their profits. It’s not much though. Betfair has enormous running costs - over 1200 people employed, massive technology costs, big marketing costs and a load of taxes, levy etc. The trader has very few costs - basically access to the internet which he would probably have anyway and that’s it.
I think that 20% is actually a very good deal - there aren’t many walks of life where you can get an 80-20 deal your way where the 20% side carry all the costs as well. It isn’t as good a deal as the one you had yesterday, but it’s still a good deal.
As far as the greed comments are concerned - it is normal business practice to change and optimise charges. The exec at Betfair think they have been undercharging and this is a move to rectify the balance.
17.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:17 pm17andy
thanks for your reply bert this goes a fair way to explaining it for me feel a bit better about it now just don’t see why befair couldn’t have offered this explanation rather than just going ahead and doing it with none. I think also for those of us who rely on it the lack of explanation breeds thoughts (perhaps wrongly) that befair are trying to get rid of profit makers in the same way as bookmakers do.
Thanks for explaining the rational this has eased my worries (even if they were a little paranoid)
18.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:33 pm18roger
disagree bert - what about the people who set out on missions to utlize the wonderful model thats was
Betfair under its charges as were that now find themselves 2 years down the line and possibly back to square one due to the margins being cut to the hilt.
it could be argued i guess that
Betfair do not owe us anything..but in reality they do!. it was the punters whom they enticed under certain conditions and it was the punters who made them. i think this is wholey immoral and unsatisfactory, but i guess that doesnt worry the guys who have made their cash eh!!?
19.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:41 pm19Richie
I’m neither running a bot nor earning masses amounts of money. In fact, I’d describe myself as something of an ordinary punter who enjoys a frequent flutter on my favorite sports events. I have good wins and steep losses. But I still received communication today confirming I would be expected to pay a portion of my profits back to
Betfair by way of a tax.
I’m taking considerable risk in the money I push through
Betfair markets and the rewards are not exactly huge. Certainly not big enough for me to tolerate
Betfair helping themselves to another 15%-16% on top of what I’ve already paid in commission.
I’m sure you do think it represents “a great deal” when
Betfair gets to help itself to upto an extra 15% of the money I’ve earned THROUGH RISK in using your exchange.
I’ll take my pennies elsewhere and let the higher rollers enjoy sharing a big chunk of their profits with you.
Good luck Bert.
20.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:41 pm20Zola
Bert,
Apologies again for the hijack, but I think this new rule is terrible. Yes, companies are out to make money, and so am I. However I like to bet from a position of known information. As it now stands the odds are no longer the odds. The odds I take today can only really be calculated after 60 weeks.
This one decision will not drive me away from
Betfair, but the overall emerging picture of how the company is begining to turn and several recent “improvements” are making me seek alternatives whenever possible. Sad times.
21.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:41 pm21james
Sorry I have to disagree, its an appalling deal, the government only used to take 9% tax and that was in the dark ages of punting. I shall be trying my look elsewhere over the next few weeks and would imagine many others will be doing the same, this could cost many people thousands of pounds a year and there is a simple solution to this, move elsewhere, liquidity increases and there is no 20% takeout or even anything close to this totally obscene charge.
22.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:43 pm22New Betdaq customer
Astonishing decision by
Betfair, especially as it was so much, so quickly. I will be arranging a coffin with other former
Betfair users to parade at the Hammersmith HQ to mourn the death of the betting exchange concept.
Betfair was a great innovation and one that had the chance to shape the future. Now they are no better than a normal bookie, a sad decline.
23.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:43 pm23james
Furthermore I do not run a bot or trade heavily either, I cant afford to be giving away a fifth of my winnings just plain and simple.
24.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:44 pm24Hzl
Shame and disguising.
Thankfully, other exchanges are still available.
25.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:44 pm25Andy F
Hi Bert,
I think today is a black day for
Betfair (sorry about the pun). To target the bot users in this shotgun way is wrong. Surely you can identify the accounts and deal with it on a one to one basis. I thought the data charges were supposed to sort this issue out.
I thank you for giving your comments it is much more than anyone else at the company has done. There has been no annoucement from
Betfair. This news broke on the General Betting forum about 11am today, it is now 11pm and no word from
Betfair. For customers to find out about this in such a way you must agree is very poor customer relations. But to then make no annoucement is even worse.
I take you point about 80/20 but why do I need to accept it. Firstly there is the liquidity issue but that is not something
Betfair control, it is the customers. Secondly there is the software issue, but again that is not something
Betfair control. So what are
Betfair’s USP’s, well their reliability is good even allowing for that bad week of crashes, but this is something which in time can be achieved by other exchanges. I am to be honest struggling to think what
Betfair control to stop customers leaving. The barriers to exit really don’t seem to be there.
I have been with your company for over 6 years but I am not sure I will see out the 7th. I have been in touch with Betdaq, namely Tom Sloanes, about todays developments at
Betfair and unfortunatly I see the
Betfair days are numbered.
Remember it is better to have 2 - 5% of something as opposed to 20% of nothing.
Lastly, sorry for coming on your racing blog I know it is not here for
Betfair issues but as people at
Betfair are not communicating I felt it was the last hope.
Today has seen some serious damge done.
26.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:44 pm26steve
” A large number of those affected are running aggressive bots that are collectively costing us millions each year in running costs.”
I thought you brought in the data and transaction charges to counter that ?
27.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:45 pm27racibg
well think on this bert, a lot of the punters you are going to take the extra from are the same punters who were with you from day1(me included), the same people who populated the markets, the same people who spread the word about your great company,the same people who championed your company in the early days, when you wondered if you would be a success, and helped turn your dream and vision into reality, and made you very rich.
Can you not see your magnificent invention is turning into just another bookies?,
Its a shame
28.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:45 pm28Frog
I posted this on the
Betfair forum. Do you think
Betfair have opened a can of worms with regards to new taxes on punters? 1 in 200 punters might be affected but what incentive do the other 199 in 200 have to be winners…..
Back in 2000
Betfair was launched with motos like ‘winners welcome’. Betting tax on turnover was abolished a year later in the UK. Mark Davies destroyed John Brown from
Hills on Channel 4. Punters had value and no tax to pay. Everything was brilliant for punters and
Betfair was raking it in with their new sliding scale commission structure.
Betfair represented innovation in betting and Andrew Black was regarded as the new messiah by many punters.
In the ensuing years
Betfair was challenged from all sides with regards to their punters paying extra taxes. Some very good and honest people at
Betfair worked very hard to make sure that no extra taxes were put on their clients. They took their case to various government departments, C&E etc. They actually got some of their winning customers to work for them for free on this. It was in our mutual interests that the tax free status was keep. At the core of the argument was if someone won one year they may not win the next. Examples were given and it was ‘proved’ that it was best just to tax the betting companies. THIS ARGUMENT WON THE DAY.
On 8th September 2008
Betfair showed their true colours. When I say ‘Betfair’ I do not really know who we are talking about. I suspect its some techies, accountants and an ex-‘bot’ runner that dreamed up this disaster. Not content with dreaming up the flawed BFSP system and then the
Betfair matching logic fiasco they have come up with this. The staff that worked tirelessly from 2002-2004 to keep BF punters tax free must be frustrated by this stupid decision. They must also be embarrassed that a company they work for has shafted the people they got to work with them for free in everyones’ mutual benefit.
Lets think about the implications of this daft decision. Short-term
Betfair get more revenue. Long term they have given the keys to the Inland Revenue and C&E to tax punters. They have devised a method to ‘tax’ long term winners. They have provided the Treasury and
Betfair’s critics to say winners on here can be taxed. Exactly what we convinced the government could not be done 4 years ago.
As for punters
Betfair have for years had the mystique of the commission structure. No one coming onto
Betfair knew how much they would actually end up paying. Most people probably don’t know exactly what they pay . Now its clear – the most you will get is 80% of the profits you make on here.
Betfair will take the rest. Most people lose on here but how many join on the dream of achieving a high margin system or a no lose trading method. MOST FAIL BUT THEY COME HERE WITH THE DREAM OF WINNING BIG. Now they know they will have to pay 20% tax to
Betfair (and the government may follow now BF have opened the can of worms) will they still come with the same dream we all had several years ago? Or will they consider other investment opportunities where the tax may be lower?
The
Betfair betting revolution is over. Lets hope someone else starts a new revolution and the hope of making it big from betting can be reborn.
29.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:46 pm29The Purple Layer
Now its time to take the coffin down to
betfairs hq
greedy s###s
30.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:48 pm30Richie
Zola:
That’s another issue I have with this change. It’s not transparent how much additional tax you will have to pay. Basically
Betfair gets to run its calculations at the end of the week, and then determines how much of your money they get to rake back into their coffers by way of this new tax.
Ordinary punters have no idea what odds they are working with anymore. You can’t compare
Betfair odds to the rest of the marketplace because they are potientially subject to another 15% tax on top of commission.
Regardless of whether you are likely to be affected by this or not, do you want to take the chance and get stung later? Or do you just play and safe and simple with an exchange or bookmaker with upfront odds and fees.
Tough choice.
31.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:48 pm31Nick
I disagree too Bert, I use Bet Angel Pro through the API, would pay data and transaction charges if I was trading ‘aggressively’ which is only right but I’ve been told that because I’m good at what I do that
Betfair want more of my money on top of the commision that I pay. ‘Winners welcome at
Betfair’ that’s a joke!
Betfair has tried to become a ‘jack of all trades’ games, poker, Taikai etc and the SP product which was one of the craziest ideas ever has to be paid for as cost of implementing it must have been huge and now someone has to pay for it. Sharp minds don’t bet at SP!!
32.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:56 pm32Martin
I’m a normal guy (non bot using) trying to make a living on your wonderful site. However, if I hadn’t had an abysmal March, I would have come into this ridiculous Premium Charges scam. If the idea is to penalise the bots and effectively charge them extra for using the service then why not limit it to those accounts that operate bots. It can’t be difficult to identify them.
When you came up with the original 5% commission charge when you were at the helm did you really expect some of your ‘valuable’ customers to be paying upwards of 20% within 5 years. I expect not which is why this whole thing has to be rethought. I don’t think any of us has a problem with bot users paying far more than the rest of us so do it. Nothing more simple I wouldn’t have thought without catching the innocent in the net.
33.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:57 pm33Hzl
Plus, why didnot advertise that anyone who wants to make money is not welcomed by
betfair.
34.
on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:59 pm34New Betdaq customer
“I think that 20% is actually a very good deal - there aren’t many walks of life where you can get an 80-20 deal your way where the 20% side carry all the costs as well.”
But you are carrying no risk, the people making the money are, that imbalances things again. Also the exchange model is shot to bits now. As for less than 1 in 200, I just can’t see that. It feels like a very liberal intepretation.
Betfair will make many millions from this for no additional effort. They have near on £300m in the bank, that is why people feel it is greedy of them.
35.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:05 am35mike
If these premium charges were introduced to discourage aggressive Bots then why not charge them directly, as you already do via API calls?
Instead you have created a PR disaster.
The inital email re: “premium charges” was in smallprint, which made it look as if
Betfair wanted to hide something!
The link (within the email) to the new terms & conditions was non existent to those who use the firefox browser, which again made it appear
Betfair wanted to hide something!
Once i found the new T&C’s i was confused due to the complexity of it all, which just lead to panic & confusion!
Was this your intention?
I have no problem with your enthusiaim for capitalism. However, the golden rule in successful capitalism is “the customer is always right”, and these new premium do not look “Fair”, and are far from plain & simple to the majority of your customers!
Golden Rule of Capitalism : “The customer is always right”.
36.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:14 am36Nick
How the hell are we to know when taking a price if at the end of the week i will be charged 0% or an extra 20%, this is surely the beginning of the end for bf, i do have opened an a/c with betdaq today, at least i know what % will be taken from each bet.
37.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:16 am37Kay
Bye bye bet(un)fair.
That is your end !!
20 % 4 winners !!
Your silly and u become some asskicks from your paying users
38.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:17 am38Rob
I have been with
Betfair since 2000 ,but am apalled at this greed.Hopefully everyone will move to Betdaq and it can become a viable exchange. I have removed 75% of my funds today as betting with 20% tax is simply not viable.
Greed pure and simple is what we can all see it is, as the accountants try to dress up the profits ahead of a City flotation.
39.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:22 am39Chris
0.5% or 1 in 200 accounts affected ?
Thats including the 10`s of thousand dormant accounts.
40.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:34 am40John
“I think that 20% is actually a very good deal” business ethics indeed ,they should have cut the Knackers off u instead of Marine Boy
41.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:37 am41mike
Bert
You write that: “I think that 20% is actually a very good deal - there aren’t many walks of life where you can get an 80-20 deal your way where the 20% side carry all the costs as well. It isn’t as good a deal as the one you had yesterday, but it’s still a great deal.”
Surely, you are very mistaken in that view. There are numerous electronic markets (stocks, bonds, currencies, commodities, derivatives, spread betting, etc.) available for traders to use today where the commissions payable are less than 0.5%. By comparison, paying up to 20% to trade on a sports market is absolutely extortionate and completely unrealistic.
Betfair is not bearing the trading risk, so on what possible basis can the Company imagine it is justified in taking a 20% slice of any profits generated by the trader?
There are surely other ways of dealing with the problems posed for
Betfair by the “aggressive” bot users than by imposing a punitive structure of commission charges that will crush the smaller trader (the non-bot user), deter those who might join the site in future hoping to make a profit from gambling, and quite possibly drive so many site users into the hands of
Betfair’s competitors that liquidity on the site becomes even more of a problem than is currently the case.
Please take the time to read the comments on the numerous thread on this subject today on the
Betfair forum to get a better sense of the strength of feeling that has been expressed by so many site users and the many issues this poses for the future of
Betfair’s business. Thank you.
42.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:49 am42Andrews Gay Lover
U and Dave Nevison outraged over the use of pacemakers, sad day for racing when the likes of you are trying to set the tone
43.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:49 am43Jonny
hello Bert
I think I am ok Bert as I have lost thousands on
betfair.
Can i carry forward my losses to the next 60 month period.
I am frightened of winning on
betfair now . Think
betfair should explain the changes in simple English because I do not really understand them.
In summary I am looking to do some trading away from
Betfair.
This is such a shame. I have told hundreds of people about
betfair since joining in July 2000.
I have been loyal to
betfair but has
betfair been loyal to its clients.
I prey this will not affect me and will try to make sure i do not find too many winners.
How bizarre is that Bert?
44.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:58 am44fred
for a company “with remarkably high running costs”, its amazing how many freebies for
betfair employees you can afford to put on, maybe you should cut back on them rather than greedily trying to attack the customer. the 1 in 200 argument doesnt wash, its disgraceful behaviour end of and i shall look forward to moving to the purple site. 20% is absolutely outrageous, how can
betfair be so greedy, you do perfectly well without needing to be greedy. shameful behaviour.
fred
45.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:11 am45Bert
Mike - you can’t compare “per trade” costs with an overall profit levy. The vast majority of customers (99.5%) will pay no more with this change. Stamp duty in the UK is only 0.5%, but it effectively kills off trading for most people - when I was trading I was losing 40%+ of all my profit in stamp duty and broker costs. I’d have snapped up a 20% overall profit deal.
I don’t know the fine detail but my understanding is that there is virtually no risk to the customer here. This is a levy for customers who win virtually all of the time, and there aren’t many of those - anyone betting in the normal way is not going to qualify.
As I’ve said though I’m not working at BF right now and I may be misrepresenting this - if you want answers you need to speak to someone there.
46.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:12 am46Capitalist
I’m heading to Betdaq, THAT’s capitalism, plain and simple
47.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:52 am47roger
and what is wrong with winning all the time!!??? why should people with winning strategies be penalised ?? many of them are no doubt big hitters who supply the lifeblood of the exchange - liquidity!!
i’m no big player but i have had profitable 89+% SR horse laying method for the past 36 months….are you saying that i should deliberately chuck in the odd winner (loser) to offset being TOO profitable?!!
ludicrous and pittiful attempt to fleece the customers. there are many other fair steps to gain revenues from the punter..and i dont believe your percentages re the people affected. typical
Betfair PR.
unfortunately from reading your replies tonite i am left with an even more bitter taste in my mouth
48.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:12 am48mike
Bert,
It’s not true that only customers who win “virtually all the time will be effected”.
A full-time customer who wins just 50% of the time will also be affected if their average winnings are just 24% more than their losses.
I really dont think those behind this hair-brained idea have thought it through, as it really does look like a raw deal imo!
Punters/Traders/Gamblers/Customers also need to calculate simply & quickly what their risk/reward is, and this new tax just creates confusion, kills time, energy for for many the fun of it all!!
49.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:47 am49James
If only 0.5% are affected now, What if more people start winning decent amounts? Not going to decrease is it, So therefore it is only likely go increase further. For those who are affected now. It’s either Win and win only 80% of what you should win or lose and lose it all together. Effectively a no win situation and for
Betfair a Win - Win situation.
The fact is while you are taking money from people who won it fairly. You are totally going against what
Betfair was set up to do. Punters place bets against each other. Yet if you win its possible
Betfair will then take 20% of it. For some reason I got a feeling that this wont be advertised on television.
Or if it is that good a deal as you say, Advertise it and clearly state it.
From what I also see from throughout this blog and other stuff its as others have put it, Sheer greed.
Not very good considering
Betfair welcomes winners.
50.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 3:01 am50mike
Burt,
I’ve done some figures in excel, which appear to blow away your myth that “only customers who win virtually all of the time”
will be effected.
Assuming a customer wins just 50% of the time.
934 bets over 60 weeks, ie approx 2 bets a day.
50% win rate with average winnings of £1000
50% loss rate with average loss of £800
ie winnings are approx 20% bigger than losses.
assuming commision = 3%
total gross profit = £93,600
total net profit = £79,560
(total commison + implied commision) / 2 = £25,272 / 2 = £12, 636
commision / total gross profit = £12,636 / £93,600 = 13.5%
Premium Commsion % = 20% - 13.5% = 6.5%
Premium Commison = 6.5% * £93,600 = £6,084
Total Premium Commision = £6,084 - £1,000 = £5,084
Increase in
betfair commision = £5,084 / £12,636 = +40%
51.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 4:20 am51leaving on 22nd Sept
I have been with
Betfair for 6 years but as from 22nd of September i too will be leaving to join Betdaq.
‘20% better odds, 20% commision’ should be your new slogan.
As for only affecting 1 in 200 people, a vast amount of BF accounts will hardly ever be used (ie people just signing up for the £25 fee bet, only to never bet again) so out of the million + members, the total number of ‘REGULAR’
Betfair users will be much, much less a figure.
What % of REGULAR users will be affected? You and i know it will be ALOT more that 0.5%.
The main reason i, and nearly all users use BF and not Betdaq, is liquidity. After Sept 22nd i can see alot less liquidly on BF and much much more on the purple site.
You and your big directors may think you will make a few £million with the increased charges short term, but long term? well that could well be a different matter.
Betdaq had better start getting new staff in ready for September 22nd.
52.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 4:30 am52Going
Bert
I have also been with
Betfair since 2000 and have introduced many others to the benefits of
Betfair.
That will change from 22 Sept and my business will move to Betdaq.
A sad day.
53.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 7:35 am53The Gambler.
Time to end your sabbattical Bert.
You and Mick Stone need to head back to base camp and sort this nonsense.
FFS you worked very hard to set up this company, and this could destroy your children’s inheritance.
Good Luck.
54.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 8:22 am54Jonny
Is the whole idea for
betfair employed traders to take over markets?
Macedonia v Scotland
2.78 traders back. arbers lay. Mug punters back.
traders lay 2.58.
Traders leave
betfair and are replaced by in house funds.
In new scenario
In house traders pushed Macedonia back out so no arb.
as a result no liquidity in market and that is the end
I am in tears Bert
I was going to start trading
Now that dream is over on
betfair.
As an arber I may have to look for a new job
I work 15 hours a day Bert, 7 days a week.
Would you want to give 20% of your win to someone?
55.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 8:24 am55Frog
‘I don’t know the fine detail but my understanding is that there is virtually no risk to the customer here. This is a levy for customers who win virtually all of the time, and there aren’t many of those - anyone betting in the normal way is not going to qualify.’
This isnt true. Anyone who makes a high return through gambling and bets in over 250 markets one 60 week period will have to pay extra. If they lose the following 60 weeks bad luck. As the markets evolve over time this is bound to catch people out. It was one of the arguments
Betfair themselves used when fighting off an extra tax on their customers by the government. People who win one year may lose the next. By demonstrating a method to ‘tax’ winning punters
Betfair have showed the government a way to tax them as well.
56.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 8:25 am56Simple Simon
“I’m away from the company at the moment and I have been for a while”
Like Nero, fiddling while Rome burns. Better get back mate and sort those fuckers out. Although, from what I gather, you are actually one of those fuckers yourself. Build up the balance sheet before you go public. Do what it takes. Who gives a ****, we’ll have made our pile.
But suck on this Berty baby - there are some huge stories about internal fraud and corruption at
Betfair just waiting for the right time to pop up. You know what I’m talking about - staff accessing successful clients accounts for their own ends. Know what I mean ? And if you don’t, you ******* well should.
57.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 8:54 am57Gareth
You helped to create something of true meaning, value and substance. Sadly peoples feeling towards
betfair has now changed and I will be leaving the site unless the situation is resolved. It really is a sad day.
58.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 8:56 am58craig
So Bert, what do you think of Swindon’s start to the season ? Thought you might like a break from the
betfair posts !!
59.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:02 am59Gareth
“I think that 20% is actually a very good deal - there aren’t many walks of life where you can get an 80-20 deal your way where the 20% side carry all the costs as well. It isn’t as good a deal as the one you had yesterday, but it’s still a good deal.”
What disappointing comments. It’s not an 80-20 deal at all. People can and do generally lose on
betfair as you well know, so to add a further “take, take, take” when people do actually win over a period of time is very bad form.
This charge will hit many people using their own ability to win, and not just bots etc. I know this to be true. There are even a few non trader that will be hit. Like I said before, it’s a sad day for punters and it’s saddening that you would side with this injustice.
By all means suspend all bot accounts. It’s not difficult to spot them. The reality of course is that
betfair would rather profit from these accounts than they be shut down. It’s a shame that this rather vague premium cost is going to hit honest punters as well as those using bots.
60.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:08 am60Jonny
But Gareth when the bots leave ,Betfair will have in house bots to replicate what their clients have been doing which is making money if the
betfair traders get it right.
61.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:16 am61Gareth
You’re right Jonny. It’s just a way for them to cut themselves another large slice of the money cake. I’m not happy about it, and it is a lie for people to state that only bots and traders are impacted by this. It is simply not true.
62.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:20 am62Duncan Disordorli
Hi Bert…I started the thread below in General where it was suggested I ensured your viewing it by posting here. I realise that this is not what you want this blog used for, but the postings above reflect the feelings of many including myself.
I will not add (much !) to what is c/ped below, but I just wanted to say that if anything will remove me from
Betfair it is this new charge. I am neither a trader nor bot user, but what I had thought an ideal
Betfair (from their point of view) client. If there are thirty horseraces today I will probably play on 90 % of them…I win, I lose and the comm is paid without a murmur. On the days I break level, I have absolutely no problem with
Betfair gaining maybe a ton. While I still haven`t had time to calculate the implications for me personally…I feel let down. Not because I won`t win as much in future,(as if that is a certain scenario ! ) but because I am being victimised. Just as bookies do when offering me derisory amounts. You surely can`t be content that any winning punter is being treated this way…or can you ?
Mark Davies once stated categorically that there was no place for bots on
Betfair…how we all wish the company had kept to that statement. If they are the cause of any problems, then get rid if that is possible….but don`t penalise the tiny % of that minute 0.5 % that by their hard graft and financial risk do what once was considered all but impossible….making gambling pay. This is what
Betfair stands for…your company Bert stands accused of destroying the very feature that made it the success it has become. It is an incredibly bad decision and if not refined (rather than done away with in its entirety…)then the fallout will be entirely of your board`s doing. The 99.5 % will still be there, but
Betfair will lose many of the 0.5% and if that is the intention as it appears to me to be…then it is a sad day for many.
” Winners not welcome on
Betfair…” …we believers could never have thought it possible.
Regards,
DD…..c/p follows…
Duncan Disordorli 08 Sep 20:52
Not had a real chance to work out the implications of this nor read the threads, but an absolutely astonishing own goal by
Betfair.
Andrew….not sure if you read the forum, but come back from your sabbatical….leave the horseracing empires to Godolphin and O`Brien for a moment….take a deep breath and just reflect…that`s all, reflect on what the techies and money boys are doing to your wonderful company. I flatly refuse to believe that you have made this decision….nor indeed any of the visionaries that were there at the birth of THE greatest innovation ever in the industry.
This is not about a few of us paying
Betfair a few extra quid in commission, this is about the sad spectacle of a company losing its way.
Treating customers who have the `audacity` to win like lepers has been perfected to an art form by almost all major bookmakers these days….but for
Betfair to do the same…?? Say it ain`t so Andrew….say it ain`t so….
If ANYTHING will put your market share under severe threat it is decisions like this one. Nobody wants to leave this site….but I for one am astounded…nay, incredulous that you would have ever thought of penalising winners……the person or persons who made this decision have just destroyed the very essence of exchange betting.
A sad day indeed.
DD
63.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:56 am63Jonny
What should be the greatest concern is that people who are not big players are leaving. The core players. Bert I have spoken to loads of people last night and this morning.
They are not threatening to leave
betfair. They have left.
This is a sad day.
64.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:05 am64Who?
Greedy twats
65.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:07 am65The Way It Is
8 years destroyed in one day, well done to the BF exec’s !!!!!!!
66.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:37 am66harry
A disgraceful reply from Bert, I do not what a bot is, nevermind how to operate one, I am not a trader but would expect to pay about £300 a week in premium charges on current figures but that’s apparently okay. Also no account will be taken of my heavy losses in previous years.
Here’s hoping
Betfair goes bust.
67.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:43 am67pagsy
this will not be the end of
betfair, but what a fantastic opporunity for betdaq, they need to take this by the horns, and get advertising
68.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:51 am68damaven
this is just another way for greedy ’suits’ to get their hands in customers’ pockets…you can rest assured that sooner rather than later there will be another commision hike…players are left with a clear choice, go on with ‘business as usual’ or make your feelings known business-wise by punishing
betfair by no longer giving them any business…personally, i chose the latter option and withdrew my available to bet balance yesterday…if enough people did that than perhaps a message would be sent that ‘we’re not going to take it’, to quote from the movie/play/album ‘tommy’
69.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 10:54 am69Warren
They idea that it only affects 0.5% is laughable, maybe 0.5% of total accounts but not of active ones.
Sad day for
Betfair this, I dont know the details of your sabbatical but you need to get to grips with the bean counters who are destroying what you created.
70.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 11:03 am70Jarrod
To whom it may concern… i posted a handful of messages concerning the new premium fee on the
betfair forum. I didn’t use vulgar language, I didn’t misrepresent the truth, I just gave an honest view. Now I am unable to post to the forum. I tried various browsers and still no lucky. This has never happened before and I am left to conclude that I have been banned for sharing my opinion. Way to go
betfair.
71.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 11:45 am71Anon
“As far as the greed comments are concerned - it is normal business practice to change and optimise charges. The exec at
Betfair think they have been undercharging and this is a move to rectify the balance.”
Oh come on. You’re smarter than that, surely. “Normal business practice” is usually constrained by competition.
And this line about
Betfair being a “business” is a bit naive too. We’re all “businesses” individually on
Betfair, aren’t we? We are all motivated by self interest. The difference is traders operate in a highly competitive environment whereas
Betfair don’t as yet, but probably soon will.
And if you think the only costs of being a successful trader are the costs of an internet conection then you are somewhat behind the times. Getting yourself to the front of the queue requires a lot of time, effort and expense.
Bottom line, the “exec” have made a mistake. They’ve handed a coup to their competitors. I’m already talking to developers to look into building apps for the other exchanges.
72.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 11:56 am72Dan
I don’t see how anyone can defend
Betfair’s position (Bert!) - it’s indefensible. Most of us on
Betfair are not city traders making millions to whom 40% doesn’t affect their lifestyle. The 20% is effectively going to kill off some punter’s livelihoods.
Why
betfair want to drive away the bigger punters and especially the traders (bot or otherwise) is beyond me - they create the liquidity for the whole system. So much for them being the ‘brightest minds in the industry”…
73.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 11:56 am73New Betdaq customer
I’ve had a few quotes in already for some simple trading apps for Betdaq and they [Betdaq] have returned my call quickly for more information. It turns out some free apps will be available soon anyway, so this would appear to be the start of a major shift in the market. I enjoyed
Betfair for eight years but this move shows it is clearly time to move on as
Betfair didn’t even have the courtesty to warn or discuss with me the implications. Given how much I will pay under the new scheme that’s disgusting.
74.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 12:16 pm74lastfiver
To all the recent posters.
Please be a bit more skilful with your written English when posting to Berts blog. As Bert has maintained this Blog is for his racing interest not a forum for
Betfair. It is totally unacceptable to write malicious things about him personally. Please take your anger elsewhere.
I am as surprised as anyone with the letter and introduction of the premium charging. I guess that most of the users who are on here saying they will leave and go to Betdaq totally misunderstand the dynamics and the workings of an Exchange even more so than possibly the
Betfair PR team misunderstood what the reaction would be to the letter.
As someone who doesn’t use an Exchange currently but having done so from the start of Flutter and
Betfair my one overriding view is that the Betting Exchange is a natural market where there are different types of users. By picking on one group will have a serious knock on effect, even if it is thought that it won’t.
Bert, I’m sorry that some people are both rude and extremely thick and hope that any comments don’t stop you from posting.
Good luck
P.S. I’m not sure that I would have introduced a premium charge…sounds to similar to a Bookmakers letter that says “we don’t want your business any more”…something I thought the Exchange was built to circumnavigate. I definitely wouldn’t have sent out the letter and made the changes during a credit crunch where users want to bet more. Gamblers always bet expecting to win if new users think they will have to pay more as they ‘will be successful’ it may make them go elsewhere.
75.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:26 pm75Fred
I posted my dissatisfaction early on the
betfair forum and was silenced also, didn’t post anything overly negative just said I wasn’t happy and they took away my posting rights.
Having said that I will certainly be making my feelings known on many other forums, blogs and will be contacting the media (and encouraging others do so) regarding this injustice and
betfairs utter contempt towards their customers.
I don’t believe they can claim better odds than bookmakers any longer in their advertising, this would be deception and I can imagine many complaints to the likes of the ASA and the OFT.
Even with the odds on their site I don’t think they should be allowed to show 2.00 for an Even money shot after these new rules come into play, it will be blatant deception.
Under their new scheme you could well be getting 4/5 for Even money if you are on a good run and had a few winners.
As I understand it anyone could have made some level of profit over the last 60 weeks.
And then you back four ‘Even money’ winners in a week, then are hammered with a 20% premium charge at the end of the week meaning you actually got 4/5 odds on the selections.
I believe all the nonsense about £1,000 allowance over 60 weeks, 250 markets is nothing but diversion/confusion tactics to get people away from their true intentions.
£1,000 allowance over 60 weeks? Give me a break. That is a £16.66 per week allowance. Clearly a diversion/confusion tactic by
betfair to hide their true intentions.
Another thing is if you make £1,000 profit one week, then lose £1,000 the next week - what happens then?
Do they take 20% from you when you make a £1,000 profit, but they won’t compensate you 20% when you lose £1,000 in a week?
This is clearly unfair as is akin to theft, maybe time for us to start getting the likes of the Office Of Fair Trading (OFT) involved.
What is needed is weight of numbers, it is no us point moaning on the
betfair forum where they will just silence anyone who wants to start action against them and appears to be making any moves against them.
If enough people start complaining to the likes of the OFT, start contacting the media outlets I do think we can do something about this injustice.
They have happily taken hundreds of millions of pounds of us in commissions over the years, taken our money based on advertising and promising us that their odds were “better than the bookmakers” and they reward winners.
As far as I am concerned if they go ahead with this ridiculous 20% charge this is deception and they have been taking our money all this time on false pretences and deceptive advertising.
Time for media involvement and punters to take a stand against this, the authorities need to look into this.
76.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:37 pm76Anon
“I guess that most of the users who are on here saying they will leave and go to Betdaq totally misunderstand the dynamics and the workings of an Exchange”
Care to guess again?
77.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 1:46 pm77Harryboy
At the end of the day Andrew Black did not make this decision, it was the powers that be at
Betfair towers who made it. Bit unfair to lay into him. If you were in his position you would defend the company you set up no matter what.
Dont get me wrong, I am totally against
Betfair’s decision but we need to be venting our anger at them rather than Black. It’s just a shame they have gone silent on the whole issue.
78.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:04 pm78arbaday
Got to pay for the shareholders bubbly somehow
glug glug glug
79.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:13 pm79Fred
We don’t need to go to Betdaq, I believe we need to go the AUTHORITIES!
Us brits are far too soft, in places like the USA if this sort of nonsense takes place by any corporation trying to screw the public - the people fight back and get the authorites, the media involved and get justice.
It is almost criminal what they are planning on doing when you break it down and think about it rationally.
Betfair basically want a 20% stake in our betting activities.
BUT….
If we WIN, then oh yes….”by the way you owe me 20% of your profit I have a stake in your trading” is
betfairs attitude.
If we lose, they suddenly aren’t a 20% partner. We have to absorb the losses for the week. How convenient.
It is disgusting, if anyone created this sort of BS contract/partnership in any business where you are only a stake holder when things are going well it would be thrown out in court!
It is DELIBERATELY on a weekly basis so they can screw the MAXIMUM amount of money out of us.
They know many punters will have some good weeks and they intend to pinch 20% when things are going well, when things aren’t you are on your own.
If they could get away with it they would probably do it on a bet by bet or daily basis, but that would be too obvious what they are up to.
Even if the premium charges were on a monthly, or annual basis it would still be ridiculous.
You could easily lose the next month/year, and when you do they suddenly aren’t a 20% partner.
It is unfair trading - which means we must complain to the Office of Fair Trading (OFT)
I have been contacting the big media outlets today and they are very interested in this story, this needs to get into the public arena they can’t be allowed to get away with this.
The people at the top of these corporations aren’t so smug and bigheaded once the stories start appearing in the media and they start coming under fire!
80.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:15 pm80fred
you see that 5% commision rate is just to hoik them, in, a big fat juicy worm to the fish. once youre caught, thats it
81.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:28 pm81lastfiver
Not really.
Simple concept.
Winners migrate to Betdaq.
Margins for Betdaq layers fall.
Less liquidity.
Less profit.
Nobody wins.
It’s why I say that it’s a natural market.
All that happens is that both exchanges suffer. Nobody is a winner.
To counter act, Betdaq have to do massive advertising campaign to bring in fish and then when they are making money they will probably introduce a premium charge.
I’m against the charge but don’t think this is the place for the argument.
82.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:30 pm82Fred
GOOD POST I FOUND ON
BETFAIR
Far too much flack on here to have read everything, but has anyone considered the legality of this new premium charge?
Surely the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations covers this type of ‘robbery’.
What BF are proposing is that up to 10 days after an event has happened and been concluded they can come along and take upto 18% of your profit from a transaction and actually not do any more work on that transaction. The Banks are in court over similar activities and they at least wrote you a letter before stealing your money.
83.
on 09 Sep 2008 at 2:38 pm83Volyme
Hundred of millions MARKET MAKERS (some people call them also
traders) money will be leaving by 22. September and I am quite sure they will never return even if you remove ridiculous winners tax. You have pis*ed off your best clients (even if you think they are the worse cos they win too much too quickly) but soon it will be hard for smaller punters get bets matched because liquidity is poor and book is like lay 1,22 and back 1,35. The truth is many don’t really have clue what the price should and none is brave enough to back or lay.
End of the year hopefully most of the money have moved elsewhere. Remember guys most of big players will withdraw their funds 22. day and then move to new site, so don’t judge it too soon.
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