On a side note overall I am a fan of WSEX. Was lucky enough to be at a dinner with the boys across the street and him just a short time before he was going away. Never looked the least bit worried nor did he doubt the road he had taken. He sat there with the confidence of a Christian holding four aces and talked easily all through dinner with us. At the end he proceeded to pick up the tab for 50 of us at The Palm restaurant at Ceasers. Have to respect the guy for what he is doing.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>-customer service has declined.
-Juice. I'm with pancho, interactives at 25-30 spread, and then unable to get in at a reasonable moment, can't help but feel gouged.
-Props. Please don't tell me about your low hold on props, I rarely find either side of a prop which is enticing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with the above comments, especially regarding props. WSEX used to offer quite a few more props than they do now. The NBA Finals props were particularly disappointing this year.
Do you plan to offer the same type and variety of NFL props that you did two years ago, or will you be cutting back even more than you did last year?
If the choice is between the customers pays for transaction fees or you offer lower juice, I would much rather see lower juice. Charging transaction fees would also discourage players who bounce their money around from place to place.
One free payout per month via check or Neteller would be nice though.
Whatever happened to paying 3% interest on customer balances? I thought that was a good incentive for players to keep their money at WSEX.
-Juice. I'm with pancho, interactives at 25-30 spread, and then unable to get in at a reasonable moment, can't help but feel gouged.
-Props. Please don't tell me about your low hold on props, I rarely find either side of a prop which is enticing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with the above comments, especially regarding props. WSEX used to offer quite a few more props than they do now. The NBA Finals props were particularly disappointing this year.
Do you plan to offer the same type and variety of NFL props that you did two years ago, or will you be cutting back even more than you did last year?
If the choice is between the customers pays for transaction fees or you offer lower juice, I would much rather see lower juice. Charging transaction fees would also discourage players who bounce their money around from place to place.
One free payout per month via check or Neteller would be nice though.
Whatever happened to paying 3% interest on customer balances? I thought that was a good incentive for players to keep their money at WSEX.
Patrick-- I hope I haven't given the impression that interactives are a problem. It may be low-yielding, but it's steady, it's high volume, and customers love it.
One thing I don't understand, though: take a market where one team's 25-30 and the other's 70-75. That's a 95 by 105 market, or a theoretical 5.0% hold, in a fast-moving market filled with uncertainty, compared to 4.4% for a straight wager on an NFL game that's been sitting there all week. How can the interactives not represent value? I think some people see the $5 straddle and forget to relate it to the percentages found in straight wagers.
Batistuta--we've been looking for you. We dug through all our e-mails from June 26th to find one similar to the one you posted--we even cross indexed them against our Argentina backers
--but nothing turned up. Please e-mail with your customer ID. While I can't presume to say that support like yours makes it all worthwhile to Jay, it certainly counts for a lot. Thank you.
Megladon-- it may be time to implement a Sunshine Policy in the customer service department. Every book lives or dies by the little guy, and don't let anyone tell you different.
Sorry, but I have to sign off now--will field your other questions tomorrow morning.
Regards,
Haden
WORLD SPORTS EXCHANGE
One thing I don't understand, though: take a market where one team's 25-30 and the other's 70-75. That's a 95 by 105 market, or a theoretical 5.0% hold, in a fast-moving market filled with uncertainty, compared to 4.4% for a straight wager on an NFL game that's been sitting there all week. How can the interactives not represent value? I think some people see the $5 straddle and forget to relate it to the percentages found in straight wagers.
Batistuta--we've been looking for you. We dug through all our e-mails from June 26th to find one similar to the one you posted--we even cross indexed them against our Argentina backers
Megladon-- it may be time to implement a Sunshine Policy in the customer service department. Every book lives or dies by the little guy, and don't let anyone tell you different.
Sorry, but I have to sign off now--will field your other questions tomorrow morning.
Regards,
Haden
WORLD SPORTS EXCHANGE
Haden - I sent you the email on June 27th at 10:33 EST to wsx@wsex.com
I use the name vanzack with you guys - i signed on here as batistuta during a fit of rage during the last world cup - a moment of insanity. I live in Lake Mary florida, and my initials are JB.
You will know who I am now. Please dont ban me from your book though - this was all meant in the spirit of fact finding and I hope I have been fair. You will also see how long I have been losing money to you guys. I know I will want to use you for football as I always do.
Thanks again for the response.
I use the name vanzack with you guys - i signed on here as batistuta during a fit of rage during the last world cup - a moment of insanity. I live in Lake Mary florida, and my initials are JB.
You will know who I am now. Please dont ban me from your book though - this was all meant in the spirit of fact finding and I hope I have been fair. You will also see how long I have been losing money to you guys. I know I will want to use you for football as I always do.
Thanks again for the response.
Haden - I would like you to address this theory related to me. It seems logical to me and this states it pretty well. I think it addresses well the losing practices of most gamblers (including me) so that a 0% hold by a book would still yeild substantial profits. Im curious to see your response:
"WSEX is talking like every gambler who plays there has practical money management and plays only straights. When in fact most players in general will continue to double up their winnings or spend in a suicidal way that it doesnt matter how much they win at what price they will eventually lose! Its a certainty that many dont understand because this can be a disease for many that preys on a very real human weakness. We here in Quebec have a huge story going regarding an athlete's family whom were loan sharks at a local casino backed by a mafia here. For anyone to actually borrow money at a supposed cut of 100% each month is insane and shows how self destructive gamblers really are.
WSEX can talk all they want about how much their sacrificing but in the end they get it all back and then some. Making the lines with no hold would still produce incredible profits. I hate this kind of talk where books will push out how much money they've made their clients on payouts, blah, blah, blah. You guys don't respect the clients with these ludicrous holds so that kind of talk always makes me feel quesy. You guys profit a ton whether or not you have a decent hold. Don't act like your doing anyone tremendous favors."
"WSEX is talking like every gambler who plays there has practical money management and plays only straights. When in fact most players in general will continue to double up their winnings or spend in a suicidal way that it doesnt matter how much they win at what price they will eventually lose! Its a certainty that many dont understand because this can be a disease for many that preys on a very real human weakness. We here in Quebec have a huge story going regarding an athlete's family whom were loan sharks at a local casino backed by a mafia here. For anyone to actually borrow money at a supposed cut of 100% each month is insane and shows how self destructive gamblers really are.
WSEX can talk all they want about how much their sacrificing but in the end they get it all back and then some. Making the lines with no hold would still produce incredible profits. I hate this kind of talk where books will push out how much money they've made their clients on payouts, blah, blah, blah. You guys don't respect the clients with these ludicrous holds so that kind of talk always makes me feel quesy. You guys profit a ton whether or not you have a decent hold. Don't act like your doing anyone tremendous favors."
I'm not sure if whoever wrote that is serious or not. You want the books to open up and supply the lines, employees, overhead, building, lights, 800 numbers etc... and charge us no juice because we'd lose enough anyway for them to make money? LOL. No offense but whoever wrote that probably is a big part of someone's hold.
There are more sharps out there than he realizes and the problem is one wiseguy will sometimes bet the same type of action as 50 squares. Nothing is more dangerous to a shops bottom line to me than how they handle wiseguy action. Without juice these places would get destroyed. We would not have one book open if they relied on "suckers losing enough". It's like flipping coins and each have the same chance of winning but you pay all expenses out of your end. That's what it comes out to....
There are more sharps out there than he realizes and the problem is one wiseguy will sometimes bet the same type of action as 50 squares. Nothing is more dangerous to a shops bottom line to me than how they handle wiseguy action. Without juice these places would get destroyed. We would not have one book open if they relied on "suckers losing enough". It's like flipping coins and each have the same chance of winning but you pay all expenses out of your end. That's what it comes out to....
Haden and WSEX - After having a few hours to digest your response I still have some issues nagging me.
#1 Are you saying that cut vig shops (lets call it what it is - Pinnacle) have a business model that is less than safe for the player? Are they doomed in just a matter of time?
#2 I asked for reasons to bet at your shop and im not so sure I got that. I understand the issues of the payment situation, but if you were at your computer deciding where to send money - would you send it to WSEX or to a cut vig shop? I think you explained your situation well but Im not sure you explained how that effects a player with many options.
#3 If WSEX is Fort Knox (which I dont argue with) - and Pinnacle is my local Bank of America that offers me free checking and other perks - should I really ever need that extra security and be willing to pay a premium?
#4 Can a cut rate shop (pinnacle) make it by doing volume like say a WalMart vs a specialty shop?
I thank you again for your willingness to discuss this but from direct feedback from others Im not sure they are convinced that WSEX has given them reasons to play there.
Thanks in advance.
#1 Are you saying that cut vig shops (lets call it what it is - Pinnacle) have a business model that is less than safe for the player? Are they doomed in just a matter of time?
#2 I asked for reasons to bet at your shop and im not so sure I got that. I understand the issues of the payment situation, but if you were at your computer deciding where to send money - would you send it to WSEX or to a cut vig shop? I think you explained your situation well but Im not sure you explained how that effects a player with many options.
#3 If WSEX is Fort Knox (which I dont argue with) - and Pinnacle is my local Bank of America that offers me free checking and other perks - should I really ever need that extra security and be willing to pay a premium?
#4 Can a cut rate shop (pinnacle) make it by doing volume like say a WalMart vs a specialty shop?
I thank you again for your willingness to discuss this but from direct feedback from others Im not sure they are convinced that WSEX has given them reasons to play there.
Thanks in advance.
Haden, Thanks for responding. If you could explain the drop off in many interactives in golf such as head to head interactives, Tiger scoring, and who will come in second. Sunday you had Tiger at $100 from start to finish. Explain the rational for that when you could of had tremendous action on who would come in second or what Tiger's final round score would be. Also I would love to see HR interactives. You had it the year Bonds hit 73 and then never again. The last couple of years no one knew who would win it until late and this year its anybody's guess. Thanks in advance.
Wow! Big round of applause for that hugely informative post and follow-up discussion. I was just expecting a couple of lines saying some general stuff that WSEX is considering various options etc. and if there is reason to change then you'll get back to us.
I completely believe what you say and it makes a lot of sense. It has been obvious up to now and it is even more obvious after your post that WSEX is in it for the long haul and it is no wonder that one gets that solid-as-a-rock feeling when one bets there.
As for your transaction cost issue, you must certainly make those who incur the cost bear the cost. That is the only fair way and is pretty much the norm nowadays I think. On Neteller I believe you give one free per 10 days and a $15 fee above that which is a good policy IMO. For credit cards and other methods I would recommend something similar ie. one free withdrawal every X days and a fee schedule applies thereafter and possibly waive fees for certain customers who meet certain criteria like minimum action, losses or whatever.
Perhaps a 5 or 10% bonus for the FIRST Neteller deposit with a cap of $100, say, shouldn't be too costly and might take pressure off the CC's in the long run because once you go through the hassle of setting up a Neteller account (as a customer) it becomes smooth sailing and then it's hard to go back to using CC's again.
Just my thoughts.
Oh, and on a side note, today I was thinking of betting on the Mets-Braves game but the line was taken off at 7:10 pm despite the rain delay at the start. I think you should keep your lines active until the actual start of the game in those situations.
Otherwise, congratulations on an oustanding sportsbook and thanks a lot for sharing all that info. with us.
I completely believe what you say and it makes a lot of sense. It has been obvious up to now and it is even more obvious after your post that WSEX is in it for the long haul and it is no wonder that one gets that solid-as-a-rock feeling when one bets there.
As for your transaction cost issue, you must certainly make those who incur the cost bear the cost. That is the only fair way and is pretty much the norm nowadays I think. On Neteller I believe you give one free per 10 days and a $15 fee above that which is a good policy IMO. For credit cards and other methods I would recommend something similar ie. one free withdrawal every X days and a fee schedule applies thereafter and possibly waive fees for certain customers who meet certain criteria like minimum action, losses or whatever.
Perhaps a 5 or 10% bonus for the FIRST Neteller deposit with a cap of $100, say, shouldn't be too costly and might take pressure off the CC's in the long run because once you go through the hassle of setting up a Neteller account (as a customer) it becomes smooth sailing and then it's hard to go back to using CC's again.
Just my thoughts.
Oh, and on a side note, today I was thinking of betting on the Mets-Braves game but the line was taken off at 7:10 pm despite the rain delay at the start. I think you should keep your lines active until the actual start of the game in those situations.
Otherwise, congratulations on an oustanding sportsbook and thanks a lot for sharing all that info. with us.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by batistuta:
Haden - I would like you to address this theory related to me. It seems logical to me and this states it pretty well. I think it addresses well the losing practices of most gamblers (including me) so that a 0% hold by a book would still yeild substantial profits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Batistuta - juice and hold are not the same things. Hold percentage is just that, what a book holds in relation to the handle they take. If you say 0% hold that means they didn't make a quarter. If they took 100k in action and after paying out on the bet have 5k left than their hold was 5%. It isn't necessarily that the more juice a bet has the more the book will hold. For instance a book may take a lot of wiseguy action and/or hang early numbers to get hit, the exposure on these books is more significant than others. When numbers land it hurts. As a result their hold % in a book like CRIS will not be the same as a book like Wagerstreet, it will be much less though the juice is the same. Of course a book like CRIS makes up for it in handle, just a different way of doing business.
Or say on prop bets books often do not get a lot of action on these bets. What they do get is often one-sided action and proportionately there is a lot of sharps involved so while the juice is higher I would guess the hold is much lower than other bets the books have. That's why a lot of books don't like to hang a lot of props. Anyway not busting on you, just tryng to add to the thread. I am a square like most others so maybe Haden can clear the rest of your thoughts up for you. Thanks for the post.
PS - I agree with you the reduced juice from a book like Pinnacle it is a very attractive place for the player. I love that shop.
Haden - I would like you to address this theory related to me. It seems logical to me and this states it pretty well. I think it addresses well the losing practices of most gamblers (including me) so that a 0% hold by a book would still yeild substantial profits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Batistuta - juice and hold are not the same things. Hold percentage is just that, what a book holds in relation to the handle they take. If you say 0% hold that means they didn't make a quarter. If they took 100k in action and after paying out on the bet have 5k left than their hold was 5%. It isn't necessarily that the more juice a bet has the more the book will hold. For instance a book may take a lot of wiseguy action and/or hang early numbers to get hit, the exposure on these books is more significant than others. When numbers land it hurts. As a result their hold % in a book like CRIS will not be the same as a book like Wagerstreet, it will be much less though the juice is the same. Of course a book like CRIS makes up for it in handle, just a different way of doing business.
Or say on prop bets books often do not get a lot of action on these bets. What they do get is often one-sided action and proportionately there is a lot of sharps involved so while the juice is higher I would guess the hold is much lower than other bets the books have. That's why a lot of books don't like to hang a lot of props. Anyway not busting on you, just tryng to add to the thread. I am a square like most others so maybe Haden can clear the rest of your thoughts up for you. Thanks for the post.
PS - I agree with you the reduced juice from a book like Pinnacle it is a very attractive place for the player. I love that shop.
Fort Knox? No.
WSEX has been requested to put players funds in a trust/escrow account many times but they refuse. They are located in Antigua, not a more regulated juridiction like England or Australia. One of their principals is currently under indictment in the USA.
Not to slight wsex, but lets be serious. Here's a list of 5 far safer shops, right off the cuff:
Canbet- publically traded in australia and located in england. Keeps funds in an escrow account.
sportingbet- england publicly traded.
Bet365- Long established walk up and online book in England.
Will Hill- long established walkup/phone shop in england.
Bowmans- long established phone shop in england.
WWTS- recently bought out by a publicly traded company in australia, now under aussie regulation.
Okay that's 6, and there's at least 10 more comparable to the safety of wsex.
So lets stop exaggerating the wsex myth, they're one of the safer shops, but have failed to move ahead with the rest of the industry.
Btw, batistuta, hope you get a big fat bonus.
WSEX has been requested to put players funds in a trust/escrow account many times but they refuse. They are located in Antigua, not a more regulated juridiction like England or Australia. One of their principals is currently under indictment in the USA.
Not to slight wsex, but lets be serious. Here's a list of 5 far safer shops, right off the cuff:
Canbet- publically traded in australia and located in england. Keeps funds in an escrow account.
sportingbet- england publicly traded.
Bet365- Long established walk up and online book in England.
Will Hill- long established walkup/phone shop in england.
Bowmans- long established phone shop in england.
WWTS- recently bought out by a publicly traded company in australia, now under aussie regulation.
Okay that's 6, and there's at least 10 more comparable to the safety of wsex.
So lets stop exaggerating the wsex myth, they're one of the safer shops, but have failed to move ahead with the rest of the industry.
Btw, batistuta, hope you get a big fat bonus.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One thing I don't understand, though: take a market where one team's 25-30 and the other's 70-75. That's a 95 by 105 market, or a theoretical 5.0% hold, in a fast-moving market filled with uncertainty, compared to 4.4% for a straight wager on an NFL game that's been sitting there all week. How can the interactives not represent value?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you trade the interactives there's a transaction cost both entering and exiting a position. That turns your theoretical hold from 5% to 10%. That's just way too high.
If you trade the interactives there's a transaction cost both entering and exiting a position. That turns your theoretical hold from 5% to 10%. That's just way too high.
megladon,
I agree that escrow accounts and good legal jurisdictions are important elements in the solidity issue, but I think overall financial soundness is number one. I would be willing to make two types of bets on WSEX over Canbet:
1) That WSEX stays in business longer, and
2) That WSEX screws fewer customers (ie. fails to pay monies owed)
Although I would put a 0-0 draw at about -500 in the case of number 2.
I believe that Canbet's lines are not responsive enough to market moves and so they are much more vulnerable to steam plays and other sharp tactics. Their recent move to England also created confidence questions IMO.
I'm still going to trust Canbet, but I'm quite sure my money's as safe at WSEX as it is with any bank in the civilized world. To illustrate my point further, money given to me temporarily is also as safe as a bank, even though I am pretty much able to avoid all legal scrutiny in the world, but I can't blame you for not knowing that.
I agree that escrow accounts and good legal jurisdictions are important elements in the solidity issue, but I think overall financial soundness is number one. I would be willing to make two types of bets on WSEX over Canbet:
1) That WSEX stays in business longer, and
2) That WSEX screws fewer customers (ie. fails to pay monies owed)
Although I would put a 0-0 draw at about -500 in the case of number 2.
I believe that Canbet's lines are not responsive enough to market moves and so they are much more vulnerable to steam plays and other sharp tactics. Their recent move to England also created confidence questions IMO.
I'm still going to trust Canbet, but I'm quite sure my money's as safe at WSEX as it is with any bank in the civilized world. To illustrate my point further, money given to me temporarily is also as safe as a bank, even though I am pretty much able to avoid all legal scrutiny in the world, but I can't blame you for not knowing that.
