A degree is a degree

[rolltide]

I think state school and then transfer to private school after 2 years would be better advice for a lot of your friends parents. Or just stay at the state school obviously. Maybe take CC classes that will transfer over the summer to reduce costs as well.
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ridiculous if you think the ROI for 2 years at a state school for core curriculum has a better ROI than 2 years at CC if the idea is to move to more of a program-oriented school after 2 years. Case in point....state penn up in creepy valley is 35k/yr for tuition, room, board. Assuming a decent 15-credit semester x4 you have 60 credits for 70k or $1167/credit. CCAC in Pittsburgh is $104.75/credit for pittsburgh folks and $209.50/credit for any PA resident outside of Pittsburgh. So instead of 71k to clear through some core credits you're at $6285 and you aren't starting your career -$65k for English Lit 101 in an auditorium that seats 750.

so perhaps it depends on the state school and the cost associated but dropping 70k on some core curriculum bullshit just to "acclimate" to the college environment vs $6k is silly. I realize most parents let their kids choose whatever they feel like but I don't think my advice is out of line and since I'm in the practice of hiring people I can tell you, from a resume perspective, it's where your Bachelors and Masters is from that counts...I couldn't care less what school you attended for Algebra II and Intro to Philosophy

 

[PatsFan1283]

ridiculous if you think the ROI for 2 years at a state school for core curriculum has a better ROI than 2 years at CC if the idea is to move to more of a program-oriented school after 2 years. Case in point....state penn up in creepy valley is 35k/yr for tuition, room, board. Assuming a decent 15-credit semester x4 you have 60 credits for 70k or $1167/credit. CCAC in Pittsburgh is $104.75/credit for pittsburgh folks and $209.50/credit for any PA resident outside of Pittsburgh. So instead of 71k to clear through some core credits you're at $6285 and you aren't starting your career -$65k for English Lit 101 in an auditorium that seats 750.

so perhaps it depends on the state school and the cost associated but dropping 70k on some core curriculum bullshit just to "acclimate" to the college environment vs $6k is silly. I realize most parents let their kids choose whatever they feel like but I don't think my advice is out of line and since I'm in the practice of hiring people I can tell you, from a resume perspective, it's where your Bachelors and Masters is from that counts...I couldn't care less what school you attended for Algebra II and Intro to Philosophy

You can't just take that phrase and not consider what was said in the rest of the post.

You're using an extreme example to get to the 70k vs 6k. Most instances the difference is not going to be nearly that big when it comes to state vs CC. I think if you took 1000 kids and had them go state and another 1k kids and had them go CC and we measured their success 25 years later, the state kids would win by a lot. The 30k they would save on those first 2 years is not enough to makeup for the difference in outcomes.

I think CC's are great but the dropout rate is high, you're not necessarily going to be surrounded by as competitive of people and I think a lot of times kids can detatch from the learning process. Then, you can't dismiss what I said about the motivation issues. If the plan is just to go CC then getting a 2.0 HS GPA and learning nothing is far more likely, you think a lot of these students are just going to be able to "flip the switch" when they get to CC and beyond? Their study habits will be poor.

I didn't say your advice was out of line, I just said it isn't going to work for everyone and you should consider some other factors.

 

[Acebb]

One area I've observed play out in line with RT's extreme example is nursing school.

You can go to CC and get an associates RN degree (2 years) for roughly $13,000 and change.

Or, you can go get a BSN for $33,000 per year and end up making $2 more an hour to start.

Now if you want to make it up, you can go the RN--> BSN at the 4 year school and you end up paying about $17K to finish which is a bargain considering the circumstance.

 

[PatsFan1283]

Something like nursing is a defined career path, but if you're 18 or 19 and don't have a defined career path (which really you probably shouldn't at that age) then going to a CC with a bunch of other people that also probably don't have a career path, a lot of them are just there to check the societal box, etc can make people detach. Like I said, CC dropout rates >>> state schools.

I know you said Happy Valley is 35k but a lot of state schools aren't nearly that much, especially after grants, aid, etc. And while I said there is value in living at the school, obviously you can significantly reduce costs to a state school by living at home. I think if you do that, you still get much more of the "college experience" than going to a CC.

 

[PatsFan1283]

When do you tell the kid he should go to CC? Before his last few years of HS so he has no incentive to academically excel or after he spent the time excelling and realized he is now going to be in class with a bunch of people that aren't on the same educational track as him.

Like I said, there is no 1 way to skin a cat but to think everyone who starts out in state school and CC is going to windup in the same place at the end is probably misguided.

Yeah, lower costs have a better ROI but if you fall off the tracks then it is pretty moot.

 

[Enfuego]

When do you tell the kid he should go to CC? Before his last few years of HS so he has no incentive to academically excel or after he spent the time excelling and realized he is now going to be in class with a bunch of people that aren't on the same educational track as him.

Like I said, there is no 1 way to skin a cat but to think everyone who starts out in state school and CC is going to windup in the same place at the end is probably misguided.

Yeah, lower costs have a better ROI but if you fall off the tracks then it is pretty moot.

I went to a CC for two years before my four year university for two reasons. First, I wanted to save money. Second, academically, I was not ready for a big school and I knew it. CC helped me prepare to jump to the next level. Kind of like the NBA Developmental League I guess.

 

[rolltide]

You're using an extreme example to get to the 70k vs 6k.

no I'm actually using my local Pittsburgh CCAC and PA state school. I don't know what Salisbury State tuition is but i do know penn state so i gave you a very real example, for me. Clearly it is different by state but, hell, even PSU at Behrend or Beaver is 31k/yr. so obviously when people ask for my advice they are people in western PA. If they want their kid to go 65k in debt do it on a great master's degree program (not MBA) not on intro to Psychology.

no doubt in CT it is much different. Western, Southern, Central Conn State are pretty inexpensive and a better education than whatever CC there is (been a while since i lived there so i can't remember). so no doubt going THAT route before, say, a Quinnipiac bachelors and masters would be my recommendation.

obviously not every shoe fits the same foot. If you have a tremendous student that they are tossing tens of thousands in academic scholarships then go a full 4-years at one school. I'm talking the kid who is pushing his parent's to let him go to 45k/yr Duquesne or 35k/yr State Penn right off the bat. I can show them how it's stupid but whether or not they have that chat with the kid is a different story. I would now also encourage anyone in engineering, computer science, or other technical or clinical field to get a Masters which is even more reason to go the less expensive route for 2 years.

I also believe that extra savings with 2 years allows a confused 18-YO to really help decide what they want to do. I changed by major 3x or maybe it was 4...can't remember, but what i THOUGHT i wanted to do when i stepped into college at 17 was not only different than what I ended up majoring in but it was also vastly different than my career choice. The thought of banging up 100k in loans for an Occupational Therapy degree to end up as a Librarian is a very real possibility when you ask a teenager to decide what they want to be when they grow up

 

[PatsFan1283]

no I'm actually using my local Pittsburgh CCAC and PA state school. I don't know what Salisbury State tuition is but i do know penn state so i gave you a very real example, for me. Clearly it is different by state but, hell, even PSU at Behrend or Beaver is 31k/yr. so obviously when people ask for my advice they are people in western PA. If they want their kid to go 65k in debt do it on a great master's degree program (not MBA) not on intro to Psychology.

no doubt in CT it is much different. Western, Southern, Central Conn State are pretty inexpensive and a better education than whatever CC there is (been a while since i lived there so i can't remember). so no doubt going THAT route before, say, a Quinnipiac bachelors and masters would be my recommendation.

obviously not every shoe fits the same foot. If you have a tremendous student that they are tossing tens of thousands in academic scholarships then go a full 4-years at one school. I'm talking the kid who is pushing his parent's to let him go to 45k/yr Duquesne or 35k/yr State Penn right off the bat. I can show them how it's stupid but whether or not they have that chat with the kid is a different story. I would now also encourage anyone in engineering, computer science, or other technical or clinical field to get a Masters which is even more reason to go the less expensive route for 2 years.

I also believe that extra savings with 2 years allows a confused 18-YO to really help decide what they want to do. I changed by major 3x or maybe it was 4...can't remember, but what i THOUGHT i wanted to do when i stepped into college at 17 was not only different than what I ended up majoring in but it was also vastly different than my career choice. The thought of banging up 100k in loans for an Occupational Therapy degree to end up as a Librarian is a very real possibility when you ask a teenager to decide what they want to be when they grow up

Yeah, I meant extreme example as in PA the gap is bigger because PSU is expensive and CC there is so cheap. If you look at an MA CC and UMass schools, the difference isn't quite as big. Some other states same thing, CT like you said. That is all I meant. I get what you mean if the advice is tailored to people in the western PA community it is with that choice in mind. I was making more of a general statement rather than about the people you give advice to.

In MA, UMass is like 25k, and CC is probably like 4-5. So 40k difference over 2 years but if you live at home, get grants and aid, etc then that narrows fast. People just need to be more vigilant in the cost/benefit analysis.

One thing that would be an easy way to save that most people don't do is just take summer classes at a CC. The semester ends in early May and doesn't begin again until late August, a lot of kids can easily bang out 1 or 2 courses each summer. Even the summer before college if they really care about the cost that much. Unfortunately, when you are that young it is tough to really care about the debt too much since it is down the line.

 

[PatsFan1283]

I went to a CC for two years before my four year university for two reasons. First, I wanted to save money. Second, academically, I was not ready for a big school and I knew it. CC helped me prepare to jump to the next level. Kind of like the NBA Developmental League I guess.

Yeah, you were probably mature enough to get from point A to point B, had goals, a plan, etc.

I do think a lot of kids in CC just kinda get bored with it, engagement level isn't as high and they maybe don't identify with being a student as much. Why the dropout rate is a little higher. Also, my point stands about telling them to go to a state school gives them something to work for in HS, whereas telling them to go to CC is kinda saying to them "This HS stuff is useless, you're just going here after and there is no admission requirements"

But obviously CC is great overall for people to get their feet wet, non-traditional students to go back to school and to save $ in general.

Main thing is to have a school or two in mind where you want to go after and identify what exactly transfers and what doesn't. Taking classes that don't transfer is pretty demoralizing for some kids.

 

[rolltide]

One thing that would be an easy way to save that most people don't do is just take summer classes at a CC. The semester ends in early May and doesn't begin again until late August, a lot of kids can easily bang out 1 or 2 courses each summer. Even the summer before college if they really care about the cost that much. Unfortunately, when you are that young it is tough to really care about the debt too much since it is down the line.

yeah i did that summers at UAB would come home and take 2 courses at West Conn and work 30 hours. We were on trimester so had to be back early August but was enough time to take summer courses. Actually remember one was interesting as hell...History of the Middle East. That was back in 1990 or so ... probably not allowed to have that course today but one of the few non-major college classes I can actually say that the material has allowed me to understand the subject 25 years later. Only other thing i remember from non-major courses is that I was as shitty at Calculus in college as i was in high school

There are good and bad teachers everywhere whether you pay $110/credit or $2k. True story ... i subbed in for the Chairman Head of the Duquesne School of Entrepreneurial Studies for his night class a few times before he passed away because he wanted me to tell them about the link between talent acquisition and start-ups. The chair head pulled me aside after he introduced me (then took off for a Pitt hoops game) and showed me the notes left behind by the previous instructor. Notes were from 1987 .... dude did not change his curriculum for 25 years (!) and kids are paying 40k+ (that's just tuition) to attend that school. I don't think that happens much at Pitt and CMU but was troubling, to say the least

 

[Enfuego]

Yeah, you were probably mature enough to get from point A to point B, had goals, a plan, etc.

I do think a lot of kids in CC just kinda get bored with it, engagement level isn't as high and they maybe don't identify with being a student as much. Why the dropout rate is a little higher. Also, my point stands about telling them to go to a state school gives them something to work for in HS, whereas telling them to go to CC is kinda saying to them "This HS stuff is useless, you're just going here after and there is no admission requirements"

But obviously CC is great overall for people to get their feet wet, non-traditional students to go back to school and to save $ in general.

Main thing is to have a school or two in mind where you want to go after and identify what exactly transfers and what doesn't. Taking classes that don't transfer is pretty demoralizing for some kids.

Yeah, different case for me. I'd been accepted at a few state universities but CC just seemed like the better option at that time. Wouldn't change a thing. The path I took was good for my situation.

Think the key is to have goals. What are you trying to do and how do you get there? No goals means no direction.

 

[texansfan]

As mentioned, there are exceptions to not having a degree and making a six figure living, I'm one of them. I had no interest in college so why waste the money.

I'm also lucky that I qualify for the Hazlewood Act, which allows me to transfer 150 college hours to my kids to use for free.

 

[Illini]

"If you look at the long-term trend, [college tuition] has been rising almost six percent above the rate of inflation," said Ray Franke, a professor of education at the University of Massachusetts, Boston. "That's brought immense pressure from the media and general public, asking whether college is still worth it."


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That article points out that the tuition at Harvard is up more than 1000% from where it was in 1971.

By the way, I have no idea what "a degree is a degree" is supposed to mean, but if it suggests the a U of Phoenix Degree is the same as say one from Columbia, you're mistaken.

That's what Phoenix says. A degree is a degree, you're gonna want someone like me if you only have a brain.

 

[Enfuego]

That's what Phoenix says. A degree is a degree, you're gonna want someone like me if you only have a brain.

I will say though there are some jobs out there where the only way you will progress is with the paper and that's all they care about. So, if you aren't interested and don't want to spend a ton of money and your job doesn't care where you get the degree from, who really cares?