4 Civilians - 5 Soldiers killed in IRAQ. Residents hang bodies from bridge

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Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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XP, they did release the names yesterday. Here's some more detail about BlackWATER (not BlackHAWK) Security Consulting with my own comments inserted in ALL CAPS:

Website: http://www.blackwaterusa.com

Employees (SOLDIERS) In Iraq: About 400

Average Pay In Iraq: Just under $1000 a day for ex-commandos (OVER 300,000 PER YEAR....HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT U.S. GRUNTS WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH BULLETPROOF JACKETS?)



~~~~~~~~~

We have over 15,000 such mercenaries employed in Iraq currently. The U.S. Dept of War preefers to use these guys because they are not subject to normal wartime rules of engagement and if they commit crimes against civilians (and yeah, you can bet on it) the U.S. government won't be held accountable.
 

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Barman--No one was whining about losing anyone..Just stating facts about the situation that brought the war a little closer to home..Dying for your country is more meaningful than dying any other way, regardless of whether you believe it was needless...

We must continue to fight while we are there..Do we have a choice?..We must crush all resistance to freedom..A little more force may do wonders in the long run..

Landers--My friend holds no hard feelings for the government...His son chose to fight for his country...(Your friend's son would still be with us had Bush not ordered a pre-emptive occupation based on fabricated information.)What should we have done?...I believe war was inevitable...Do you believe in the "BOMB" ?

Xpanda---If there were no videos, the names would not be with-held...I also believe if they were Military, we would also know who they were..

Captain #5---Chill dude...America is at war...We will continue to fight...
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerclicks:
Barman--No one was whining about losing anyone..Just stating facts about the situation that brought the war a little closer to home..Dying for your country is more meaningful than dying any other way, regardless of whether you believe it was needless...

We must continue to fight while we are there..Do we have a choice?..We must crush all resistance to freedom..A little more force may do wonders in the long run..

Landers--My friend holds no hard feelings for the government...His son chose to fight for his country...(Your friend's son would still be with us had Bush not ordered a pre-emptive occupation based on fabricated information.)What should we have done?...I believe war was inevitable...Do you believe in the "BOMB" ?

Xpanda---If there were no videos, the names would not be with-held...I also believe if they were Military, theyw ould have already released them---eventually, they will...

Captain #5---Chill dude...America is at war...We will continue to fight...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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TClicks, I realize 'you' weren't whining...It was a bit of very dark sarcasm on my part.

What 'should' we have done?

We should have left the Iraqis to deal with Hussein and 'regime change' in their own way.

Yes, thousands would have died, just like they are dying now.

Yes, it would mean civil war, just as is happening now.

The only difference is that we have stuck our bigg fatt nose into it, via U.S. military troops, and now our close U.S. friends and U.S. neighbors are dying as part of the inevitable bloodbath which accompanies such wars.

Meanwhile, not one single person within the borders of the USA is any safer from possible terrorist attack(s) then they were 55 weeks ago when we first invaded. Nor will the coming weeks of continued U.S. sponsored killing change that.

I don't envy the conundrum faced by G.W. Bush.

If he stays in thousands more American soldiers will die over the next four years, with no discernible benefit to U.S. interests, save the literal billions being paid to the 'reconstruction' contractors like Halliburton etal.

If he pulls out (Pull Out?!? Doesn't sound manly to me - G. Carlin), it could be said that Americans are pu$sies. And you know a gritty hardened cowboy (albeit with manicured fingernails) from Texas can't have that image being thrown around during the remaining eight months of his time as King of the World.
 

There's always next year, like in 75, 90-93, 99 &
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Landers--My friend holds no hard feelings for the government...His son chose to fight for his country...(Your friend's son would still be with us had Bush not ordered a pre-emptive occupation based on fabricated information.)
We all grieve and cope differently.

What should we have done?...I believe war was inevitable...Do you believe in the "BOMB" ?
Umm .. maybe we could have not fabricated evidence to "justify" our pre-emptive occupation of Iraq. Of course, then the execution record holder couldn't have caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents and very likely setting off a civil war that will kill tens of thousands more.

But, hey - fuk it ... we have a war evading "war time president".
 

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Lander,

Whether or not Saddam was misleading everyone about his biological weapons program he still violated numerous resolutions passed by your precious UN. The military response was already justified. All this other stuff was cosmetic for the idiots who needed more.

Why all the aversion to violence, Lander? Were you traumatized as a child?
 

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First off, our disdain for the UN clearly shows that we do NOT respect their authority. This authority, of course, includes resolutions.

However, just for the sake of your illogic - Isreal has violated multiple resolutions.
Do you suggest we pre-emptively attack and occupy Isreal too? Or is your pro-genocide view merely a blind view that supports anything and everything our war-evading appointed president says?

Why all the aversion to violence, Lander? Were you traumatized as a child?
Ah, the good old "ad hominum attack" - the sign of an insecure and/or uninformed position.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> First off, our disdain for the UN clearly shows that we do NOT respect their authority. This authority, of course, includes resolutions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only wish to use the UN as a reference point since so many others DO respect it. If that is not you, so be it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Isreal has violated multiple resolutions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you happen to have the resolution #'s? I suppose you condemn Israel for destroying Iraq's nuclear reactor and annexing the Golan Heights and taking out Yassin. Those are the consequences of Arabic aggression. To the victor go the spoils. You may not like it but that's the way it is. I don't see Israel gearing up their armed forces for a final showdown with Islam. I see Israel taking various steps to undermine the opposition which in turn might save some of their citizen's lives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do you suggest we pre-emptively attack and occupy Isreal too? Or is your pro-genocide view merely a blind view that supports anything and everything our war-evading appointed president says?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My pro-genocide view is to lessen the appeal of the continued support for Islamic extremists. I don't like Bush. I would rather someone else occupy the Presidency. However, that person is not Kerry. Lander, since we're on the subject of military service, have you ever been in the service? If so, what branch and how long? I'm not trying to bash. I'm only trying to answer some of my mental questions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ah, the good old "ad hominum attack" - the sign of an insecure and/or uninformed position. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK I'm insecure. Now what? You never answered my question and I have a feeling why. Those questions were a civilized way of me calling you a puss. You sound like the type of person that reasons his way through life. I don't think you could get by if you had to resort to violence. These types of people do not understand the violent mentality just because it's not common practice. I remember your stance on firearms and how you kept on and on about YOUR uninformed position. Only when backed into a corner did you partially change your theories.

Good Night, Sir
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I only wish to use the UN as a reference point since so many others DO respect it. If that is not you, so be it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Simple logic dictates that if you respect the UN's ability to make resolutions, then you must also respect it's ability to enforce them as it sees fit. The fact that our embarrassment of a president does not understand logic does not deter from this fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you happen to have the resolution #'s? I suppose you condemn Israel for destroying Iraq's nuclear reactor and annexing the Golan Heights and taking out Yassin. Those are the consequences of Arabic aggression. To the victor go the spoils. You may not like it but that's the way it is. I don't see Israel gearing up their armed forces for a final showdown with Islam. I see Israel taking various steps to undermine the opposition which in turn might save some of their citizen's lives. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.state.gov/p/io/rls/othr/2002/9105.htm
UN Security Council Resolution 1402 (2002)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 4503rd meeting, on 30 March 2002

The Security Council,

Reaffirming its resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967, 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973, 1397 (2002) of 12 March 2002, and the Madrid principles,

Expressing its grave concern at the further deterioration of the situation, including the recent suicide bombings in Israel and the military attack against the headquarters of the President of the Palestinian Authority,

1. Calls upon both parties to move immediately to a meaningful ceasefire; calls for the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian cities, including Ramallah; and calls upon the parties to cooperate fully with Special Envoy Zinni, and others, to implement the Tenet security work plan as a first step towards implementation of the Mitchell Committee recommendations, with the aim of resuming negotiations on a political settlement;

2. Reiterates its demand in resolution 1397 (2002) of 12 March 2002 for an immediate cessation of all acts of violence, including all acts of terror, provocation, incitement and destruction;

3. Expresses support for the efforts of the Secretary-General and the special envoys to the Middle East to assist the parties to halt the violence and to resume the peace process;

4. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OK I'm insecure. Now what? You never answered my question and I have a feeling why. Those questions were a civilized way of me calling you a puss.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Had you read and properly comprehended what I had written then you would have understood that I called the position of the "ad hominum attacking" author insecure and/or uniformed, not necessarily the author himself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You sound like the type of person that reasons his way through life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe that's known as "intelligence".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't think you could get by if you had to resort to violence. These types of people do not understand the violent mentality just because it's not common practice. I remember your stance on firearms and how you kept on and on about YOUR uninformed position. Only when backed into a corner did you partially change your theories.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While your hypothesis are all false in my particular case the fact is that is is completely irrevelant with regards to a logical proof - which is precisely what an argument is in its purest form.

The irony of the "ad hominum attack" is that by nature if falsely seeks to prove a point by discrediting the author instead of disproving the point - which, of course, simply equates to one discreding himself.

Ah, fuk it - the truth is that I don't give a fuk about you, and frankly I have more important shit to do that to hope to educate you on the essentials of truth and logic
 

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Go to the link in Phaedus's response ...MSNBC, look at the audio slide show midway down on the right, "Wounded in the line of duty".

For all of the tree-hugging, fur-saving, French loving Liberals ......you don't hear these guys bitching. You people just don't get it. This is becoming a religious war. Most Muslims and the majority of Arabs don't like people from the West....period. I didn't see Japan bombing, shooting, yelling at the Yankees and Devil Rays this week ...and we dropped "the bomb" on them. I can't believe some people really think we should just sit here and do nothing. Yes, sometimes it may seem more pro-active than other times....but the USA has never attacking a nation for the heck of it. If that were true....all of the islands in the Carribean would be ours. I could only wish ..that if we ever do sit around like a bunch of French p*ssies that the terrorists will hit the Liberal ass fuks first. Maybe then ...and only then when you see a charred body that you will put down that Soy burger and get a new attitude.
 

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Originally posted by xpanda:
what the US is doing in Iraq (and others) is pure aggression -- what the Iraqis are doing is pure self-defence.
QUOTE]

I think you have to qualify that last statement a little more. The ones who are acting in "self-defense" are the groups who lost power with the overthrow of Saddam's regime, such as the Sunni Muslims. And, these groups acting in "self-defense" have actually killed more Iraqis than Americans in their attacks. They're committed to a war of attrition. They know they can't win. They hope their resistence causes enough political conflict that the American politicians call off the dogs to appease the American people. Then they can go back to their real business of turning the country of Iraq upside down and terrorizing their own people.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by American:
Originally posted by xpanda:
what the US is doing in Iraq (and others) is pure aggression -- what the Iraqis are doing is pure self-defence.
QUOTE]

I think you have to qualify that last statement a little more. The ones who are acting in "self-defense" are the groups who lost power with the overthrow of Saddam's regime, such as the Sunni Muslims. And, these groups acting in "self-defense" have actually killed more Iraqis than Americans in their attacks. They're committed to a war of attrition. They know they can't win. They hope their resistence causes enough political conflict that the American politicians call off the dogs to appease the American people. Then they can go back to their real business of turning the country of Iraq upside down and terrorizing their own people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

American, you can't debate this idea with the left. Xpanda routinely makes up falsehoods like most Iraqis don't want the US there, and Iraqis are fighting to protect their country. She ignores who is in the interim council, and who will take over once the US cedes power in a few months. No, because those who have lost power are killing those who have gained power, this proves the US was wrong and Iraqis didn't want Sadaam to go.

Using this as an example, we will now see Xpanda encouraging Spain to surrender its governence to Muslim rule. After all, there were a couple of hundred deaths attributable to the Arabs a few weeks ago. Apparently one terrorist attack speaks for an entire population. If a Bathist Iraqi plants a suicide bomb on the side of the road, that means the rest of the Iraqi population supports such acts.
 

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The usual right wing falsehoods, oh what a surprise.

If you put some perspective on it, instead of that right wing German marching song rhetoric.

The religious idiots can do no more than pinpricks in the scheme of things, you have more chance of being killed by a car.

We on the other hand have fuxxed up an entire region with a population of millions, and it took a whole 3 weeks.

The only payback they can really employ is a few minor attacks on the invasion army.
If your country gets illegally invaded by a foreign power, you work towards removing them asap. I think Americans can deal with that concept.
---------------------------------------

I would also be interested to know if unofficial privatised military units (15,000 men according to another thread) are covered by the UN charter or the Geneva convention.

Or is it OK for an invasion force to import thousands of unknown mercenaries.
Is this for a Phoenix program?
Pretty much nothing is being done to repair the infrastructure of Iraq, so an entire division of bodyguards smells kinda fishy.

Or doesn't it matter, 'cos its YOU that does it.

But if the other guy brings in 15,000 chechen mercenaries(for security purposes), then thats a bad thing, not equally as dirty.

Yup. Re-colonisation is a dirty expensive business.

I notice the euro dudes dragging their heels over the NATO scam.
It looks like George is going to have to go back to the UN, and pronto, or the US could be stuck in Iraq for a while.

------------------------------------
But Germany's Foreign Minister, Joschka Fischer, said Nato was already "overstretched" with its missions in the Balkans, Afghanistan and its efforts to fight terrorism.

His new French counterpart, Michel Barnier, said the issue was "not topical".

"We think Nato is simply not the right place where a decision should be prepared or taken concerning the situation in Iraq after 1 July," he said, referring to the date of the planned handover of sovereignty to a caretaker government in Iraq.
--------------------------------------
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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PHAEDRUS: I would also be interested to know if unofficial privatised military units (15,000 men according to another thread) are covered by the UN charter or the Geneva convention.

BM: Nope. They are not military. They are 'security' firms. Private contractors subject only to the terms of their contract with their employer.
 

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Two attacks on Iraqi police kill four.
DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
Saturday, April 3, 2004

(04-03) 05:44 PST BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) --

Two attacks on Iraqi police south of Baghdad killed four people Saturday, the latest violence directed at local authorities linked to the U.S.-led occupation.

Gunmen fired on a vehicle carrying Col. Wisam Hussein, the police chief of Mahmoudiya, 20 miles south of Baghdad, killing him and his driver, police Lt. Ala'a Hussein said. They were returning from the capital.

Later Saturday, six unidentified assailants attacked a four-man police patrol in the town, killing one and wounding three, police officer Khaldoon al-Gurairi said. He said a 60-year-old bystander was also killed.

Insurgents consider Iraqi police collaborators with the U.S.-led coalition. More than 350 policemen have been killed by shootings and suicide bombings since the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime last year.

On March 24, nine police recruits were killed when gunmen shot at their vehicle in southern Babil province.

The violence has not stopped Iraqis from seeking the jobs. In the southern city of Basra, unemployed men demanding jobs as policemen clashed with Iraqi security forces Saturday, police Col. Ali Kahdum said. He said the protesters raided and looted the city's central police office, and three protesters were hurt.

Also Saturday, an explosion near a U.S. military convoy near Khalis, 40 miles northeast of Baghdad, wounded a civilian and damaged a Humvee, Iraqi officials said. A policeman who witnessed the blast said on condition of anonymity that it came from within a car left on the roadside.

American forces blocked off the area after the attack, witnesses said. It was not clear if any Americans suffered casualties. A U.S. official in Baghdad could not confirm the bombing.

In western Baghdad on Saturday, a rocket slammed into a house in a residential suburb, killing two people and wounding four, said a doctor at Yarmouk hospital, Jamil Ibrahim. It was not clear who owned the house.

Meanwhile, about 5,000 members of radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's self-styled militia, the al-Mahdi Army, paraded in Sadr City, a mainly Shiite district in eastern Baghdad, on Saturday. The unarmed black-clad militiamen carried portraits of the cleric. They marched past a reviewing stand where Muslim clerics acknowledged their salute.

Hundreds of Iraqis lined the route. Sharpshooters from the militia were stationed on rooftops. Al-Sadr has been an outspoken critic of the U.S.-led occupation, but has not called for attacks on the occupying forces.

Spanish forces arrested Mustafa al-Yaqoubi, a senior aide to al-Sadr, in a raid on his house in the southern city of Najaf before dawn Saturday, said Sheik Haider al-Mousawi, another one of his followers. It was not clear why he was detained.

A senior U.S. official also said Saturday that investigators were studying video footage of Iraqis mutilating the bodies of four slain American civilians in Fallujah on Wednesday. The investigators are trying to identify people who took part.

The charred remains of the Americans were dragged through the streets for hours after insurgents ambushed their vehicles. Two corpses were hung from a bridge.

There was no sign of any U.S. military activity in the Fallujah area to suggest retaliatory action was imminent. U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer has said those who killed the four civilians and burned their bodies "will not go unpunished."

In another development, a bomb was discovered Saturday in a school in the western city of Ramadi, police said. The building was evacuated and U.S. and Iraqi security forces detonated the explosive device, shattering windows. A second bomb was found in a nearby school, but it was dismantled.
 

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posted by barman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
PHAEDRUS: I would also be interested to know if unofficial privatised military units (15,000 men according to another thread) are covered by the UN charter or the Geneva convention.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of all the people in the world for whom I might be mistaken, I can't believe it's eek -- twice in the last week no less.

Nothing against eek in particular mind you, his statist Orwellian socialist tendencies notwithstanding; just weird that of all people, he's my doppleganger.


Phaedrus
 

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American and Shotgun: how many Iraqis do you know who are in constant contact with Baghdad? No offense, guys, but I'll take the viewpoints of the people living there over CNN any day.

Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone, but they're not happy that the US is still there. Believe what you want, though.
 

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Lander,

Well done. I thought you would just let this go but I was wrong. In response to Israel's continued malfeasance against the Palestinians I would ask you to understand that their citizens are being killed by people who don't recognize any authority but their own. What are they supposed to do?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:You sound like the type of person that reasons his way through life.


I believe that's known as "intelligence". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What some call intelligence, others call cowardice.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ah, fuk it - the truth is that I don't give a fuk about you, and frankly I have more important shit to do that to hope to educate you on the essentials of truth and logic <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine. In my heart of hearts I wish that you would have to deal with some of these people and you could show the rest of us the proper way to negotiate with the terrorists. I sincerely would like to know where I'm erring if it can be done.

FWIW the others points weren't meant to bash you. I only wanted to know because I have perceptions about a lot of people and if what you said disproved that, I would be interested in knowing. I wasn't going to use it as ammunition.
 

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