when i get the time to play a round to myself i will take 2 mulligans a hole and see what i shoot. Id imagine it would be at the very worse a 66.
the tips are 7100, white plays 6300. big difference. im obviously being over confident about beating possibly the greatest golfer going right now. but 2 mulligans seems crazy considering i shoot between 74-80 without using any.
at some shitty public course with 2 mulligans id shoot 62 easily
the tips are 7100, white plays 6300. big difference. im obviously being over confident about beating possibly the greatest golfer going right now. but 2 mulligans seems crazy considering i shoot between 74-80 without using any.
at some shitty public course with 2 mulligans id shoot 62 easily
this^^. im a legit 9 handicap at a local club. 6400 yards from the whites. spieth would shoot mid 60s all day and every day here. there is a "real" club in a neighboring city. they play a web dot com event there. those guys were shooting 4-7 under so there is no telling what spieth would do there. i cant break 90 at that place. the rough is real, the greens are big, fast and can be set up in brutal pin locs. those guys play that every day. thats the kind of course that we wouldnt have a shot on imo.
Chaska Town course the local muni here has 6800 from tips and 5900 from whites with multiple Minnesota lakes. There are no miracle shots out of the water. That 900 yards is significant. All four par 5 are heavily guarded by water and woods. Without perfect tee shots I don't think they go for it in 2 especially on the back nine. There are two short par fours they could drive.....but if they don't score a two on those they wouldn't pick up any ground. They held part of the us amatuer open In conjunction with Hazeltine.
when you are getting mulligans the bad part of the course becomes a bigger problem for Spieth than the player because he gets to not play in the rough. The course played would obviously have an effect. I think my Hazeltine example favors the player over a short muni with no danger. Pro players hit bad shots too.....on an easy muni they can get away with it. On a tougher course the bad shot leads to higher numbers.
hno:Funny story. I have a sister that lives in California, so my other sister and I went out to visit her. She had set up a tee time at Pebble Beach many months in advance. I don't golf much and I hadn't played in like 10 years prior to that, I've only probably played 15-20 times in my life. We get to the first tee and I guess this is tradition at Pebble Beach where the Head Pro and some other guys come out and talk about the golf course and it's history and how golf is to be respected and you aren't allowed a mulligan on the first shot. Well I'm nervous as fuck and hating life because I don't play golf and now I've got like 10 people watching me hit my first shot.
I proceed to hit the ball off the toe of my driver and the ball ricochets off the tee marker off to the side of me and proceeds to end up life 30 yards behind me(how the fuck is that even possible) close to the practice putting green. So these guys are laughing there asses off, I'm embarrassed as fuck, and they say in this instant we're going to allow a mulligan on the first tee at Pebble Beach.
I proceed to hit the ball off the toe of my driver and the ball ricochets off the tee marker off to the side of me and proceeds to end up life 30 yards behind me(how the fuck is that even possible) close to the practice putting green. So these guys are laughing there asses off, I'm embarrassed as fuck, and they say in this instant we're going to allow a mulligan on the first tee at Pebble Beach.
The fact is that if any pro golfer played on the typical courses we all play daily, with no real rough, no hard bunkers, no crazy greens or pin placements ect they would absolutely light the place up every single day. At my city golf course most pros could drive 4 to maybe 5 of the par 4's, and if they didnt end up on the green they would be right next to it with no danger at all. All the par 5's would be driver that they could spray anywhere because it doesn't matter where it goes as long as its goes far, and then no more then a 7 iron into the green. And conversely I don't think some of you realize how much harder the courses they do play on are and if us local hacks had to play on them our scoring would go up atleast 10 shots more then normal. Like I said, I shot 89 at sawgrass at a time where I was regularly shooting 77-78 at my local course. This isn't a basketball court where they are all the same, the courses they play on don't compare in any way to the courses we all play on.
Let me break it down like this. I ran Maintenance at golf courses for about 15 years before I started my business. I have college degrees in Horticulture. I've been to TPC Sawgrass and Augusta National as well as other top notch golf courses. My little local hometown course that i've literally played 1000's of times isnt even a slightly the same as these courses pga players play. If you're a really good golfer that shoots 76-78 at your city of whatever the fuck golf course you wouldn't keep it under 95 at a real pga course set up the way the pga or USGA sets a course up. No fucking way. The yardage is only a small part of it.
The Sony open in Hawaii is generally regarded as one of the easier courses that pga players play. This year the winner of that tourney was -27 and just played safe on day 4. Spieth was -19 and shot 65, 67, 66. 63 in the 4 rounds, and that course is still miles harder then anything 99% of us play on any given weekend with our buddies. If Spieth comes and plays my local sandridge golf club he shoots under 60. No question in my mind. If me and Spieth are both standing 140 yards from the pin and i get 3 shots to his 1 then he probably puts his shot inside any of mine 75% of the time atleast, and i'm a decent golfer. You guys that think the extra distance is a huge advantage/ factor, its not. The 3 shots would be a much bigger advantage but it still wouldn't matter. He hits the ball alot further and straighter then any of us. The extra distance is basically negated after the drive and he is now standing in the fwy holding a higher numbered iron then we are. If it hit a ball 270 off the tee, he hits one 310 and now i'm holding a 7 iron into the green and he is holding a 9 iron.
The Sony open in Hawaii is generally regarded as one of the easier courses that pga players play. This year the winner of that tourney was -27 and just played safe on day 4. Spieth was -19 and shot 65, 67, 66. 63 in the 4 rounds, and that course is still miles harder then anything 99% of us play on any given weekend with our buddies. If Spieth comes and plays my local sandridge golf club he shoots under 60. No question in my mind. If me and Spieth are both standing 140 yards from the pin and i get 3 shots to his 1 then he probably puts his shot inside any of mine 75% of the time atleast, and i'm a decent golfer. You guys that think the extra distance is a huge advantage/ factor, its not. The 3 shots would be a much bigger advantage but it still wouldn't matter. He hits the ball alot further and straighter then any of us. The extra distance is basically negated after the drive and he is now standing in the fwy holding a higher numbered iron then we are. If it hit a ball 270 off the tee, he hits one 310 and now i'm holding a 7 iron into the green and he is holding a 9 iron.
I played the Chaska Town Course the day after the US Amateur Open was played their. They left the rough and pins in the exact same spot. I normally shot about 75 at the time. I think I shot closer to 90 that day....it was over 10 strokes harder. If you ended up in the rough...chipping it close was next to impossible...so instead of an up and down....it was taking me 3 shots and occasionally 4 shots. If you missed the fairways the ability to hit the greens was much more difficult. By the end of the day I was a beat down golfer and frustrated. But if I had 3 drives....on 14 holes....I most likely would not have been in the rough. If I had 3 shots at the green...once again I would not have a difficult chip that costs me a stroke.
The difficulty of course would effect the outcome. I think the harder the course the bigger the advantage to the golfer in many respects. If the rough is thick and a huge penalty....hitting 3 drives to having to live with just one drive....the advantage would be to the golfer. If the course has hazards that cost you for poor driving the....hitting 3 drives is advantageous. The weakest part of his game is his driving. He only hits 6 of 10 fairways.
If you are both sitting in the middle of the fairway and even close in yardage. He is going to have a higher number club and the advantage turns to him. On a longer course like I had stated where yardage difference is significant between the tips and the whites you might be hitting the same club....he just hits his 30 yards further. Now it is 3 shots to one. He is not going to hit it closer every time. How many times yesterday was he inside of 160 and was 50 feet or more from the pin? Quite a few.
His biggest strength is his putting. Nailed a long one for eagle and another long one for birdie yesterday. But also missed 3 fairly short ones. Getting 3 shots at every putt...that is pretty significant.
I still think a good example of what a score might be is a best ball tournament. My son has been a caddie at Hazeltine for 8 or 9 years. He has caddie in groups with Rich Beem (won at Hazeltine), Ben Crenshaw and Davis Love (when they came out to Hazeltine to scout the course for the Ryder Cup). When they have best ball tournaments at Hazeltine there are tons of teams that come in at 15-20 under par. Same course, same greens.....shorter length. Spieth would not walk into Hazeltine today from the tips and shot 59. A more realistic score would be 65-66 depending on the pins.
On the flip side if you go to a course down the road without alot of danger...then his score could go into the 50's. A course where all of the the par 5's are reachable in 2 (realistic score would be 6 under on those holes.....would assume he hits at least a decent drive, then he has to make either a good to great iron shot or a long putt....those are not guaranteed) and 4 of the par 4's are reachable (should be 4 under at worse). The par 3's are 180 to 210 from the tips with just sand in the front (what is realistic 2 under?). Leaves 6 non driveable par 4's probably driver 7 iron (maybe 4 under par). That is 16 under or 56. To shoot in the 50's on any course you still need to hit allot of quality shots. That didnt take into account many bad shots. Yank a drive or iron OB, end up in the water on a shot. If the our played an event their....someone would go real low. One guy on one day....no guarantee he shots that low no matter how good he is.
Just to further my point....Jordan plays a 9 hole par 3 course.....just for example he hits all of his irons to 6 feet.....that is way better than average.....he shots 6 under.
If all of the distances were 150-175 yards....Jordan lead the tour....average distance is 22 feet from the pin.....he shots 2 under.
You still have to make shots no matter how easy the course.
we have a mix of courses in my area of Florida of easy courses for old people and of high end courses with 1.4 million dollar maintenance budgets where the superintendent makes 125k to 350k. Two of my area courses have held several US open sectionals, mid ams and other pretty big events. When I play those courses my score is an easy 8-10 shots higher then when I play my local course. And neither of those courses are close to as difficult as a PGA setup course. Like I said, Spieth played one of the medium hard courses in my area and just destroyed it while goofing off in a charity event like 2 years ago. You put a guy like that on my city course where I can shoot 75-76 and he breaks 60 on most days. I'd agree that having 3 putts is probably the biggest advantage but I still don't think it would matter in the end. Not unless we have some really really good, close to scratch golfers in this thread.
you have to realize this too. when you look up a stat that says Spieth puts it an average of 12.1 foot from the hole on a 125 yard shot, that is taking all of those 125 yard shots into account. And in alot of those he isn't trying to hit it dead nut at the pin. These guys place shots in certain spots on the green. If you just throw a pin out in the middle of a flat green and tell him to hit it as close as possible then he would hit most 125 yard shots within 8 foot or so. I'm a fairly decent golfer and if you gave me 3 shots I probably don't stick it inside 8 feet that often. Maybe 12-15 foot or so
thats the thing. our local clubs greens arent as undulating and large as most they play on tour. not to mention the speed they play on. just bc we hit a green on one or even two of our three mulligans doesnt mean weve put it in the correct spot on the green to make the putt, even given three tries. not sure if this is even being taken into consideration. on a flat green with little danger like most golf/country clubs he is getting it close on nearly every hole. on a tour course with large, undulating greens we have to hit a lot better iron shots than we normally do.
Putting a ball in the right spot is helpful.....for sure. The pro has that advantage. Putting on fast greens I think is actually easier......you only have to make a small stoke....when the greens are slow you have to make a longer stroke and it increase the amount of error.
The weaker the golfer the less likely they would win. I could give a 20+ handicap 5 shots from 175 yards out and he may still not touch a green. A weak golfer would not win on something like this.
The stronger the golfer the more the mulligans become an advantage. A stronger golfer should always be hitting from the fairway....should always be hitting the green....to be able to hit a putt and get a read is huge.....should not leave a putt short because he gets multiple attempts at a making the come back putt.
I think the more difficult the course and a strong golfer....the mulligans become even more of an advantage. I also disagree with the notion that length white tees to tips does not make that much difference. Jordan's average drive is close to 300 yards. If a good stick goes 270 and Spieth is 80 yard back on the tee.....he is basically spotting the player 50 yards....player should be in fairway....and 40 percent of the time Spieth is in the rough. That is a pretty big spot going into the second shot.
As stated before the assumption is Spieth hits all of his shots great which he doesn't. I was a little surprised by his tour stats. From 150 to 175 he averages 22 feet from the hole when hitting from the fairway which he hits 6/10 times. The other four he is in the rough. From there he averages 44 feet from the pin. Just as a reference point....that great eagle was a bomb putt.....from 45 feet....he isn't converting those to birdie most of the time.
The weaker the golfer the less likely they would win. I could give a 20+ handicap 5 shots from 175 yards out and he may still not touch a green. A weak golfer would not win on something like this.
The stronger the golfer the more the mulligans become an advantage. A stronger golfer should always be hitting from the fairway....should always be hitting the green....to be able to hit a putt and get a read is huge.....should not leave a putt short because he gets multiple attempts at a making the come back putt.
I think the more difficult the course and a strong golfer....the mulligans become even more of an advantage. I also disagree with the notion that length white tees to tips does not make that much difference. Jordan's average drive is close to 300 yards. If a good stick goes 270 and Spieth is 80 yard back on the tee.....he is basically spotting the player 50 yards....player should be in fairway....and 40 percent of the time Spieth is in the rough. That is a pretty big spot going into the second shot.
As stated before the assumption is Spieth hits all of his shots great which he doesn't. I was a little surprised by his tour stats. From 150 to 175 he averages 22 feet from the hole when hitting from the fairway which he hits 6/10 times. The other four he is in the rough. From there he averages 44 feet from the pin. Just as a reference point....that great eagle was a bomb putt.....from 45 feet....he isn't converting those to birdie most of the time.
Also your average fwy width on a pga course is 25-30 yards wide. Most goat track local courses are like 50 yards wide. Spieth's 6/10 fwys hit would go way way up on a local muni course. If you have ever been to a pga event and watched these guys hit golf balls its amazing to see. Sure, once on a while they hit a bad shot. The almost never hit a terrible shot. and 95% of their iron shots are within a few yards of where they wanted it to be. I again go to the point of he just shot 4 rounds in the 60's on a golf course that us average golfers probably would've been lucky to break 100 on. I just dont see those 2 extra shots being able to take off 30 of more shots off a golfers score. How many times over the course of 18 holes will not one of those 3 shots end up in really good position? i'm guessing alot more often then Spieth would with his 1 ball. Again, unless there are some real players in this thread.
I have been to many PGA events and also attended the Ryder Cup this last fall.....which if you have never done....put it on your bucket list if you are a big golf fan.
I am amazed at how many great shots they hit and how long some of the players are off the tee. One event we were at I commented to my son we had not seen any really bad shots and we had been there for 8 hours. Two seconds later Sergio hit one over my head into the woods.
Assume a guy is a good stick and normally shoots 78. Those 6 shots above par might come from just 3 or 4 bad shots in the round. An OB or yanking an iron or two. Getting to take those out of play brings that person down to scratch. Making a few other shots better brings it down further.....holing a few more putts even further. It will be interesting to hear what the poster who said he was going to play a round and see how much his score improved. With 3 mulligan for a good stick....it is just a matter of how low the score would be. The question would be if the iron shot is now at 15 feet versus 25 feet.....with three putts would he make enough of them to improve his score significantly (two putting from 25 feet or 2 putting from 15 feet didnt really help the golfer).
What I think you are missing is that every shot they hit are not great. Just look at the British Open on Sunday....no way in hell were 95% of Jordan iron shots where he wanted to be....on 18 holes that would be 17 iron shots out of 18 shots. Also just like the average guy the pro can miss a 3 foot putt.
On an easy dog track....the average Joe's ability to keep pace or pass the pro becomes more difficult. You have used the argument about how much tougher the PGA course is and how much worse a players score would be. Of course any harder course your score goes up....but with mulligans it should go down if you have any kind of stick. You are also not taking into account the yardage difference. You seem to discount this like it is no big deal. It is a big deal for the pros and a big deal for average Joe. In fact it is the number one reason the players with distance have dominated in golf. It has been this way for quite some time and it will be in the future. (Jordan on of the few to not fall in this category). Sounds to me like the rationale that size doesnt matter.
The best comparison of what a golfer would be to score would be is a best ball scramble that every golfer has played in. So the question is if at Hazeltine using best ball team from the white tees and they can shoot 10 under (which a group of single digits can and do all the time) can Jordan do that from the tips on the same day? Could but I say doubtful on almost all days. Put a bunch of 20 handicap golfers together....Jordan kicks their ass because they dont have the ability to hit enough good/great shots. Tell me your argument why Jordan would win. My example I am using a championship course.
