WHY?????? (an olive branch)

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Game

No response, but soon you will be spouting about
some other bs and the scenario will repeat. Somebody
will challenge you, you will call them "liberal" or
"unreasonable," or "hopeless" and not respond with any facts
or reasons. Then you will completely ignore
them. It is getting quite boring. Not difficult to
understand why some posters refuse to debate
with you.
 

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Here you go stacilu:

Reflecting On Reagan's Life and Accomplishments
By Andrew Coffin
Santa Barbara News Press, February 6, 2001

On the occasion of Ronald Reagan's 90th birthday, the nation might do well to reflect on his life and accomplishments. After all, Reagan has, in recent years, achieved a lionized status -- particularly among conservatives.

But Reagan's admirers are not limited to the far-right faithful. The former president fares extremely well among the American public, achieving a 78 percent overall approval rating in a recent Gallup poll. Perhaps more significantly, Reagan is also steadily gaining respect among academics and historians, the same classes who scoffed at his economic and Cold War policies in the 1980s.
Last year two lists ranking the presidents, one compiled by C-SPAN, the other by The Wall Street Journal, placed Reagan near the top of the presidential heap, at 11th and 8th respectively. This puts Reagan in the "near great" category on the Journal's list.

Both of these rankings mark a major shift from Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s widely known 1996 ranking of the presidents, which placed Reagan in 25th place.

In contrast, Bill Clinton fell right in the middle on both of the lists, ranked at 21 by C-SPAN's historians, and at 24 by the Journal's panel, which placed Clinton in the "average" category. He has the lowest ranking of any two-term president aside from Ulysses Grant.

What accounts for this disparity? Both are two-term presidents of the modern era, but why does one find Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt as his peers, while the other takes his place with Martin Van Buren and Chester Arthur?

There are fundamental differences between Clinton and Reagan that make the latter one of this nation's greatest leaders, and the other doomed to be remembered in a much different light.

These differences run much deeper than divergent political philosophies. Although perhaps too commonplace a refrain in a post-Lewinsky world to be said with much effect, the greatness of a president is a question of character, not politics.

Clinton's character is well known; no good is done by yet again slogging through the scandals and failures of his eight years in office. It is far better to focus on the positive example, to look at the characteristics that made a great leader great. Three stand out.

Reagan's presidency -- and Reagan's life -- is characterized by principle. Without exception, for Reagan, politics fell second to principle. Reagan wasn't naive -- he knew that he was elected to a political office and knew how to win over enemies and strengthen the resolve of friends. But he knew too that only principles are enduring, as political questions fade into obscurity and irrelevance.

A commitment to principle characterized, for example, President Reagan's dealings with the Soviet Union. He knew he went to the summit talks with Mikhail Gorbachev not only representing the political interests of a nation, but also the principles on which a nation was founded.

Jack Kemp, a key ally in Reagan's early tax cuts, described Reagan's approach this way: "Most politicians talk about policies and the changing issues of the day. Ronald Reagan talked about principles -- deeply held beliefs ... Policies shift with the breeze of public opinion, but principles are anchors, even in a storm."

A president must be an anchor for the nation; a president without steadfast principles is no anchor, and in the long run does no great service to his country.

President Reagan's life and political career demonstrated too that he was a man of honor. He is the product of Midwestern values, honed in the Depression: honest, hardworking, fair -- and committed to his religious faith.

It is the combination of a strong work ethic (disbelieved by a skeptical press but common knowledge among his friends and associates) with a solid value system that helped place Reagan among the great figures in American history. His faith was not the watered-down, publicly acceptable version of evangelicalism professed by many politicians today, but a true expression of heartfelt belief.

"When our struggle seems hard," said Reagan in 1981, "remember what Eric Liddell, Scotland's Olympic champion runner, said in 'Chariots of Fire.' He said, 'So where does the power come from to see the race to its end? From within. God made me for a purpose, and I will run for his pleasure.' If we trust Him, keep His word, and live for His pleasure, He'll give us the power we need -- power to fight the good fight, to finish the race, and to keep the faith."

The public face of Reagan's principled, honorable life is his undying sense of optimism -- of the three qualities mentioned, perhaps the one for which his was most often mocked. Yet, with what many mistook as naïveté, Reagan was able, in the face of adversity, to communicate a hopefulness and resolve that inspired others.
The way he approached his own life was the same way he approached the life of the nation. When America struggled through a recession in the early '80's, or faced such national tragedies as the Challenger explosion, Reagan was not a leader who merely responded with weak words of sympathy or tear in his eye.

He didn't lack compassion; on the contrary, he was compassionate enough to point the nation to higher ideals, a greater good that transcends immediate hardship.

"My optimism comes not just from my strong faith in God," Reagan once said, "but from my strong and enduring faith in man."

Greatness. It is, without a doubt, a question of character -- it cannot be measured in economic or political currency. Reagan, in giving a charge to the graduating class of the Citadel in 1993, in his own words best encapsulates the thing that separates him from other modern presidents: "The character that takes command in moments of crucial choices has already been determined by a thousand other choices made earlier in the seemingly unimportant moments ... It has been determined by all the day-to-day decisions made when life seemed easy and crises seemed far away -- the decisions that, piece by piece, bit by bit, developed habits of discipline or of laziness; habits of self-sacrifice or self-indulgence; habits of duty and honor and integrity -- or dishonor and shame.

Try to imagine those words coming from the mouth of an "average" president, like Bill Clinton. It's not easy.


(MY own 2 cents on President Reagan):
Revived the economy and spirit of this nation after the Carter :increible years
Rebuilt our military and defense which were crucial to winning the cold war
Stood up to the Soviet Union, but avoided WWIII
His economic policy i.e. TAX CUTS worked!!!
 

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Wil, simple question: Who did you support for President in 1992 and 1996?
 

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Wil, simple question: Who did you support for President in 1992 and 1996?
Volitan - To be absolutely honest I didn't really care or even think about either the 92 or 96 campaigns. I was living overseas (as I am now) and didn't get involved in any way, I supported no one. I do now however feel very disgusted by Dubya because of his behavior in the late 60's. I am the same age (give or take 6 months) and had to do what was right for a young American at that time which was fight for my country in a foreign war. I know Clinton didn't join the service but he has never claimed to be any sort of soldier and the issue never really survaced much during his presidency. What did your hero GWB do for his country in 1968 while I was fighting in Asian jungles? I have been honest now please return the favor.


wil.
 

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Voltitan

At least a response and a response that is fair and able
to be debated.

I will grant you and the world that RR was a likeable guy
and probably a pretty moral guy also. No, a very moral
guy is closer to the truth. Everybody, likes their
leader to be a moral guy, I would think. However, if
I had to choose between moral and competent I believe
I would have to choose the latter. I mean I agree Clinton
was a scum ball morally. But, his personal life is personal.
He was incredibly intelligent, always had the facts right
and had them memorized. If you want to talk about immorality
we can all talk about Tricky Dicky, correct.

Now my opinion and some other editorialists about RR.
If we grant that he was a moral guy he must have been
at least a little myopic concerning these beliefs considering
his inaction about the AIDS crisis.

The cold war wasn't won by RR. This is such an
over simplification. Every president since Ike gave
the USSR significant headaches. The USSR was
consistently spending over 50% of GNP on weapons
and weapon defense, it was a country ripe for
collapse. You must remember that we spend about
30% and yet in real dollars it was still much more than
the Soviet Union could. Added to this tremendous expense it was
aiding Cuba with millions and trying to hold an empire
together with glue and scotch tape. No calling the
USSR an "evil empire," would certainly not cause it to collapse.

Why do people conveniently forget about the scandals
of this administration? The Iran contra operations came close
to or in some opinions an aggrevious violation of law. Added
to this insult it was involving a country that recently
embarassed the US. The savings and loan scandal was
one of the costliest scandals in history.

Our economy suffered a recession and a stock market crash, he recorded
deficits that are only surpassed by our present king.

And finally, even if some people believe this was a blessing,
he broke the air trafic controllers union, and many people
believe this was just the beginning of the end of workers rights in America. Could be one of the reasons the minimum wage is so embarassing. Many single women trying to live with this humiliating salary. In the richest nation in the world it is a travesty.

He also had a tendency to make up human interest stories.
These stories, always interesting, made his political point
but, unfortunately they were not always true.

Thanks for your input, at least you answer the question.
 

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Wil,
First, thank you for your service to our country. I served in the USMC (active duty) from 1992 (right before the Bush defeat, don't think I would have joined under slick willie)-1996. IRR 96-2000. Did 2 tours on Okinawa at Camp Schwab, a place you may have visited either on your way to or from Vietnam...I don't know. Bush is not my "hero". Do I support him for President? yes, did I vote for him in 2000?,yes, do I think his policies over another 4 yr term would be better than Kerry's, yes!
Bush during the 60's: Bush got into the TX Air National Guard. Was it because his dad was a Congressman??? maybe, you remember that time better than me (I was 1yr old in 69) so apparently people avoided HAVING to go to Vietnam if they could. Howard Dean, Clinton, Cheney, Bush, Chris Matthews...the thing is that if you were privledged you still usually got a choice assignment even if you went. Al Gore (son of a Senator) went, but he was a reporter and not near combat from what I understand. To me the issue of Bush in the 60's is less relevant than what he or Kerry will do as President over the next 4 yrs.
Believe it or not, I think from a miltary operation standpoint the early part of the war went fairly well from a speed and swift initital military victory, but the aftermath has been less than stellar. We didn't anticipate the number of insurgents crossing into Iraq, we didn't anticipate the widespread resistance and use of IED's etc.. I would tend to blame Rumsfeld for pushing the smaller, lighter force(too much use of reserve and guard units) aspect and the CIA and other intell people for thinking Saddam still had WMD and that once the regime fell then it would be a cakewalk. Hey, nothing hardly ever goes according to plan in a war or military operation. The point is that we are there and I think Bush is more committed to seeing it through than Kerry. No war is easy and without casualties. Now is not the time to cut and run. The insurgents in Iraq are trying to use the Mogadishu playbook and hope Kerry gets elected and we cut and run. I hate it too, but I don't think Bush "LIED" to start a war. You see what political price he is paying now. He was wary of another 9/11 from WMD that he thought Saddam might give to Al-Quada etc... He may lose the election because of that, but that is what he thought IMO. I really don't think some people on this board realize that we are at war with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who hate western civ (America mainly) and the ideals and principals it stands for. They do not want freedom and democracy in the middle east, they want radical islamic states, nuclear weapons and the destruction of Israel just to name a few things. Anyway, this is getting to long, hope I explained some things Wil. So you never liked Clinton for the same reasons you didn't like Bush huh? I think the issue did surface. If you were out of the country then you missed it. I remember Ted Koppel grilling Clinton on nightline about the very letter I posted. Thanks again for serving when you did.
 

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stacilu said:
Judge and all


Arrogant and stupid very bad combo. He will not be able to make
wise decisions because he is surrounded by people only concerned
with their own welfare and the welfare of the privileged.

Ego

Do you really think it is only the "libs," that are angry.
If that was true this election wouldn't be as close as
it is. Many more voters than just the "libs," whatever
the hell that means.

stacilu,
imo, if the anger was that widespread, he'd be losing in a landslide right now. i am a republican, but i don't always vote that way. But, the 9 the Democrats fielded in the primary were a very weak field. The only one I'd be willing to vote for was Lieberman, but he wasn't far enough left to win the nomination. The Democratic party has changed drastically since '92, when Bill Clinton, a man slightly left of center won the nomination.
 

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lander said:
I thought Dum Dum was the one that was making faces and scowling?? Seemed a bit angry for somebody that had four years to practice being "presidential."

Oh, and the mis-guided Swift Boaters -- they're not an angry group?

C'mmon, I know Rove thought it was clever to make clowns like you say that Dean was "too angry" ... but isn't about time you stopped sucking on Papa Rove's nipples and fed your yourself the truth?

I agree with your assesment of the debate. Kery won the 1st hands down. the 2nd was Kerry slightly, but the 3rd was pretty even, but the Kerry remarks about Cheney's daughter (which I personally didn't find offensive) is the lasting impression. The comments Edwards wife made about the Cheney family was far more nasty.

As far as the Swiftboaters go, I don't even see them as a factor, though others might disagree. Kerry was in Vietnam and Bush was in Alabama. Nuff said.
 

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GAMEFACE said:
Ego,

Liberals hated Reagan also and history will judge Reagan as one of Americas best ever.

The GOP will be hard pressed to ever field anyone close to Ronald Reagan. A great American.
 

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VOLTITAN said:
Wil, I guess you voted for W's dad and Dole then huh? We all know Slick Wille's actions during the Vietnam war.

From Clinton's ROTC Letter (not entire letter)
As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5550) 7/30/93
Dear Col. Holmes,
I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing,about what I want to and ought to say.
First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been.

I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations October 15 and November 16.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong.

After I signed the ROTC letter of intent I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program itself and all I seem to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I had begun to think that I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all of the things I'm telling you now.

Finally, on September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, :rolleyes: but I did carry it with me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of the second year of my Rhodes scholarship.

I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes and the best service you could give.


Vietnam was a war many loathed, especially because of the draft. I don't think it should've mattered. In 30 years, someone will come along to run for President who currently loathes the Iraq War.
The President underestimated our military and the postwar planning left a lot to be desired. I find it hard to argue with the other side when they say " Bush doesn't have a plan."
It looks that way sometimes. I hope we can get the Iraqi military trained as soon as possible, so they can defend their own country. We gave them their freedom, it should be up to them to defend it.
 

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wilheim said:
Reagan will be judged by history as a fair actor and miserable president.

wil.

Reagan left the country in a lot better shape than he inherited it. That's not a knock on Jimmy Carter, that's a fact. This country could hardly be considered a Superpower in 1980.
 

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I want to say thanks to the response to my post. On November 2nd, no matter who wins this election, it's gonna be a crucial 4 yr period for our country. Like i said before, if it's Kerry, I will stand behind him for the good of the USA and hope he makes the right decisions. Hopefully if this comes to fruition, Congress will do the same. If this partisanship continues for another 4 yrs, Yes we will be attacked againand we will be at war with more than Al Queda:
We're all Americans first. Many of us have children. In my case, a 3 yr old. I want this country to be in better shape in 15 yrs than it is now. If we keep going down this same road, our kids lives will be a lot worse than ours have been.
 

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Ego


I am forced to agree with you about the weak field.
I believe Kerry to be an honorable man, but he just
seems to lack something that the people can hold
on to. However, I think the opposing side is
despicable. I believe they are stealing our
freedoms and they care not about the average
citizen. They are fully indebted to the elite one per
cent minority and arrogantly follow that agenda.
I cannot ever see them following a political path
that would be decent and fair to hard working
Americans. IMO, they have many good people
believing the exact opposite. To paraphrase,
they are close to creating magic because they
represent 1% of the people and consistently get
50% of the vote.
 

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Staciloopi,

Why would I waste my time explaining to you why I believe Reagan was a great President when you believe someone like Carter was a great President. It's complete total waste of my time. Most reasonable people know what Reagan accomplished.
 

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First of all I do not believe Carter was a great president.
Where did you get that? If you find that I said that
anywhere at all please show it to me. No, the
real reason is you can't defend Reagan is you
don't know anything positve to defend him with.
I asked you about your sources, where do you
get your info. No response, I wonder why?
Could it be because you don't have any sources
and it just comes from what you think to be true.
 

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wilheim said:
Bush chose to run from his duty and hide in the National Guard while more than 50,000 young Americans were being killed in a needless war. He used political influence to shirk his duty - bottom line thats a coward in my book no matter how unpopular the war.




wil.
So I am assuming you didn't vote for Clinton too?
 

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Truthteller try reading the whole thread

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<HR style="COLOR: #fdde82" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Wil, simple question: Who did you support for President in 1992 and 1996?
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Quote:
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Volitan - To be absolutely honest I didn't really care or even think about either the 92 or 96 campaigns. I was living overseas (as I am now) and didn't get involved in any way, I supported no one. I do now however feel very disgusted by Dubya because of his behavior in the late 60's. I am the same age (give or take 6 months) and had to do what was right for a young American at that time which was fight for my country in a foreign war. I know Clinton didn't join the service but he has never claimed to be any sort of soldier and the issue never really survaced much during his presidency. What did your hero GWB do for his country in 1968 while I was fighting in Asian jungles? I have been honest now please return the favor.


wil.
<!-- / message -->
 

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