What if America Just Quit the Middle East?

Search

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
by John V. Whitbeck
The International Herald-Tribune

JIDDA, Saudi Arabia With the latest American "peace plan" joining its predecessors in history's trash heap, the time may be ripe for a radical re-evaluation of the American role in the search for Middle East peace.
.
In June, the respected Pew Research Center released the latest of its global opinion surveys, which polled more than 15,000 people in 21 countries in the wake of the invasion and conquest of Iraq. A primary focus of press reports was the surge of anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world. In traditionally pro-American Jordan, 97 percent of those polled opposed America's "war on terror," while in NATO-member Turkey, 83 percent expressed an unfavorable opinion of the United States.
.
Less noticed, but no less significant, were the responses to another question. Those polled were asked whether the United States is too supportive of Israel. In 20 of the 21 countries surveyed (notably including Israel), most of those polled said "yes." There is no prize for guessing the one country where most said "no."
.
Israeli support for this proposition should not come as a complete surprise. Israelis have to live in Israel/Palestine. While their lives since Ariel Sharon provoked the current intifada in September 2000 have not been the living hell experienced by Palestinians, they have still become unpleasant, insecure and stressful. Increasingly, the essential realization that occupation and security are mutually exclusive has been sinking in.
.
No American national interest is served by Israel's continuing occupation of the Arab lands, which it conquered in 1967. American supporters of the occupation tend to be Christian fundamentalists concerned about being personally "raptured" up to heaven after the much-to-be-hoped-for battle of Armageddon, Jews who feel personally guilty for living prosperously and comfortably in America rather than having emigrated to Israel, or politicians interested only in preserving or furthering their personal careers by not offending the other two groups.
.
Americans in these three groups, which are critical to the formulation of American Middle East policy, do not have to suffer the consequences of the occupation or the resistance to it, and their support for the occupation rarely reflects any genuine concern for the best interests of Israelis (let alone Palestininians). Their militant "pro-Israel" activism is purely self-centered and selfish in its motivation. It is also the primary obstacle to peace.
.
Those Israelis who feel that America is too supportive of Israel presumably can see that America's involvement since 1967 has not advanced the cause of peace but, rather, has blocked it, with America's periodic pretenses of peacemaking simply providing an "only game in town" cover behind which the occupation could be perpetuated, deepened and made more nearly irreversible. They presumably wish, for their own sakes, that America would "reform."
.
Now - a heretical thought. Virtually all governments and commentators agree, at least in their public pronouncements, that deeper engagement by the United States is essential if Israeli-Palestinian peace is ever to be achieved. Wrong. The best hope for peace would be total American disengagement - and the sooner the better.
.
Imagine that the U.S. government were to announce that it was washing its hands of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that it would no longer give any military, economic or diplomatic aid or support to either side and that it would no longer use its veto to block any UN Security Council resolution with respect to Israel, even one imposing sanctions on either or both of the parties to the conflict. Having never been an "honest broker," the United States would at least become an honest bystander.
.
Israeli politicians and American Christian fundamentalists would be appalled. However, if the Pew poll is to be believed, many Israelis would be relieved - and finally see light at the end of the tunnel. With the United States out of the picture, the occupation would become, and be recognized to be, unsustainable. The great boulder blocking the road to peace would have rolled itself out of the way, and the real road to peace (not to be confused with the "road map") could finally be open for travel.
.
As a hugely beneficial side-effect, American disengagement would, with immediate effect, diminish anti-American rage throughout the Muslim world. Hundreds of billions of dollars could be redirected in constructive ways that would actually enhance the quality of life of Americans. The United States might even become respected abroad out of admiration, as it once was, rather than simply out of fear, as it now is.
.
A dream? Of course. Just a dream. America will continue to block the road to peace, and America - and the world - will continue to pay a massive price for this.

[This message was edited by Phaedrus on October 04, 2003 at 04:52 AM.]
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,729
Tokens
Thats right. There was complete peace in the region until Israel occupied the lands in 1967. Why the hell was there a war in 1967 if the only problem is occupation? Genius.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
At no point in the article does Whitbeck claim that there was peace prior to 1967. If you study the history of the war, you will see that Israel was in fact provoked by Egypt, and left in a position where they could stay on continuous alert -- which would be ruinous to the Israeli economy due to the reserve nature of their military -- or attempt to force a battle.

There is no question in my own mind that Israel's pre-emtpive attack in '67 was justified; however like Whitbeck above and numerous other people I do not feel that the Israeli occupation of lands seized in that conflict is a just, moral or smart thing for them to do -- and more germane to the topic of the post, it serves absolutely no legitimate American interest for us to continue to prop up Israel in the manner that we have done for so many decades.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,729
Tokens
"At no point in the article does Whitbeck claim that there was peace prior to 1967."

Thats good, because otherwise he would be a complete liar besides being stupid. If there was no peace then, on what basis does anyone believe there will be now? Pure wishful thinking, as always.

"The great boulder blocking the road to peace would have rolled itself out of the way, and the real road to peace (not to be confused with the "road map") could finally be open for travel."

Of course, the rejecetion of the legitimacy of the State of Israel to exist by virtually the entire Arab world is not a 'great boulder blocking the road to peace.' Nope, its the occupation.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
2,228
Tokens
The parallels between Israel/middle east and South Vietnam/S E Asia are pretty amazing.


The US has sent bucketloads of troops to the region and barely anyone wants to help.

The troops are there, know its dumb, and want to come home.

It (Israel) would be hopelessly bankrupt in a few years without constant US cash injections.

It has a huge distorted military, way beyond its neighbours, and supplied by the US.

It is in constant conflict with its neighbours, and there is no end in sight.


Another poster suggested nuking the entire area so that it was uninhabitable.
This is still the most solid roadmap to peace in the region that I have come across.

The only alternative is to cut Israel loose.
Then they will be forced to compromise and fit in.
Alternatively they can reduce the region to a pile of nuclear rubble.

Either way, it would happen within a couple of decades.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
posted by Igetp2s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If there was no peace [prior to 1967] on what basis does anyone believe there will be now? Pure wishful thinking, as always.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you feel that there simply is no hope for peace in the Middle East?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Of course, the rejecetion of the legitimacy of the State of Israel to exist by virtually the entire Arab world is not a 'great boulder blocking the road to peace.' Nope, its the occupation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no legitimacy to the Israeli state. A sickening and sycophantic political maneuver granted them land which just happened to be occupied by someone else at the time. Despite this, Israel expanded into further 'historic borders,' an action which if you will recall most of the rest of the world looked on with disfavour when it was taken by Hitler in the 1930's and Hussein in the 1980's.

My primary concern, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Israel can get along with its Arab neighbours or vice versa. My concern is for the enormous waste of my own country in propping up this little troll of a nation for more than fifty years, which has only harmed our national interest, not helped it.

As far as a peace process goes, I understand that it is quite possibly the worst situation imaginable for Israel, as a small nation completely surrounded by hostile neighbours, but they didn't have to go there. A Jewish home state could have been created anywhere in the world; they could have followed the Grand Island plan and had an autonomous home within U.S. borders. As much as the Israelis have undeniably acheived in the last five decades, imagine what they could have done when not being attacked or threatened with attack on all sides the whole time. But no, they wanted to go to what they erroneously claim is "rightfully theirs." So why the fvcking suprise at the hostility from the Arab world is anybody's best guess.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
1,729
Tokens
"Do you feel that there simply is no hope for peace in the Middle East? "

Based on the current environment, no I do not.

"There is no legitimacy to the Israeli state."

And that is exactly why. Thats not exactly a surprise. Pretending as if your only frustration is the occupation of the West Bank. Now the real truth comes out.

"But no, they wanted to go to what they erroneously claim is "rightfully theirs." So why the fvcking suprise at the hostility from the Arab world is anybody's best guess."

Whos land is it?
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
3,447
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phaedrus:
posted by Igetp2s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If there was no peace [prior to 1967] on what basis does anyone believe there will be now? Pure wishful thinking, as always.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you feel that there simply is no hope for peace in the Middle East?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Of course, the rejecetion of the legitimacy of the State of Israel to exist by virtually the entire Arab world is not a 'great boulder blocking the road to peace.' Nope, its the occupation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no legitimacy to the Israeli state. A sickening and sycophantic political maneuver granted them land which just happened to be occupied by someone else at the time. Despite this, Israel expanded into further 'historic borders,' an action which if you will recall most of the rest of the world looked on with disfavour when it was taken by Hitler in the 1930's and Hussein in the 1980's.

My primary concern, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Israel can get along with its Arab neighbours or vice versa. My concern is for the enormous waste of my own country in propping up this little troll of a nation for more than fifty years, which has only harmed our national interest, not helped it.

As far as a peace process goes, I understand that it is quite possibly the worst situation imaginable for Israel, as a small nation completely surrounded by hostile neighbours, but they _didn't have to go there._ A Jewish home state could have been created anywhere in the world; they could have followed the Grand Island plan and had an autonomous home within U.S. borders. As much as the Israelis have undeniably acheived in the last five decades, imagine what they could have done when not being attacked or threatened with attack on all sides the whole time. But no, they wanted to go to what they erroneously claim is "rightfully theirs." So why the fvcking suprise at the hostility from the Arab world is anybody's best guess.


Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, you truly are ignorant. Israel was attacked and then when the beat the crap out of the attackers they WON the land. You think any arab would just GIVE up land that is theirs? No , they lost. Now anti-semites like you are trying to revise history. Luckily, americans are dumb enough to believe your BS.

By the way, you think america was always occupied by americans? nope, this was all native american land. AMericans stole it from them. This is the case in every nation in the world. Can anyone really prove that thepeople of their country were the first and only occupier of their country? of course not.

So please remove your head from your arse and read a history book. Of course, i am presuming you can read, which could be a stretch.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
posted by Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you feel that there simply is no hope for peace in the Middle East?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

posted by Igetp2s
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Based on the current environment, no I do not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a shame. You may of course be right; I have always thought that there might be some salvation for both sides of the equation, but I'm damned if I could ever figure out what that might be. Just as relatively few Israelis are Zionist supremacists, relatively few Palestinians are crazed jihadists -- one would think that the people getting senselessly killed on both sides could figure out some workaround that did not involve the genocidal maniacs in power.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
posted by Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There is no legitimacy to the Israeli state.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

posted by Igetp2s
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And that is exactly why. Thats not exactly a surprise. Pretending as if your only frustration is the occupation of the West Bank. Now the real truth comes out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My personal feelings about the legitimacy or lack therof of the Israeli state have nothing to do with the fact that pulling out of the West Bank would be a very good start to ending the war between Israelis and Arabs. Don't get me wrong -- I do not think that the problem would actually abate very much if Israel pulled out; however, if they pulled out and hostilities (especially terrorist attacks, or another run-up as was seen in 1967) continued, then Israel would have a legitimate diplomatic complaint and could possibly justify using the formdiable arsenal with which the US has been so kind to provide it.

I am a realist, and I understand that my (certainly not only my of course) belief that the Israeli state lacks standing does not change the fact that it exists. There are all kinds of things in the world of which I disapprove, but which nonetheless are. But if Israel were to extend the olive branch, so to speak, only to be spat upon by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world, then stronger measures (Possibly including the use of international forces) would be justified. Everybody talks about peace in the Middle East; no one does anything about it. The pissing contest has to end at some point; it would be a shame if the only way to end it would be for one side to finally run out of warm bodies, given the fact that the Israelis are substantially outnumbered by the Arabs.

posted by primetime21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
wow, you truly are ignorant.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would strongly suggest that this is not so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Israel was attacked and then when the beat the crap out of the attackers they WON the land. You think any arab would just GIVE up land that is theirs?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recommend you acquaint yourself with history.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Now anti-semites like you are trying to revise history.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am often accused of being anti-Semitic, an odd aberration in light of the fact that I converted to Judaism some time ago and was married into a Jewsih family and very active in the sizable Jewish community in the Washington, D.C. area. You would be suprised just how many Jewish people share views similar to mine, my position on the lack of legitimacy of the Israeli state notwithstanding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Luckily, americans are dumb enough to believe your BS.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had no idea I wielded so much influence over American beliefs ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
By the way, you think america was always occupied by americans? [etc]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A tired argument always used from a clueless standpoint. If the American occupation of Native American lands is such an abhorrent thing, then why is the Israeli occupation of Arab lands not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So please remove your head from your arse and read a history book. Of course, i am presuming you can read, which could be a stretch.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been trying to make it a point to just ignore pointless ad hominem attacks lately, and it's been working pretty well. But for the record, I lack both the flexibility and sphincter conditioning required to place my own head into my rectum, I am certain that you would benefit from some history lessons far more than I, and my response is surely proof that I have at least to some extent developed the ability to read and write.


Phaedrus
 

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
75,154
Tokens
one_a_day.jpg
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
3,447
Tokens
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A tired argument always used from a clueless standpoint. If the American occupation of Native American lands is such an abhorrent thing, then why is the Israeli occupation of Arab lands not?
Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is were you come off as a moron. My point is that no one is calling for america to give back the land. And they shouldn't. but since america can do it, why can't israel? because they are jewish?


youre can't hide youre true reasoning.
 

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2004
Messages
5,398
Tokens
posted by primetime21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This is were you come off as a moron. My point is that no one is calling for america to give back the land. And they shouldn't. but since america can do it, why can't israel? because they are jewish?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand what you're saying. My point is that one injustice does not sanction another. This stance strikes you as moronic?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
youre can't hide youre true reasoning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have made no attempt to hide my reasoning; I think that you simply do not see it and would rather go the zero-effort, default route of calling me a racist because I disapprove of the murder of Palestinians. As I have stated before over and over again, I also disapprove of the murder of Israelis ... and for that matter Native Americans, Vanuatuans, Nicaraguans, etc.

It is the most supremely racist view imaginable to consider that past examples of racism against a given people empower that people and make them unaccountable in the present.


Phaedrus
 

Forum statistics

Threads
1,119,167
Messages
13,564,827
Members
100,753
Latest member
aw8vietnam
The RX is the sports betting industry's leading information portal for bonuses, picks, and sportsbook reviews. Find the best deals offered by a sportsbook in your state and browse our free picks section.FacebookTwitterInstagramContact Usforum@therx.com