War News - U.S. soldiers, 15 Iraqis killed in southern Iraq

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NAJAF, Iraq (AP) U.S.-led forces launched their biggest assault yet against militiamen loyal to a radical Shiite cleric, raiding hideouts in several cities Wednesday and clashing with gunmen in the world's biggest cemetery. At least 15 Iraqis and a U.S. soldier were killed.

Moderate Shiites tried to persuade anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to back away from his confrontation with the United States a reflection of their growing concern.

Skirmishes between U.S. troops and al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army militia have grown deadlier recently as the military steps up pressure on the cleric while trying to avoid an offensive in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.

''The operation will continue until the goal of eliminating and disarming al-Sadr's militia is met,'' Polish forces spokesman Lt. Col. Robert Strzelecki said. ''I think that will take place soon.''

The militiamen also have increased attacks, apparently to push the United States into negotiations or goad it into an offensive that could rally other Shiites behind al-Sadr.

Iraqi Governing Council member Mohammed Bahr al-Ulloum delivered a message to al-Sadr from a group of influential Shiites calling on his militia to disarm and leave Najaf, council member Raja Habib Al-Khuzaai told The Associated Press.

The message from the group made up of about 500 Shiites, including local council members, tribal officials and others represented the most public effort by Shiite leaders to push al-Sadr into making concessions to end the standoff, which began when his militia launched an uprising in early April.

Meanwhile, the director of Abu Ghraib prison promised to open the facility to the international Red Cross and the Iraqi Interior and Human Rights ministries amid an outcry over abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller also apologized for the ''illegal or unauthorized acts'' committed by a ''small number of our soldiers'' at Abu Ghraib, where photographs showed stripped and hooded Iraqis being abused by U.S. guards.

President Bush went on two Arabic-language TV stations to try to assuage outrage across the Middle East over the abuse. Bush condemned the prisoners' treatment as ''abhorrent'' and pledged that those found guilty ''will be brought to justice'' but stopped short of an apology.

The heaviest fighting in the south part of the military's Operation Iron Saber came in the holy city of Karbala, where coalition forces raided a hotel, the local former Baath Party headquarters and the regional governor's office, where al-Sadr fighters had been stockpiling weapons, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said.

In the overnight raid on the governor's office, troops came under fire, Kimmitt said in Baghdad. He said 10 al-Sadr followers were killed.

The U.S. soldier died when a dump truck tried to ram a checkpoint in Karbala, the military said. He was the 20th U.S. serviceman killed in Iraq in May.

Outside the city of Kufa, U.S. forces attacked a van where Iraqis were seen unloading weapons. The vehicle was destroyed and five Iraqis were killed, Kimmitt said.

In Najaf, U.S. troops battled al-Mahdi Army fighters outside a cemetery near the Imam Ali Shrine, Iraq's holiest Shiite site. The soldiers opened fire with machine guns on militiamen who had ambushed them.

More than 50 militiamen took part in the fighting in Najaf's sprawling cemetery, ambushing three U.S. Humvees. As the Americans returned fire, mourners who had come to bury their dead ran for safety.

''American forces tried to enter Najaf from Najaf Lake, but they were repelled by the al-Mahdi Army which forced them to flee,'' said a militia official, Mushtaq al-Khafaji. He said no militiamen were hurt.

The Army says al-Sadr's militiamen are hiding weapons in the cemetery, the world's largest with 5 million graves. One Najaf resident said he saw stocks of rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons stored in his family plot, but when he returned later the arms were gone.

Coalition troops also raided and occupied al-Sadr's office in Diwaniyah, an operation to ''reduce militia influence in the city,'' Kimmitt said. The troops were fired on from a vehicle, which was destroyed. Coalition forces found rocket-propelled grenades and mortars in a nearby school.

The military has said they will avoid the Imam Ali Shrine and other holy sites in Najaf and Karbala. Shiite leaders have warned that offensives near the shrines would spark Shiite anger and even turn the revolt by al-Sadr followers into a wider uprising by Iraq's majority Shiites.

The statement drawn up Tuesday by the 500 prominent Shiites reflected increasing concern over the standoff ahead of the installation of a new Iraqi government on June 30.

''We demanded in our statement that arms should be put down, be taken out of school, mosques and holy places. We also asked (al-Sadr) to get out of the holy city of Najaf,'' Governing Council member al-Khuzaai said. ''Our aim is to solve the problem in Najaf and spare its people any evil.''

Another group of Najaf leaders said U.S. officials rejected their proposals for resolving the standoff. The group is pushing a plan under which U.S. forces and al-Sadr's fighters would leave the city, and al-Sadr would escape prosecution on charges he ordered a rival cleric slain last year.

U.S. officials have insisted al-Sadr face the murder charges.

In Fallujah, west of Baghdad, the U.S. military distributed leaflets Wednesday inviting residents to apply for compensation for damage done during the Marine siege in April. The military also promised to clean up the streets, improve water facilities and rebuild schools and mosques.

Marines have been turning over responsibility for the city to a new force made up of former members of the Iraqi army.

[This message was edited by wilheim on May 05, 2004 at 07:04 PM.]
 

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Three US soldiers were killed during clashes with militiamen of the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in the southern Iraqi city of Diwaniya, the US-led coalition said.

The three soldiers were killed in operations in the city 180 kilometres south of Baghdad as US-led forces upped the pressure on the cleric whose militia have led a month-long revolt.

"Targets included buildings and fighting positions used by Moqtada's militia during two earlier attacks on Coalition forces," the US military said in a statement.

"One of these attacks resulted in the deaths of three US soldiers."

More than 30 people were killed in battles that erupted on Tuesday and flared again on Wednesday across southern cities, coalition and Iraqi sources said.

The coalition said militiamen had fired at soldiers from a school and the military had responded, gunning down several armed men in a car who had wounded one coalition soldier.

Sadr has been holed up in the Shiite holy city of Najaf where he has vowed to lead his followers to martyrdom, but has also embarked on tentative moves to try to strike a deal with the US forces surrounding the city.

He is wanted over the killing of a rival cleric last year and the US say they want him to face trial.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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For the first six months we were ordering body bags for Americans at the rate of one a day.

Then it went to two a day.

Last month it was almost four per day.

Now we're getting increased reports of 6, 8, 10 body bags a day.

It's a sick curiousity I have wondering what number will finally cause those backing GW Bush to say, "That's too many".

Dark observation is that there are sufficient backers who would reply, "No number of dead American GIs is too high for us to not back GW Bush on this campaign to take over another country(s)."

Only six months til the election. Past month's escalation suggests we will be seeing routine daily reports in October of 20-30 dead U.S. soldiers.
 

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must admit i was feeling a little down today then i saw the part about 15 dead iraqis,jesus christ has it just perked me right up.i feel like a new man.
 

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American forces took on over 20,000 casualties fighting for the 3 by 8 mile island of Iwo Jima alone, in Febuary-March of 1945. Who are these people that thought there weren't going to be lives lost over there in Iraq when we made that commitment? The real surprise is how shocked the public is over new that we'll probably lose 1000 to 2000 before this is over. It's a war against Islamic extremism, not some exercise over at Nellis AFB. I can't believe the American public didn't expect this or be prepared for even worse. Nothing like this ever comes without a price. And I mean a price in body count.
 
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This generation is not used to seeing dead fellow countrymen, maybe that will change.

There is also the idea that wars are increasingly bloodless (which is true but not to the extent to which people believe it to so to be)
 

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I hate to see any American soldier die, but do realize this would take a cost. It would begin to concern me if we had over 5000 over the next 1-2 years. I still think we should be fortified and use only groups of heavy equipment. We need to always move, search, and fight with overwhelming force each time. No more checkpoints behind a Humvee or a few sandbags. Built some structures and fire at will for those that don't stop.
 

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AMER: American forces took on over 20,000 casualties fighting for the 3 by 8 mile island of Iwo Jima alone, in Febuary-March of 1945.

BAR: Which is relevant to the current campaign why?

AMER: Who are these people that thought there weren't going to be lives lost over there in Iraq when we made that commitment?

BAR: Well two of them were Donald Rumsfeld and GW Bush. The former expected us to Shock and Awe with minimal loss of US lives. The latter declared the Mission Accomplished and 'the end to hostilities in Iraq' exactly one year ago this week, when the body count was under 100.

Oh and don't forget Paul Wolfowitz, who as of last week testified to Congress and understated the body count by almost 40%.

As for all of us who opposed the Operation from the start, we certainly aren't surprised. In the 21st century, attempting to take over and occupy a sovereign nation is a guarantee of perpetual casualties.

AMER: The real surprise is how shocked the public is over new that we'll probably lose 1000 to 2000 before this is over.

BAR: You sound like Rumsfeld last spring when the 'expected' number of bodies was 100-200.

AMER: It's a war against Islamic extremism, not some exercise over at Nellis AFB.

BAR: I thought it was a war against terrorism.

No wait, it's a war to save us from Saddam Hussein attacking the USA with non-existent weapons.

No wait, it's in response to 9/11, a terrorist act carried out by Saudis.

I'm so confused.

AMER: I can't believe the American public didn't expect this or be prepared for even worse.

BAR: Well as noted above, over half of us DID expect this and even worse.

AMER: Nothing like this ever comes without a price. And I mean a price in body count.

BAR: What is the highest price you would pay to win the war against - (fill in blank from above list please so I'll know what war you're defending).
 

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From another thread:

William Tecumseh Sherman noted, "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry for blood, more vengeance. More desolation."

wil.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barman:
AMER: American forces took on over 20,000 casualties fighting for the 3 by 8 mile island of Iwo Jima alone, in Febuary-March of 1945.

BAR: Which is relevant to the current campaign why?
I was trying to explain that from a military standpoint, the casualties haven't been that high.

AMER: Who are these people that thought there weren't going to be lives lost over there in Iraq when we made that commitment?

BAR: Well two of them were Donald Rumsfeld and GW Bush. The former expected us to Shock and Awe with minimal loss of US lives. The latter declared the Mission Accomplished and 'the end to hostilities in Iraq' exactly one year ago this week, when the body count was under 100.

Oh and don't forget Paul Wolfowitz, who as of last week testified to Congress and understated the body count by almost 40%.

As for all of us who opposed the Operation from the start, we certainly aren't surprised. In the 21st century, attempting to take over and occupy a sovereign nation is a guarantee of perpetual casualties.

What's your point?

AMER: The real surprise is how shocked the public is over new that we'll probably lose 1000 to 2000 before this is over.

BAR: You sound like Rumsfeld last spring when the 'expected' number of bodies was 100-200.

Again, what's your point? I'm the one saying that it could be considerably more before it's over. If Rumsfield would have called me before his speach I would have told him to go with 1000 to 2000.

AMER: It's a war against Islamic extremism, not some exercise over at Nellis AFB.

BAR: I thought it was a war against terrorism.

What the f*ck is a war against terrorism? Terrorism is a tactic. We're at war with Islamic extremists. Not a tactic, or method of resistence or a thought.


AMER: I can't believe the American public didn't expect this or be prepared for even worse.

BAR: Well as noted above, over half of us DID expect this and even worse.

Good for you. You're brilliant.

AMER: Nothing like this ever comes without a price. And I mean a price in body count.

BAR: What is the highest price you would pay to win the war against - (fill in blank from above list please so I'll know what war you're defending).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever it takes to remove the threat of those who mean America harm. What price would you pay?

BTW Barman, your Lander-style arguements have a long way to go. This one rolled........foul.

[This message was edited by American on May 06, 2004 at 12:48 AM.]

[This message was edited by American on May 06, 2004 at 12:50 AM.]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wilheim:
From another thread:

William Tecumseh Sherman noted, "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry for blood, more vengeance. More desolation."

wil.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a nice quote. I'm very surprised you didn't try to claim it as your own.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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You ask what price I would pay?

My reply is that I do not fear others harming America.

If you do, then I suppose yes indeed that no price is too high, if you are intent on remaining in fear.

BOL finding relief.
 

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[This message was edited by American on May 06, 2004 at 12:48 AM.]

[This message was edited by American on May 06, 2004 at 12:50 AM.]

He stutters.

marsububu.gif
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barman:
You ask what price I would pay?

My reply is that I do not fear others harming America.

If you do, then I suppose yes indeed that no price is too high, if you are intent on remaining in fear.

BOL finding relief.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not afraid...just pissed. You have a bunch of fruitcakes going around saying "kill all Americans" and they've highjacked planes and set-off bombs. I am in favor of confronting these gentleman with force.

If Kerry gets elected, you'll be very disappointed if you think he's going to just pull everybody out of there and call off the dogs.
 

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Being 'pissed' is a byproduct of fear, but never mind that for now.

President Kerry may indeed have a challenging time extracting our troops from this pointless charade. But using him to replace the man who sent our boys to their bloody death as paid mercenaries is my only reasonable option.

Hopefully, Kerry will continue the so called War on Terror, but he will be smart enough to focus on those (Saudis) who actually fly airplanes into U.S. buildings, instead of scratching a revenge itch with an unrelated sovereign nation.
 

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So getting angered is a by product of fear, according to you or something you've read. I suppose that total indifference is a "byproduct" of having no fear, according to this "logic."

I guess those who fear nothing walk around looking like they're on qualudes or something. I think I saw a guy like that today.

Anyways, I , along with you, certainly hope for the best as there is a lot at stake.
 

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