The Bible doesn't always seem to make a lot of sense, so why should I read it?

[mizagot]

calm down guys...im entitled to my beliefs. Mizagot that is your opinion. That doesn't make it the truth. I'm not going to get into it. I have my beliefs and was posed a question that I was wondering about.

My bad, kornholio. I am sorry if it seemed I was jumping down your throat. I need to control myself better, as I am in no way entitled to belittle anyone's opinion. I apologize.

I agree that we are all entitled to our opinions. I am enjoying the articulate discussion, and look forward to hearing more viewpoints.

 

[bblight]

xpanda - there are institutions such as Christmas and Easter that have been around since the birth of both of our nations - because both nations were and are majority Christian. When I see a small minority of people trying to deny the public practice of those institutions, I get upset.

If someone wants to be an atheist, then by all means, do what you want. I'm not a practicing Christian, but, even with it's shortfalls, I consider religion to be a much better social conscience than the government - especially the politically correct part of the government that oversees the education of our children.

 

[JinnRikki]

I consider religion to be a much better social conscience than the government - especially the politically correct part of the government that oversees the education of our children.

So then Bushs faith based initiatives are OK with you? If I'm Jewish or Buddhist or an atheist down on my luck, I should go get a dose of Christianity to go with my charity?

"Why not leave each other to our own beliefs while celebrating our freedom to celebrate those beliefs? Why not respect each other and our different cultures in this melting pot society?"

I agree,to bad not all Christian organizations feel that way. I can't remember the last time an agnostic knocked on my door Saturday morning asking me to reconsider my faith in God.<!-- / message -->

 

[blueedwards]

well, christians believe that the bible is true. the bible says the number one problem people have is their separation from God caused by sin. all else is secondary. so, if you are a non-believer (atheist, buddist, muslim or whatever) and come to a christian organization for help, they feel compelled to meet your physical need but also to attempt to meet your spiritual need.

no christian organization that i know of requires you to conform to their beliefs to get food, shelter, etc. but, to share their faith while meeting someone's physical need is very important to the christian. the person getting help can say "thank you very much for the free meal...i am not really interested in what you have to say about God" and walk out the door. it happens all the time.

here is an analogy...if someone knocks on your door at 3:00 in the morning, hasn't eaten in a week and is suffering from a gunshot wound. what do you do first...give them some bread or drive them to the hospital?

eventually, you'd do both for them if you could but...which is the more pressing need?

 

[blueedwards]

part of the reason it's hard to understand or doesn't seem to make sense is that humans are finite beings. when we read the bible with our limited understanding of spiritual things we only see a small part of the whole truth.

 

[bblight]

jinn - you're justifying my statement with your own words "So then Bushs faith based initiatives are OK with you? If I'm Jewish or Buddhist or an atheist down on my luck, I should go get a dose of Christianity to go with my charity?"

Faith based means just that FAITH based! The Jews and Muslims and even Buddhists are as deep into this as are the Christians; generally speaking, they have a larger number of students as a % of their population than the Christian schools do.

My kids all went to Catholic schools (and I'm not Catholic), before faith based initiatives started - and they got a much better education than their public school counterparts. I particularly remember a friend of my daughter in public high school got into an argument with my daughter over the point that English was a foreign language - that we all spoke "American".

Faith based initiatives will allow many lower income kids to go to better schools - such competition will force the public schools to improve or die! The public school teachers unions don't want that, because many members might have to start living up to minimal teaching standards that they can't achieve without some sweat equity.

The left is doing everything it can to hinder faith based organizations from helping the needy as follows: "This month marks the fourth anniversary of President Bush's Faith-Based and Community Initiative. The administration has worked to put into place regulations to ensure that faith-based organizations are able to compete for federal funding on an equal footing with other similar groups. Faith-based groups, both with and without federal aid, have tremendous success in helping addicts, the homeless, and the poor. Unfortunately, not all the smaller state bureaucracies have gotten the message yet, and some have increased the red tape that stands in aid's way.
On the White House website for the Faith-Based Initiative, less than 20 states are represented as having liaisons to help faith-based groups compete for federal funds. Some of those listed are less than helpful. Louisiana's Gov. Kathleen Blanco, who is listed by the White House as the liaison for faith-based groups, recently issued an order that could prohibit Louisiana's church community from receiving any government contracts to help the poor. The order prohibits any "contractor" of the state from considering among other things, "religion" or "sexual orientation" when making decisions relating to "hiring" or "recruitment" of employees. This order can be used against many religious groups because of their stance on homosexuality and the sanctity of life while ignoring the tremendous good these groups can do for the community. Governors like Blanco should not use tax dollars as a stick to beat faith-based charities into submission to their liberal agendas. I urge the White House to do more outreach to the states to ensure that those who would sacrifice the neediest to advance their own agenda do not prevail."

 

[JinnRikki]

I can't see many gays going to a church for help, or drug addicts or anyone considered a sinner. These people will go to a nonjudgemental place for help. When there are only faithbased charitable institutions many won't seek help at all. You think you have homeless problem now? Just wait.
And not all lower income kids will be able to go to better schools, besides readin', writin', 'rithmetic and religion shouldn't be the curriculum.

How do you justify something with a question??

 

[blueedwards]

I can't see many gays going to a church for help, or drug addicts or anyone considered a sinner. These people will go to a nonjudgemental place for help. When there are only faithbased charitable institutions many won't seek help at all. You think you have homeless problem now? Just wait.
And not all lower income kids will be able to go to better schools, besides readin', writin', 'rithmetic and religion shouldn't be the curriculum.

How do you justify something with a question??

well, here's how it's supposed to work:

since the church is made up of imperfect people, many of whom have struggled with drug/alcohol addictions and sexual issues, they are sympathetic to people far from God who struggle with the same things. i know that it doesn't always work this way. i know many "christians" look down on people and judge them without even knowing them.

i have been to food pantries where a wide variety of people come in to get food when they can't afford it. no one asks them if they are a christian or not. and, i'm sure many of them have addictions or other issues which, while i may not approve of, does not prevent me from showing them compassion. if they come in to the food pantry to get food, they are not turned away. they also are told why someone who does not know them has a heart to donate their time and money to help them. it is not because we are perfect people, it is because we follow a God who takes compassion on everyone and calls us to do the same.

it is important that they know that. they do not have to respond of course but, it would not be right to not tell them.

 

[quantumleap]

Always been a big fan of Jaynes' "bicameral mind" theory of the development of consciousness, which for all of its shortcomings goes a long way to explain such phenomae in human development as the general shift from animism to polytheism to monotheism, and provides a reasonable explanation of the paradox of otherwise rational people in modern times who still somehow cannot conceive of life without a deity.

Some info here. The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind was one of the first "grown up" books I ever read, around the time I was thirteen or so. Great stuff.


Phaedrus

Wow! I haven't read that book in over 10 years. It's a good read and seems to make sense. For those who aren't going to read it, Jaynes states that the ability for man to have consciousness derived from the development of the 2 lobes of the brain over the millenia.

I'll have to have a read of it again.

 

[docmercer--banned]

Bush sending Rice to divide up Israel is living proof that Bush has never picked up and read the Bible ...

 

[docmercer--banned]

Sportsavant:

Muslims do not pray to the same god as Christians ... go read the Koran

 

[Kornholio]

blue edwards...I like your style. I never thought there would be someone else on a gambling forum that shared my beliefs. Seems there are a few of us. Keep the faith brother.:awesom:

 

[eek.]

I can get a bit picky with this Church stuff...

they are sympathetic to people far from God who struggle with the
same things.

This implies that you are closer to him than them.
How can you know this?
Has God told you this, or are you using a non God vehicle, like the Bible to bring you to this conclusion.

I follow no religion but I am closer to him than you because I say so.

If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, you cannot ever judge others.
He basically told us that its absolutely none of our business.

 

[xpanda]

Why is it that the righties among us are so disgusted with the idea of welfare to individuals but simultaneously champion the idea of federally funded faith-based initiatives? Besides the obvious god-injected slant, what's the difference?

 

[kburiss001]

xpanda

I could not be more against the use of "federal funds" of tax dollars for faith-based initiatives. I just realize that the alternative is worse. You will have a hard time finding a domestic policy of Bush's that I would support. My problem with the left is that they believe that their supreme moral consciencious entiles them to my money to perpatrate what I believe at best misguided policies and in reality the purchasing of votes. In essence the left is driven by its (self) morally sanctioned theft of that which they could never earn. That also feeds their resentment of success and their willingness if not zeal to punish it.

 

[eek.]

I tend to view righties like children with a pack of sweets, (or a dog with a bone), both of whom are unable to share.
The brain development simply isn't there.

Us lefty adults are needed to show them what's community based and civilised.

Although in most cases I find they're just plain old mean and looking for any old excuse not to part with anything.

Charity is very popular with righties because its much cheaper and voluntary.

 

[bblight]

BlueEdwards- A nice post about faith based organizations and compassion - You said it all. I would add that the church doesn't condone the sin, but they will do everything in their power to help the sinner.

xpanda - the government can't set expectations the way a faith based organization could - the faith based organization won't throw good money after bad - the more aid they provide, the more they expect lifestyle adjustments and changes. I would say that the level of their expectations are based on the amount of aid that they're giving.

eek - your statements make it obvious that you don't have a clue about faith based organizations in the United States. Just imagine the local Baptist Pastor overseeing the local welfare program - the recipients might hate it, but their lifestyles would undergo a well needed tuneup! And they'd work to get off of the dole and away from that Pastor!

 

[blueedwards]

I can get a bit picky with this Church stuff...



This implies that you are closer to him than them.
How can you know this?
Has God told you this, or are you using a non God vehicle, like the Bible to bring you to this conclusion.

I follow no religion but I am closer to him than you because I say so.

If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, you cannot ever judge others.
He basically told us that its absolutely none of our business.

eek, have you ever read any of the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus? you are raising the classic objections of someone who has never read the accounts yet tries to quote certain things out of context.

 

[TheGeneral+]

Blue, I started reading Luke today. I'll get there.

 

[blueedwards]

Blue, I started reading Luke today. I'll get there.

would love to hear your thoughts pete...