The Bible doesn't always seem to make a lot of sense, so why should I read it?

[Kornholio]

I believe the bible and I am a christian. I have always wondered something and since there is such great dialogue here I will ask.

The Bible says God has always existed...He never had a beginning. That is hard to wrap your noodle around. But for those that don't believe in the Bible, you, by default, believe that there is something else in the universe that has always been here, and never had a beginning. But we all know everything has to have a beginning...right? For me...that is enough "proof" I need... that it is God who created us, and I will live just fine in not understanding how God never had a beginning.

So if you do not believe in God, what do you believe? That the world we know created itself? Even if you believe the Bigbang, what was here to create that possibility? Space? What created Space?

Not ridiculing anybody's beliefs at all. Im just wondering.

 

[JinnRikki]

If you believe in science (and why not at least science attempts to prove it's theories) a theory now floating is there are multiple universes(string theory). The universe we live in (or reality if you like) is only one of an infinite number. Also black holes are more and more being thought of as not the ending of matter. It is now posited by some that the flow of matter into a black hole is not the end of that matter but the beginning of a new universe in another dimension. The big bang, if you will, of a new universe.
If we are ever able to study the mysteries of black holes up close I think we will answer most of the unanswerable questions.

 

[RobFunk]

that is pretty much it for me as far as relegion goes jinn. if there is a god, are you telling me that the one described in the bible took 6 days to create earth but has enough time to monitor hundreds of planets and make sure tom brady has a good second half in the super bowl and make yourself amazed at the fact you had just enough salsa to cover your last corn chip (oh, thank god)?!

its why religion went so well with voting for bush. im afraid of change, im afraid of the truth. so vote for bush and pray to god.

 

[Kornholio]

If you believe in science (and why not at least science attempts to prove it's theories) a theory now floating is there are multiple universes(string theory). The universe we live in (or reality if you like) is only one of an infinite number. Also black holes are more and more being thought of as not the ending of matter. It is now posited by some that the flow of matter into a black hole is not the end of that matter but the beginning of a new universe in another dimension. The big bang, if you will, of a new universe.
If we are ever able to study the mysteries of black holes up close I think we will answer most of the unanswerable questions.

But what was the beginning of all this? The fact remains that something has been here forever, and there was no beginning to it. It has just always been. If it is not God, then what is it?

 

[JinnRikki]

I think what you want to know is if there was intelligent design to everything. And what science says, I think, is that consequence is what made everything. And every day science is attempting to find out what the consequences were.
And still, as xpanda said earlier, if you believe in god who or what made god? Did god just appear? Did god have parents?

 

[Kornholio]

I see your point. Basically you are saying that it is not known but they are trying to figure it out.

And to answer your question, the Bible says God had no beginning, he has always been. Because our minds our finite (and not infinite like God's), we cannot possibly understand that. And I accept that as the truth. There are many things in the Bible I don't understand, but I still have faith that they are true. Thank you for your opinion jinn, I respect it. I guess we could go on and on and on and that is why this thread is 5 pages.

 

[RobFunk]

for the bible heads to screw with this apostle its not possible mega large colossal, youre docile, and not sizeable, play me close and i'll ox you thats only logical cause im fact and youre costume

 

[mizagot]

Why so much faith in the Bible?
It was written by humans for crying out loud.
And years after its stories were purported to have taken place.
It irks me when "God" is the answer to the question when there is no other answer.
So if we don't know why or how, then it must be God - huh?!

 

[Kornholio]

calm down guys...im entitled to my beliefs. Mizagot that is your opinion. That doesn't make it the truth. I'm not going to get into it. I have my beliefs and was posed a question that I was wondering about.

 

[Phaedrus]

Always been a big fan of Jaynes' "bicameral mind" theory of the development of consciousness, which for all of its shortcomings goes a long way to explain such phenomae in human development as the general shift from animism to polytheism to monotheism, and provides a reasonable explanation of the paradox of otherwise rational people in modern times who still somehow cannot conceive of life without a deity.

Some info here. The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind was one of the first "grown up" books I ever read, around the time I was thirteen or so. Great stuff.


Phaedrus

 

[JinnRikki]

Well, without reading the book (which may be a chore) is it Jaynes' contention that our ancestors heard disembodied voices which they thought were god or gods? Then some cataclysm caused them to be self aware and they lost the ability to hear the voices? So it's the genetic memory of those voices compelling people to need a Deity?
If his theory is true then in another 1000 years or so mankind may forget they ever heard the voices. Do you think religion will fade also?

 

[blueedwards]

general, in your original post you said the bible doesn't always make sense so why should i read it.

i would challenge you to read the gospel of luke. it should take you about 1-2 hours, depending on how fast you read. see if that makes sense and/or is easy to follow.

also, i'd be interested to hear how you feel about it after reading it. what i mean is, i'd be interested to see if you think its a collection of crazy myths and made up nonsense or if you thought it had a ring of truth.

 

[GAMEFACE]

How do you explain the bible being written so long ago and the writings coming true today. I believe and I'm getting closer to God.

 

[Phaedrus]

posted by JinnRikki:

Well, without reading the book (which may be a chore) is it Jaynes' contention that our ancestors heard disembodied voices which they thought were god or gods?

Then some cataclysm caused them to be self aware and they lost the ability to hear the voices? So it's the genetic memory of those voices compelling people to need a Deity?

That would be the very very very abridged version, but that is the long and short of it. Jaynes analyses what he feels to be several key aspects of ancient society and the period from what is generally considered "ancient" to "modern" that tend to reinforce the idea of a sort of social evolution in man's perception of himself and the world around him. One of the more interesting parts studies the the phenomenon of The Odyssey as being the first known work that featured introspection rather than solely external narrative -- the earliest known work where the author talks about how someone felt or what he thought, vs. merely what he did and what events transpired in the course of the story. In historical restrospect, this seemingly simple difference is actually a vast leap, and Jaynes explores its implications in depth.

If his theory is true then in another 1000 years or so mankind may forget they ever heard the voices. Do you think religion will fade also?

Well, I doubt it. That aspect of the mind is obviously still there and flourishes despite its obvious conflict with basic reality. Look at the way religious zealots generally refuse to accept even those scientific possibilities that might reinforce the idea of the existence of "higher powers" simply because those ideas are still not "100% by the book" (whatever book.)

Only the human subconscious could create a vanity so powerful that it could convince the conscious that it is so special that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful entity that considers it superior to all other forces in nature, and even more than some other humans because the human in question glorifies the higher power in question. This concept, so absurd that any young child could think his way around it in under a minute, guides the lives of a seriously disturbing number of adults of all faiths in the modern world. It is unlikely to ever truly be gotten rid of, and who knows -- maybe without it we'd actually be worse off. There are compelling (if distasteful) arguments for being able to control large portions of the population via rudimentary mind control.


Phaedrus

 

[one9]

Keep The Faith...

 

[TheGeneral+]

general, in your original post you said the bible doesn't always make sense so why should i read it.

i would challenge you to read the gospel of luke. it should take you about 1-2 hours, depending on how fast you read. see if that makes sense and/or is easy to follow.

also, i'd be interested to hear how you feel about it after reading it. what i mean is, i'd be interested to see if you think its a collection of crazy myths and made up nonsense or if you thought it had a ring of truth.

Will Do.

 

[xpanda]

Well, I doubt it. That aspect of the mind is obviously still there and flourishes despite its obvious conflict with basic reality. Look at the way religious zealots generally refuse to accept even those scientific possibilities that might reinforce the idea of the existence of "higher powers" simply because those ideas are still not "100% by the book" (whatever book.)

Creationism in science class, anyone?

There are compelling (if distasteful) arguments for being able to control large portions of the population via rudimentary mind control.

Interestingly, the flow of political philosophers that inspired the neocon ideology (Machiavelli, Strauss, etc.) consistently argue that it is imperative that the population be made religious subjects, though equally imperative that their ruler(s) not do so. The marriage between the Christian Zionists and the Jewish Neocons in power (who I believe are not truly faithful) is odd given the annhilation of Jews in the Rapture thesis, but really understandable if taken in the context of making US foreign policy in the ME popular at home. Many other Western nations were founded on Judeo-Christian principles (broad though they are) yet don't share this religious viewpoint.

If the nation-state does fall, will religion fall with it? Or will it simply replace the state as the 'new' concentration of power?

 

[bblight]

I get confused when I see fairly rational people who question other peoples belief and faith in a deity.

I don't understand the small mindedness and intolerance of people who do everything in their power to minmize religion while using the excuse that they fear being repressed by religion itself.

What's the big deal?

Why not leave each other to our own beliefs while celebrating our freedom to celebrate those beliefs? Why not respect each other and our different cultures in this melting pot society?

 

[xpanda]

Blight: I couldn't agree with you more. Religion should be a private matter, left to the individual to accept or reject. Which is a big part of why I'm so glad to be Canadian. With the exception of seeing Christmas trees in December, religion is rarely paraded. I haven't a clue what the religious background is of any current or past politician. Not a clue. And if we had a leader use terms like 'evildoers' or try to claim that Jesus Christ was a political philosopher or suggest that the upcoming war was a Crusade, he would be out on his ass pretty quickly.

 

[Marco]

"How do you explain the bible being written so long ago and the writings coming true today."

GAME......I would be curious to know what passages you are talking about as there are broad, vague passages about earthquakes and disasters......these things happen all the time, to say that they are being predicted is quite loose in my estimation.....the bible is full of loose projections as is any book of predictions....

Some people believe in Nostradamus and believe he had talent to predict the future....however there is a lot of interpretation that needs to be done because his passages are cloudy and imprecise as to actual dates and events....one can look at a single passage and come to different conclusions as to what event in history he was talking about, the same as other loosely constructed passages that are found in other prophesy books, including the bible.

One also has to look at the accuracy aspect......anyone could write out 1000 predictions about the future, I'm guessing that a few would come in, and those that come in would be broad generalizations and not specific in date or region.....in effect what happens is that something happens in history, then people try to look at prophetic works to see if this matches anything written, or in effect, they are drawing a bullseye around the majority of bullet holes. Until prophesy gets more specific, there will be no way to stand around and watch something happen knowing beforehand what is next.......there are claims surrounding the WTC buildings, but who was sitting on a street corner in a lawn chair two blocks away that morning on 9/11 just waiting to see 2 skyscrapers vaporize? (Yes, I know there could have been an arab or two..)