For those of us watching "close" here in TBay (though we may not be fans of the club), easily the most disappointing component of Gruden's tenure was that he did in fact come here off a solid four years in Oakland and he did head up that 2002 Super Bowl Bucs team.
Thus when he spent the next six years mired in mediocrity, it was a real drag to watch, just as watching any kind of sports meltodwn.
The most interesting angle of comparison to me personally is to check out the records of Gruden's contemporaries from 2003-2008 - the years where Jon Gruden was 45-53
Bill Cowher 46-25
Tony Dungy 82-26
Andy Reid 64-41
Bill Belichick 88-22
Jeff Fisher 53-47
Bill Parcells 34-32
Marty S 39-27
John Fox 61-44
Mike Holmgren 59-46
Brian Billick 43-39
Marvin Lewis 46-50
In short, of the 12 men who coached NFL teams during the 2003-2008 period (minimum four seasons), Gruden had the 12th best record.
Perhaps the only thing more baffling than hiring Raheem Morris for 2009 would have been if the Bucs had retained a guy with this success level for another season.
Don't be looking to TampaBay as any kind of location for successful coaches any time soon. That day passed way back in Feb 2003 when they walked off the field as SB champs.
Thus when he spent the next six years mired in mediocrity, it was a real drag to watch, just as watching any kind of sports meltodwn.
The most interesting angle of comparison to me personally is to check out the records of Gruden's contemporaries from 2003-2008 - the years where Jon Gruden was 45-53
Bill Cowher 46-25
Tony Dungy 82-26
Andy Reid 64-41
Bill Belichick 88-22
Jeff Fisher 53-47
Bill Parcells 34-32
Marty S 39-27
John Fox 61-44
Mike Holmgren 59-46
Brian Billick 43-39
Marvin Lewis 46-50
In short, of the 12 men who coached NFL teams during the 2003-2008 period (minimum four seasons), Gruden had the 12th best record.
Perhaps the only thing more baffling than hiring Raheem Morris for 2009 would have been if the Bucs had retained a guy with this success level for another season.
Don't be looking to TampaBay as any kind of location for successful coaches any time soon. That day passed way back in Feb 2003 when they walked off the field as SB champs.
You follow football and you don't know who Martyball is?
Jeff Fisher has a 53-47 record in that timespan... do you think the Titans should have fired their coach that was "stuck in mediocracy" before last year.... then they wouldn't have finished in first place.
6 years in mediocracy... and a super bowl ring. A lot of fans would rather have a coach go 0-16, 0-16, 0-16, SUPER BOWL WIN... than 11-5. 10-6, 12-4 all with playoff lossess... you don't believe me, ask eagles fans.
So you say coach diversity will probably fail... but that he doesn't have any talent ( an excuse), yet you bring up that fact at all when talking about Gruden. It's simply a black/white, win/loss record issue...
Jeff Fisher has a 53-47 record in that timespan... do you think the Titans should have fired their coach that was "stuck in mediocracy" before last year.... then they wouldn't have finished in first place.
6 years in mediocracy... and a super bowl ring. A lot of fans would rather have a coach go 0-16, 0-16, 0-16, SUPER BOWL WIN... than 11-5. 10-6, 12-4 all with playoff lossess... you don't believe me, ask eagles fans.
So you say coach diversity will probably fail... but that he doesn't have any talent ( an excuse), yet you bring up that fact at all when talking about Gruden. It's simply a black/white, win/loss record issue...
CGold is puzzled: You follow football and you don't know who Martyball is?
Bar: I follow football and I did not know who "maryball" was...though I figured out your malaprop later as I tallied up the list of 11 NFL coaches with better records than Jon Gruden during 2003-8
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CG: Jeff Fisher has a 53-47 record in that timespan... do you think the Titans should have fired their coach that was "stuck in mediocracy" before last year.... then they wouldn't have finished in first place.
Bar: Clearly 2008 was a tipping point (sixth year in the cited span). For Fisher it was a very strong double digit wins and post season. For Gruden it was another late season meltdown* and home in January. Fisher is thus retained and Gruden is out of the league.
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CG: So you say coach diversity will probably fail... but that he doesn't have any talent ( an excuse), yet you bring up that fact at all when talking about Gruden. It's simply a black/white, win/loss record issue...
Bar: Correct. Neither Morris nor Gruden will or would have much chance with the 2009 Bucs roster. And from the ownership standpoint, it's better to have cut financial ties with Gruden sooner than later. While they will have to pay him for 2009, if he does what you - CGold - and many others forecast, which is to get a fresh NFL HC job in 2010, the Bucs will have thus saved close to $10million by moving to Morris (and whoever might follow).
The Bucs ownership has since 2003 been literally the cheapest in all of the NFL. And since that doesn't seem likely to change, be prepared to watch the Bucs of 2009-2015 resemble the past decade of Cincinnati, Cleveland, Buffalo et al
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*Gruden record for Bucs past six years in December/January games 9-21
In short, his style appears to be able to take teams forward for about 12 games and then his system collapses under the weight of it's own mediocrity as the rest of the NFL amps it up for the final month of the season.
Bar: I follow football and I did not know who "maryball" was...though I figured out your malaprop later as I tallied up the list of 11 NFL coaches with better records than Jon Gruden during 2003-8
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CG: Jeff Fisher has a 53-47 record in that timespan... do you think the Titans should have fired their coach that was "stuck in mediocracy" before last year.... then they wouldn't have finished in first place.
Bar: Clearly 2008 was a tipping point (sixth year in the cited span). For Fisher it was a very strong double digit wins and post season. For Gruden it was another late season meltdown* and home in January. Fisher is thus retained and Gruden is out of the league.
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CG: So you say coach diversity will probably fail... but that he doesn't have any talent ( an excuse), yet you bring up that fact at all when talking about Gruden. It's simply a black/white, win/loss record issue...
Bar: Correct. Neither Morris nor Gruden will or would have much chance with the 2009 Bucs roster. And from the ownership standpoint, it's better to have cut financial ties with Gruden sooner than later. While they will have to pay him for 2009, if he does what you - CGold - and many others forecast, which is to get a fresh NFL HC job in 2010, the Bucs will have thus saved close to $10million by moving to Morris (and whoever might follow).
The Bucs ownership has since 2003 been literally the cheapest in all of the NFL. And since that doesn't seem likely to change, be prepared to watch the Bucs of 2009-2015 resemble the past decade of Cincinnati, Cleveland, Buffalo et al
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*Gruden record for Bucs past six years in December/January games 9-21
In short, his style appears to be able to take teams forward for about 12 games and then his system collapses under the weight of it's own mediocrity as the rest of the NFL amps it up for the final month of the season.
Your arguments just don't hold water....
If the Arizona Cardinals have Denny Green, and he fails to win and take the team to the playoffs, that's just the same as having Ken Wisenhunt go to the super bowl and losing. Hey, they are both losers! Bill Bellicheck hasn't won the super bowl in a few years too, he's a loser too!
Jeff Fisher had a pretty similar record in the same span Gruden did. GM Barman would have fired him though because "what have you done for me lately" and missed out on a 1st place team. Whoops.
Why did I waste my time with a guy who doesn't know who Martyball is. Do you know who Ochoscinco is ???? Do you know who LT is???
If the Arizona Cardinals have Denny Green, and he fails to win and take the team to the playoffs, that's just the same as having Ken Wisenhunt go to the super bowl and losing. Hey, they are both losers! Bill Bellicheck hasn't won the super bowl in a few years too, he's a loser too!
Jeff Fisher had a pretty similar record in the same span Gruden did. GM Barman would have fired him though because "what have you done for me lately" and missed out on a 1st place team. Whoops.
Why did I waste my time with a guy who doesn't know who Martyball is. Do you know who Ochoscinco is ???? Do you know who LT is???
I didn't ask "who is Martyball?"
I read your earlier post where you wrote "Maryball" and asked who is that?
Later, as I tallied the 11 NFL coaches with superior records to Jon Gruden I realized your BAC had likely again impaired your typing and caught on to who it was you meant to reference
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You remain flustered at the notion of an NFL head coach being dismissed after six seasons with only two playoff games - both losses.
Is there any other man in the past 20 years who has coached an NFL team for six years without a playoff win who was retained for a seventh season?
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I read your earlier post where you wrote "Maryball" and asked who is that?
Later, as I tallied the 11 NFL coaches with superior records to Jon Gruden I realized your BAC had likely again impaired your typing and caught on to who it was you meant to reference
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You remain flustered at the notion of an NFL head coach being dismissed after six seasons with only two playoff games - both losses.
Is there any other man in the past 20 years who has coached an NFL team for six years without a playoff win who was retained for a seventh season?
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Hahahahhaha
"Who is Martyball"
"Martyball", who is he.
You really love to argue don't you? Jon Gruden didn't win a super bowl since he last won a super bowl so they should just fire him. LMAO.
The Lions coach and Bill Bellicheck didn't win the super bowl last year so they are both losers.
"Jon Gruden was a bad coach and I agree they should have fired him but Raheem Morris the new coach will do worse because he doesn't have talent..."
I don't think I've ever seen you post in the NFL section, but here you come in and troll about Gruden. Funny.
"Who is Martyball"
"Martyball", who is he.
You really love to argue don't you? Jon Gruden didn't win a super bowl since he last won a super bowl so they should just fire him. LMAO.
The Lions coach and Bill Bellicheck didn't win the super bowl last year so they are both losers.
"Jon Gruden was a bad coach and I agree they should have fired him but Raheem Morris the new coach will do worse because he doesn't have talent..."
I don't think I've ever seen you post in the NFL section, but here you come in and troll about Gruden. Funny.
Has there been any other man in the past 30 years who has coached six seasons in the NFL for one team without winning a playoff game who was retained for a seventh season?
Please tell me if so.
Perhaps Gruden's utter mediocrity for six seasons is something that happens frequently in the NFL and there's many such coaches who are retained. I'm sure you can tell me who they are.
Please tell me if so.
Perhaps Gruden's utter mediocrity for six seasons is something that happens frequently in the NFL and there's many such coaches who are retained. I'm sure you can tell me who they are.
ointer:
Not really. I do like to ask questions however.
And I look forward to your answering the one I posed about how many other men have coached six years on same time without a playoff win and then been retained for a seventh year. The only one I can find in past 20+ years is Marvin Lewis.
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Blaming Gruden and not the Tampa Bay front office for their failures is like blaming the Raider coaches and not Al Davis. Your posts show a complete lack of understanding of how the NFL really works. Your take on Gruden is so far off in left field that you are beyond the bleachers. In 2003, the Titans won 13 games and barely lost atNew England in the Playoffs. The Titans won 9 games in the following two years. Yet you seem to think that Fisher is a better coach than Gruden. Well let me clue you in. Gruden has a ring and Fisher does not. Now who is the better coach?
You just like ripping the Bucs. Your knowledge of football will be challenged by myself quite often. I have been around much longer than you, and make a living wagering on these games. I will put you to the test this year. I will be looking for informative posts from you, not ramblings based on a bunch of opinion.
You just like ripping the Bucs. Your knowledge of football will be challenged by myself quite often. I have been around much longer than you, and make a living wagering on these games. I will put you to the test this year. I will be looking for informative posts from you, not ramblings based on a bunch of opinion.
The really far part of Left Field is thinking
Raheem Morris = Jon Gruden.
It's such a stupid though it's comical. That's like saying the Giants should release Eli Manning and sign Jason Campbell because Eli Manning never won a super bowl since he won the super bowl and both guys didn't win last year so they are equal.
Raheem Morris = Jon Gruden.
It's such a stupid though it's comical. That's like saying the Giants should release Eli Manning and sign Jason Campbell because Eli Manning never won a super bowl since he won the super bowl and both guys didn't win last year so they are equal.
BigDaddyQH draws the line: You just like ripping the Bucs.
Bar: True dat. It's admittedly like shooting fish in a barrel since 2002, so I don't brag about it.
BD: Your knowledge of football will be challenged by myself quite often.
Bar: Cool. See my question in post and let me know if I've overlooked another man other than Marvin Lewis getting more of a pass than given to Jon Gruden following his 98 game streak without a playoff win.
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BDQ: I have been around much longer than you
Bar: Are you sure?
BDQ:... and make a living wagering on these games.
Bar: Excellent. I look forward to your posted selections because the NFL has traditionally been tough for me to make a profit and I can use more guys who can beat it to the tune of Making a Living.
BDQ: I will put you to the test this year. I will be looking for informative posts from you, not ramblings based on a bunch of opinion.
Bar: Well, no telling how I'll score on my "test". But once the season begins, you'll likely see that I make most of my own selections using a very actuarial approach, so I'm pretty much only dealing with factual data.
Now, as to the value of the conclusions I draw from said data....heh....We'll see soon enough.
Again I certainly look forward to the insight from "BigDaddyQH" in that Compton (smile)
Bar: True dat. It's admittedly like shooting fish in a barrel since 2002, so I don't brag about it.
BD: Your knowledge of football will be challenged by myself quite often.
Bar: Cool. See my question in post and let me know if I've overlooked another man other than Marvin Lewis getting more of a pass than given to Jon Gruden following his 98 game streak without a playoff win.
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BDQ: I have been around much longer than you
Bar: Are you sure?
BDQ:... and make a living wagering on these games.
Bar: Excellent. I look forward to your posted selections because the NFL has traditionally been tough for me to make a profit and I can use more guys who can beat it to the tune of Making a Living.
BDQ: I will put you to the test this year. I will be looking for informative posts from you, not ramblings based on a bunch of opinion.
Bar: Well, no telling how I'll score on my "test". But once the season begins, you'll likely see that I make most of my own selections using a very actuarial approach, so I'm pretty much only dealing with factual data.
Now, as to the value of the conclusions I draw from said data....heh....We'll see soon enough.
Again I certainly look forward to the insight from "BigDaddyQH" in that Compton (smile)
Two questions for barman. First,if a poster has the word "Banned" underneath his name, he has been banned from here. Is that correct?
Second, and more important question. What is your take on Pre-season? Do you wager on the games at all? We all know the scenario. Starters play a little in games 1 and 2, a half in game 3, and possibly not at all in game 4. I am torn between wagering or not wagering. I mean I have all kinds of pages worth of data, but does it really mean anything? Will coaches and players take this pre-season more seriously because of what happend last year to starters, especially QB's?
Second, and more important question. What is your take on Pre-season? Do you wager on the games at all? We all know the scenario. Starters play a little in games 1 and 2, a half in game 3, and possibly not at all in game 4. I am torn between wagering or not wagering. I mean I have all kinds of pages worth of data, but does it really mean anything? Will coaches and players take this pre-season more seriously because of what happend last year to starters, especially QB's?
1) Yes, that means the poster is currently Banned. Such Bans range from a couple weeks to a few months to (in more extreme cases) permanent
preemptive reply to your next question...Poster C-Gold is off for 90 Days due to problems in another part of the RxForum
2) I myself have in the past rarely placed real wagers on NFL preseason. Often that's been because in August I have not had real $$ loaded with any sportsbook, so I don't even bother to cap it, chat about it or bet on it.
That noted...I do have contact with a small circle of longtime capping friends who have their own low-traffic sports forum and in past seasons I know they've had some fairly reasonable success during the four weeks of NFL preseason. I do happen to have a Modestly Endowed offshore balance this year, so I'll be checking in with them and what I find from them of value, I'll bring back over here to the Rx NFL Forum.
