Socialized Medicine..from a Canadian perspective

[GasMan]

Kcameron...not sure how you can even make a stance on Canadians paying less taxes.

Under your system I would pay over 55% in just income tax and GST/PST/HST.

Add to the fact that your gas taxes (35% per dollar) and other outlandish consumption taxes, and I am well over 60%. Maybe not the 70% I said but I have not done as much research as I should. Throw in the fact that the cost of living is probably 20-30% higher in Canada, and your taxes grow exponentially. Slice and dice it however you want, socialism is EXPENSIVE.

Here are a few examples of your socialist dollars at work..and your health care is not even a TRUE socialistic enterprise...just think if it was.

Province rate (%) combined fed./prov. rate (%) note
British Columbia 7 12 Officially known as the Social Service Tax [1]
Alcohol is taxed at 10% [2]

Alberta 0 5 Alberta has no provincial sales tax. There is a 4% tax on lodging.

Saskatchewan 5 10 Reduced from 7% on 28 October 2006 [3]
There is a separate 10% liquor consumption tax. The non-alcoholic portion of a restaurant meal is not taxed.

Manitoba 7 12
Ontario 8 13 PST is usually 8%, but is 5% on lodging, 10% on entertainment and alcohol at restaurants and 12% on alcohol at retail stores on top of the flat LCBO liquor markups. [4]

Quebec 7.5 12.875 Provincial rate is nominally 7.5%, federal 5% GST is also applied on top, effectively 7.875%

Prince Edward Island 10 15.5 Provincial rate is nominally 10%, federal 5% GST is also applied on top, so effectively 10.5%

New Brunswick 13 *Harmonized Sales Tax includes provincial tax and GST
Nova Scotia 13
Newfoundland and Labrador 13


[edit] External links

 

[Railbird]

US Doctors are basically serial killers, last people in the world you should see. 90% of American are drug addicts.

 

[GasMan]

US Doctors are basically serial killers, last people in the world you should see. 90% of American are drug addicts.

:nohead:

 

[punter]

Rail, I have looked at it and you are not quite a consistent enough handicapper to make a good fade and I dont understand that.

 

[barman]

US Doctors are basically serial killers, last people in the world you should see. 90% of American are drug addicts.

lol...Seems to be your favorite imaginary percentage, BIRD

"90% of Houston Police Dept is African-American!"

:lol:

 

[quantumleap]

We already have a form of a socialized legal system in the US. Everyone is guaranteed legal representation if they cannot afford it so there are socialized systems that do work.

With that being said, I believe we should guarantee health services for everyone under 18. This does not mean all the bells and whistles but does mean to cover every child with annual physicals, innoculations, etc. In other words, basic care.

 

[barman]

Good points QLEAP

It should also be noted that close to 100 million Americans currently exist with almost all of their health care coverage provided by either state, local or federal government subsidy.

To suggest that such subsidies "cannot work successfully" belies the fact that for about 1/3 of Americans they do in fact work, although certainly worthy of scrutiny for viable ways to improve access and delivery.

 

[rolltide]

reminds me of an SAT question- so if 90% of the HPD is black and 90% of american's are addicted to drugs then what percentage of the HPD are black and on drugs?

The only issue I have with socialized healthcare is the disappearance of great specialists in their field. I know through my dad's cancer and a friend's cancer that they'd be dead right now if they were not introduced to phenomenal doctors outside of most people's means. Whether or not you consider it "fair" I could care less. My question is what happens to these specialists? You really think they stick around to earn a helluva lot less money?

I've talked with professionals in Canada and they are fairly disgusted with their healthcare coverage, opting to take trips south to get great medical care and pay out of pocket.

 

[Ricboff]

reminds me of an SAT question- so if 90% of the HPD is black and 90% of american's are addicted to drugs then what percentage of the HPD are black and on drugs?

The only issue I have with socialized healthcare is the disappearance of great specialists in their field. I know through my dad's cancer and a friend's cancer that they'd be dead right now if they were not introduced to phenomenal doctors outside of most people's means. Whether or not you consider it "fair" I could care less. My question is what happens to these specialists? You really think they stick around to earn a helluva lot less money?

I've talked with professionals in Canada and they are fairly disgusted with their healthcare coverage, opting to take trips south to get great medical care and pay out of pocket.

Interesting, 'disappearance of great specialists'? that's a first. Im in the health care field, can you provide a link for this, or is pure anecdotal?

Canada's healthcare system certainly has leaks as I outlined above and will slowly gravitate to providing the OPTION for its citizens to pay additionally to get quicker care (private clinics), imo. That said the quality of our doctors is high. You may find this surprising but we are now getting MD's that had left to USA for higher pay, now, are coming back to Canada. We are trying to address issues.

Of course, America has her own 'issues' on health care, as you well know---financial sustainability for one.

 

[Ricboff]

Kcameron...not sure how you can even make a stance on Canadians paying less taxes.

Under your system I would pay over 55% in just income tax and GST/PST/HST.

Add to the fact that your gas taxes (35% per dollar) and other outlandish consumption taxes, and I am well over 60%. Maybe not the 70% I said but I have not done as much research as I should. Throw in the fact that the cost of living is probably 20-30% higher in Canada, and your taxes grow exponentially. Slice and dice it however you want, socialism is EXPENSIVE.

Here are a few examples of your socialist dollars at work..and your health care is not even a TRUE socialistic enterprise...just think if it was.

Province rate (%) combined fed./prov. rate (%) note
British Columbia 7 12 Officially known as the Social Service Tax [1]
Alcohol is taxed at 10% [2]

Alberta 0 5 Alberta has no provincial sales tax. There is a 4% tax on lodging.

Saskatchewan 5 10 Reduced from 7% on 28 October 2006 [3]
There is a separate 10% liquor consumption tax. The non-alcoholic portion of a restaurant meal is not taxed.

Manitoba 7 12
Ontario 8 13 PST is usually 8%, but is 5% on lodging, 10% on entertainment and alcohol at restaurants and 12% on alcohol at retail stores on top of the flat LCBO liquor markups. [4]

Quebec 7.5 12.875 Provincial rate is nominally 7.5%, federal 5% GST is also applied on top, effectively 7.875%

Prince Edward Island 10 15.5 Provincial rate is nominally 10%, federal 5% GST is also applied on top, so effectively 10.5%

New Brunswick 13 *Harmonized Sales Tax includes provincial tax and GST
Nova Scotia 13
Newfoundland and Labrador 13


[edit] External links

are you to be taken seriously? HOW do our taxes grow exponentially? (rest assured you're no math major)

I have dual citizenship. I do not pay .60c to taxes for every dollar I spend. Where are you getting this figure (you have adjusted it from 70% to now 60%,lol) ? Some of the taxes you cite are not paid on all items, do you even understand this?

20-30% higher cost of living?? please provide a link, try not to make these numbers out to suit your agenda.

btw, Canada's corporate tax rate is lower than USA, and shall be the lowest of all G7 nations come 2012. My health care corp is taxed at 16.5% for the first $400k.

 

[rolltide]

Ric...anecdotally, the interest in spending your early life preparing to practice medicine for much less money becomes far less appealing. If you are already there and this system turns socialist causing you a massive loss in expected income, since you no longer "set your price", then it comes down to your own motivation as far as staying up to date on bleeding-edge cures and procedures. I don't think there's an American alive that does not believe massive changes need to take effect in our healthcare system whether it's regarding the $20 aspirin or doctor's afraid to help people because of malpractice threats on the other side of the door.

in short, I'm a small government guy. when gov't involves itself, things go wrong. gov't intervening in everything that touches healthcare will not be a good thing, but an absolute disaster.


as far as a hint to what I described before here's an excerpt from the AAPS comparing Russia's socialist healthcare system to a potential US system...

Bypass operations, now routine in the U.S. (300,000 per year), remain rare in Russia (3,000 per year). Most are done by American-trained doctors at special facilities reserved for political leaders. Heart surgery is "free" for Russian citizens, but 98 percent of those needing bypass operations die without getting them. Patients suffer and die on interminable waiting lists. Some choose not to even seek needed care. Dr. Yevgeny Rogozin, of Moscow's Cardiology Center, reveals that "Many people in this country are afraid to let someone take a knife to their heart." What they fear are the scalpels wielded by socialists.
Why is this so? Because decades of socialism have replaced conscientious medical professionals with low-skilled, mindless bureaucrats. Scrupulous rationality and independent thinking are the key traits of a good doctor. But these are the very traits penalized, and then destroyed, by socialism. Under socialism, doctors have no freedom to choose the terms under which they work: not whom they treat, nor how, nor at what price. They must surrender their private concerns and serve the "public interest." There is no profit in being a good Russian doctor --- so good doctors disappear. Patients are thus left in the incompetent hands of those who are skilled --- not in advanced medical procedures --- but in obedience to government directives.
In medicine, as in other fields, the socialists must turn to the capitalists for help. American medicine has been the envy of the world, because at its heart stands the independent doctor, left free to think and act by the standard of his own rational self-interest. His judgment is not subordinated to the dictates of government bureaucrats.

 

[HiPockets]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/29/AR2008112901025.html?hpid=topnews

 

[rolltide]

there's a very good discussion going on right now regarding healthcare at www.prrradio.com

 

[GasMan]

are you to be taken seriously? HOW do our taxes grow exponentially? (rest assured you're no math major)

I have dual citizenship. I do not pay .60c to taxes for every dollar I spend. Where are you getting this figure (you have adjusted it from 70% to now 60%,lol) ? Some of the taxes you cite are not paid on all items, do you even understand this?

20-30% higher cost of living?? please provide a link, try not to make these numbers out to suit your agenda.

btw, Canada's corporate tax rate is lower than USA, and shall be the lowest of all G7 nations come 2012. My health care corp is taxed at 16.5% for the first $400k.

Do you see anywhere where I say you pay 60c tax on every dollar you spend? No. 60c + out of every dollar I MAKE would go towards taxes. YES..YOure no English major are you?

2nd, I said I would be OVER 60%, maybe not quite 70%. My bad, lol.

By the way, I grew up in Detroit Michigan and spent a good portion of my life in Canada. I also went to a border university, and spent almost ALL of my night life in Canada. I do know what groceries, beer, cars, gas, clothes, cigarettes, and so on and so on cost in Canada. IT IS FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

Last time I was there about $6 per gallon (whatever that comes out to in litres) for gas. And that was when it was under $2 p/ gallon in the states (not meaning now).

And who is talking about corporate taxes? I am talking about MY taxes. Quit trying to make shit up to suit your story.

BOTTOM LINE IS I would pay well over 60% in taxes to live there...55% JUST in income tax and provincial taxes. About 20% higher than what I am paying in the states..

Oh, and my grandfather was a dual too..doesnt mean shit. Just means his wife was Canadian and he got his dual. Doesnt mean he knew jack shit about Canadia taxes and cost of living.

How bout your fucking housing? RIDICULOUS..I would like to see the average cost per square foot in Canada..

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 198px; HEIGHT: 365px" cellPadding=6 width=198 bgColor=#99cc66><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE style="WIDTH: 246px; HEIGHT: 288px" width=246><TBODY><TR><TD>British Columbia</TD><TD>$444,589</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ontario</TD><TD>$298,630</TD></TR><TR><TD>Northwest Territories</TD><TD>$272,779</TD></TR><TR><TD>Alberta</TD><TD>$352,421</TD></TR><TR><TD>Yukon</TD><TD>$228,033</TD></TR><TR><TD>Quebec </TD><TD>$214,070</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nova Scotia </TD><TD>$192,160</TD></TR><TR><TD>Newfoundland & Labrador</TD><TD>$181,269</TD></TR><TR><TD>Manitoba</TD><TD>$190,354</TD></TR><TR><TD>Saskatchewan </TD><TD>$237,604</TD></TR><TR><TD>New Brunswick</TD><TD>$141,255</TD></TR>

Average House Prices
July 2008 (C$)

<TR><TD>Prince Edward Island</TD><TD>$145,852</TD></TR><TR><TD>National</TD><TD>$302,298</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Source: The Canadian Real Estate Association </TD></TR>​

</TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And why are prescription drugs NOT covered in your health care system?

Lets not forget the unemployment insurance and the CPCtaken out of your check each month....

What is not subject to GST? Pretty short fucking list.

Here is a list of items that are sold without collecting GST:

• basic groceries;
• prescription drugs and most medical devices;
• most health, medical, and dental services;
• residential rents, including university residences and boarding houses;
• purchases of used homes;
• local or municipal bus services and passenger ferry services;
• legal aid services;
• most banking services; and
• most educational services, including tuition fees to publicly funded colleges and universities, and charges for certain courses in private vocational schools.

SOCIALISM IS EXPENSIVE and Canada is not eve a TRUE socialist country. Privatization is becoming more and more commonplace..wonder why?

 

[HiPockets]

Code words for corporate shills include 'socialized medicine'. 'cost of doing business', and 'taxed 70 cents on every dollar earned'. Liar corporate republicans masquerading as libertarians are the other ass cheek of the same loud mouthed ignorant business-subsidized late night conservative hate radio. What is amazing is that given the destruction that our patriotic conservatives have wrought on the US and world community over the last seven years, that these shameless pricks still trot their line as if loud mouthed volume and cut and paste posts will absolve and escape responsibility from running this county into the ground.

 

[barman]

. My question is what happens to these specialists? You really think they stick around to earn a helluva lot less money?

Of course they do.

A 50% pay cut (just grabbing a percentage out of thin air here) for a guy making $1million per year still leaves him in the top 1/4 of 1% of US wage earners.

I hardly think he is going to abandon the field of medicine if his specialty only delivers him $40K per month net income.

 

[GasMan]

Of course they do.

A 50% pay cut (just grabbing a percentage out of thin air here) for a guy making $1million per year still leaves him in the top 1/4 of 1% of US wage earners.

I hardly think he is going to abandon the field of medicine if his specialty only delivers him $40K per month net income.

Typical socialist attitude. Why should anyone get rich, just because I cant? :drink:<------Kool Aid

Let me ask you this..Do you think a guy who operates on your brain or spine should make $1million a year?

 

[Ricboff]

Do you see anywhere where I say you pay 60c tax on every dollar you spend? No. 60c + out of every dollar I MAKE would go towards taxes. YES..YOure no English major are you?

2nd, I said I would be OVER 60%, maybe not quite 70%. My bad, lol.

By the way, I grew up in Detroit Michigan and spent a good portion of my life in Canada. I also went to a border university, and spent almost ALL of my night life in Canada. I do know what groceries, beer, cars, gas, clothes, cigarettes, and so on and so on cost in Canada. IT IS FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

Last time I was there about $6 per gallon (whatever that comes out to in litres) for gas. And that was when it was under $2 p/ gallon in the states (not meaning now).

And who is talking about corporate taxes? I am talking about MY taxes. Quit trying to make shit up to suit your story.

BOTTOM LINE IS I would pay well over 60% in taxes to live there...55% JUST in income tax and provincial taxes. About 20% higher than what I am paying in the states..

Oh, and my grandfather was a dual too..doesnt mean shit. Just means his wife was Canadian and he got his dual. Doesnt mean he knew jack shit about Canadia taxes and cost of living.

How bout your fucking housing? RIDICULOUS..I would like to see the average cost per square foot in Canada..

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 198px; HEIGHT: 365px" cellPadding=6 width=198 bgColor=#99cc66><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE style="WIDTH: 246px; HEIGHT: 288px" width=246><TBODY><TR><TD>British Columbia</TD><TD>$444,589</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ontario</TD><TD>$298,630</TD></TR><TR><TD>Northwest Territories</TD><TD>$272,779</TD></TR><TR><TD>Alberta</TD><TD>$352,421</TD></TR><TR><TD>Yukon</TD><TD>$228,033</TD></TR><TR><TD>Quebec </TD><TD>$214,070</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nova Scotia </TD><TD>$192,160</TD></TR><TR><TD>Newfoundland & Labrador</TD><TD>$181,269</TD></TR><TR><TD>Manitoba</TD><TD>$190,354</TD></TR><TR><TD>Saskatchewan </TD><TD>$237,604</TD></TR><TR><TD>New Brunswick</TD><TD>$141,255</TD></TR>

Average House Prices

July 2008 (C$)​

​

<TR><TD>Prince Edward Island</TD><TD>$145,852</TD></TR><TR><TD>National</TD><TD>$302,298</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Source: The Canadian Real Estate Association </TD></TR>

</TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

And why are prescription drugs NOT covered in your health care system?

Lets not forget the unemployment insurance and the CPCtaken out of your check each month....

What is not subject to GST? Pretty short fucking list.


Here is a list of items that are sold without collecting GST:

• basic groceries;
• prescription drugs and most medical devices;
• most health, medical, and dental services;
• residential rents, including university residences and boarding houses;
• purchases of used homes;
• local or municipal bus services and passenger ferry services;
• legal aid services;
• most banking services; and
• most educational services, including tuition fees to publicly funded colleges and universities, and charges for certain courses in private vocational schools.

SOCIALISM IS EXPENSIVE and Canada is not eve a TRUE socialist country. Privatization is becoming more and more commonplace..wonder why?

you still have not shown how my tax situation or the average Cdn is at 60%. Please do. PROVIDE A LINK. (Of course my tax situation is no where near that, as my practice is incorporated.)


I thought my stance was rather clear, guess not as you missed it--- I repeat, I'm for socialized medicine in Canada, with a provision that its citizens have the option for private care. Where did I say socialized medicine is a utopia?

Also, you havent addressed the following:

'your taxes grow exponentially'? and you havent provided a LINK as to our cost of living being 20-30% more. Is this your experience as a student as things were' fucking expensive' when you were partying in Canada?

I for one am very much looking forward to how Mr.Obama plans to increase govt YET lower taxes. Enjoy your lower taxes, I got a hunch they wont last for long. Just give it time.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08783r.pdf

 

[GasMan]

Actually I found those numbers in a quick search

USA 15.2% GDP $6714 per person
Canada 10% GDP $3678 per person

And thats for every canadian getting treated for any problems which is not the case in the states as a lot of people dont get treatment for a lot of shit.

So that shows you that some people in the states are making a lot of money off peoples health.

An clip from an article from the NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine).

That only 70 percent of total health care funding in Canada<SUP> </SUP>comes from the public sector — less than in many European<SUP> </SUP>countries but considerably more than in the United States —<SUP> </SUP>reflects the fact that private payments are common for other<SUP> </SUP>expenditures, including drugs, dental services, optometry, and<SUP> </SUP>home care. Private insurance and private care are also common<SUP> </SUP>in niche areas, such as work-related injuries and cosmetic surgery.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/16/1661

Another interesting quote..

The Court's majority found that "waiting lists for health care<SUP> </SUP>services have resulted in deaths, have increased the length<SUP> </SUP>of time that patients have to be in pain and have impaired patients'<SUP> </SUP>ability to enjoy any real quality of life."<SUP>3</SUP> Although the decision<SUP> </SUP>was specific to Quebec, it implies that provincial governments<SUP> </SUP>cannot ban private care unless they guarantee that the public<SUP> </SUP>system will meet patients' needs without excessive waits. In<SUP> </SUP>a 2005 opinion poll, 80 percent of physicians and 65 percent<SUP> </SUP>of the public thought the ruling would reduce waiting times.<SUP>4</SUP><SUP> </SUP>The public, however, was otherwise divided: 43 percent agreed<SUP> </SUP>that it "will allow individuals choice and the ability to control<SUP> </SUP>their own health care"; 54 percent believed "it will ultimately<SUP> </SUP>weaken the public health system that so many people rely on."<SUP> </SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>NEJM just so happens to be the MOST respected medical journal in the US, and more than likely North America.</SUP>

Looks more like to me that Canadian people CANNOT get treated for everything they want.

 

[rolltide]

Of course they do.

A 50% pay cut (just grabbing a percentage out of thin air here) for a guy making $1million per year still leaves him in the top 1/4 of 1% of US wage earners.

I hardly think he is going to abandon the field of medicine if his specialty only delivers him $40K per month net income.

well let's use real numbers, shall we?

The average Canadian cardiologist with 10-19 years of experience makes 130k (CAD) according to PayScale Canada.

The average starting salary for an American cardiologist is 300k (USD) with a bump to 450-500k expected within 5 years. With 10-20 years of experience you're looking at 700k/year vs 130k (CAD), which is roughly 103k USD. Study for 15-20 years to pull in 100k instead of 700k? ouch!

is it any wonder than why 1 in 9 physicians in Canada let the country educate them only to fly south for the money? see http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070409/cda_doctors_070409?s_name=&no_ads=
- basically two of their 17 medical schools are doing nothing but teaching doctors how to work in the USA while Canada itself faces a shortage of doctors. hmm, I wonder why they leave?