So you think online poker is honest?.....PLEASE look at this hand

[Born2Run]

"4) NEVER have I ever seen one of them leave without winning"

I took the opportunity yesterday to look for said player several times....for 1 thing he was multi tabling 10/20 when there were full table 30/60 being played. if i knew what cards were coming id be in the biggest game i could find..but anyway, he seems to buy in for $500 at 2-3 tables at a time, so we know he's got a nice bankroll. also i ckd the tourny players database and he never plays any at all, so this multi tabling is what he does full time.......i watched him in the aft for about an hr and last night for probably 2 hrs.....in the aft he bought in to 2 tables, lost his entire 500 on 1 and was at 430 when he quit the other..last night he was on 2 tables, got 1 up to about 600 when he chased some hands and found himself down to 125, at this point he quit the other game at 435 and started trying to get his money back on the table where he was at 125....for an hr he bounced around and eventually went broke...

But i did see a play that he likes to do that i think is what he may have done to you in that 1 st hand, i saw him do this several times and although it lost for him last night i can see how at times he may be able to win big pots doing it.....heres what i think he was doing.

When a player would enter the pot with say a Q showing and raise the pot he would put him on a big pr. now when a player starts out with a big pr in 7 card what they will usually do is bet the crap out of it trying to get as many people out the pot as possible and win the hand before anyone can improve, make it very costly to draw out on him in other words.....but Chen seemed to relish this situation and would call that raise everytime with nothing and then try to hit something , if he did hit say 2 pr or better the player betting his pckt pr on every street would lose a big pot....i saw him do this probably 6-8 times and last night anyway it only worked in his favor twice and he lost a good bit trying to draw out on these guys, but i could see how if the results were reversed he would have cleaned up on these guys......now you would think that someone who thinks they have a system like this knows that it is +ev over time, im not sure thats the caes cus again if he was sure it pd off he would be doing it at the 30/60 table instead of 10/20.......im going to watch him some more in the next week to see how it goes for him and if what im seeing is what he is actually doing but heres my conclusion so far.........this guy has a huge bankroll that he doesnt mind gambling with and he has found an angle he likes to shoot.the reason i say that is despite being down to 125 and quiting his 2nd game to try to catch up he never stopped trying this play when it looked available to him.......AND if i can see that this is what he does EVERYTIME the opportunity presents itself i believe he might be setting himself up to get his money taken from him......if i know this is what he's doing i think i can work him for his roll ........ofcourse playing 10/20 is way over my normal bankroll but if he's still doing this by say weds or thurs i may sit down at his table and give him a run.if i had say a 3 flush or a 3 straight with a big door card showing and raised the pot he would jump on it thinking i was betting the big pr.when i actually have a lot of outs to improve my hand, he's looking for people betting hands that dont have a lot of outs to improve but are best after 3 cards....hopefully he doesnt read this forum and we are looking to drain him dry soon.........:drink:

FINALLY a legitimate reply!

The fact that he played the next day makes this case different from what I experienced in the past.......and the fact that you observed him leaving after losing at several games also makes him not like the others before.......BUT..........ok, say we have people in the world running 100's of thousands of hands through a computer searching for an advantage and find some, thats still having an unfair advantage. The hand I played in, how could I have defended that? Check my q's? No way, and if there is a syndicate playing all of these hands in that situation because in the long run they will win $$$ then I want no part of it. Most people agree that the poker websites must lean their algorythm in the favor of creating more "action" hands. Anybody that has played alot of live games knows that they get a much higher % of hands qualifying to play online vs the live game. Hell even with automatic shufflers I have sat at a live game for 2 hours and not had 1 playable hand. Never has that happened to me online.

It's definitely interesting, and i'm sure there are others doing the same thing.

 

[Matt24]

FINALLY a legitimate reply!

Most people agree that the poker websites must lean their algorythm in the favor of creating more "action" hands.

"Most" is pretty questionable. I highly disagree with this and most sane players people agree with me.

 

[QuickLearner]

Anybody that has played alot of live games knows that they get a much higher % of hands qualifying to play online vs the live game. Hell even with automatic shufflers I have sat at a live game for 2 hours and not had 1 playable hand. Never has that happened to me online.

What's 2 hours' worth of live stud? Forty five hands? I've had stretches that long when I didn't play a hand online...plenty of times. Honestly, that "action deal" stuff is just not true. I think you're seeing a player's propensity for chasing with second best holdings and assuming that the cards enticed him into doing it. Check your Pokertracker database. If you've got more than 20-30K hands in there you'll see that the card distributions are correct. At least, everyone else who ever checked found it to be the case, so I'd guess you would as well.

If you feel that the stars are with you when you play live, then just stick to live games...play where you enjoy yourself. That's what's most important, yes?

 

[Born2Run]

ProPokerPlayer

I wanted to add 1 more thing to this. As I said before, this is the 1st time one of these "players" I observed ever played again the following day, or ever for that matter...... and take this for whatever it is worth, but my credit limit at PP when I played in that game was $6000 (and has been for as long as I can remember), and now it is $500. Apparently Party Poker reads this board.

 

[billhill999]

Why would an on-line poker site 'rig' a game?
It get's a pct of the rake, regardless of who wins or loses, right?
What does the site gain by rigging a game ?

 

[primetime21+]

Why would an on-line poker site 'rig' a game?
It get's a pct of the rake, regardless of who wins or loses, right?
What does the site gain by rigging a game ?

They would rig the game to create more action and generate more rake. Its a common theory of the conspiracy nuts. Note of course that no one has ever proven this with actual stats. And when born tried to "expose" PP, he was quickly proven wrong by Propokerplayer.

Born, your last post sounded even more paranoid and nuts then your previous posts. Now you think PP is cutting your limits because you "figured" them out and exposed them here?

 

[Born2Run]

They would rig the game to create more action and generate more rake. Its a common theory of the conspiracy nuts. Note of course that no one has ever proven this with actual stats. And when born tried to "expose" PP, he was quickly proven wrong by Propokerplayer.

Born, your last post sounded even more paranoid and nuts then your previous posts. Now you think PP is cutting your limits because you "figured" them out and exposed them here?

Primetime21.........The 1st part about creating more action to generate more rake I will agree I have never seen actual proof but heard many people say it over time. Even if they did it wouldn't bother me.

As far as my credit limit being dropped at PP, you make whatever of it that you want. I had a credit limit there for YEARS of $6000 and after posting this thread it has been dropped to $500. I am not paranoid about anything, I just want everybody to know. Decide for yourself.

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

Welcome Chen.....always room for a high roller here, dont be a stranger......

This thread is beginning to look like the Kerry-Bush threads in the political forum! you'll never change a dem to a rep or a rep to a dem and you'll never get someone who thinks its rigged or not to see it another way either....actually i might be the only guy i know who's position on this has changed over the years...i USED to honestly believe the sites were scamming every hand of every game....now dont get me wrong I STILL believe they have the capability to cheat or at least make it more profitable for the sites. some of the sites use bots (pokerblue,pokertropilis,wsex, true poker, pokerworld,etc)....other sites i beieve have their own players who may or may not have access to more info than the regular player (bodog).BUT i have YET to see a site that I believe uses the same RNG for all their games.....take poker stars, i play the rebuys there often, i see hand after hand of 3 people with premium hands that all get a piece of the flop, then i switch to the cash game and its hand after hand of fold city, nobody gets shit in the way of hands and a showdown is a rarity....the regulars here wont agree but i believe its set this way to generate action in the rebuys and rake in the cash games.......but its not even a debateable topic because as i said.you'll never change anybodys mind on these topics.......playing a lot of live poker poker and seeing some of the WORST BEATS ive ever seen anywhere has helped convince me that the online sites for the most part deal a fair game..
So i dont condemn anybodys opinion on this, but i have to tell you POKER is a heartbreaking game, the beats are horrible and can no doubt lead to questioning something......if not the fairness of the game then your own sanity for sure!! im telling you it has come very close to putting me in the nuthouse.......thankfully ive had some good inspiration from guys like Matt and Sheets and of late Bodog Ari who have helped me realize these beats are just another part of the game.....the worst part of the game no doubt!!!! but a part of it just like winning is....
So hopefully we can end this rigged or not talk now and get back to discussing the game itself......and why i cant win !!!!!!!!!!!
:cryingcry :Sad Face: :cry4: :wierdo:

 

[THERECORDKEEPER2]

MATT if you dont think that online poker sites definatly try to create more action then you head is really way up your ass! More action means more buy-ins!! Its simple and its true!

 

[giorg0s]

I onced believed online poker wasn't rigged.
But then I opened this thread

 

[QuickLearner]

Nobody's typed it in here yet, but somebody needs to say it so okay I'll get it over with.

When I win a hand it's because I am skillful; when I lose it's because these sites are all rigged against me. There. I got it off my chest. Puhleeeeeze.

Okay. I quit. I am never going to participate in one of these "it's rigged" threads again. It's a shame because I like the Rx, and since poker is my main gambling game I always had a soft spot for this Poker forum. And my new rule is going to keep me out of at least 75% of all the threads here.

The game isn't rigged, Giorg0s. Nobody "deserves" to win a hand, no matter whether they are an 80% favorite or not. And the worst stories are the ones like the OP's. In those stories the hero always complains bitterly that the game must be dishonest when somebody hangs around to beat him on the last street. You want those players to chase. Sure, it isn't fun when they catch perfect. So what? You get beat in those situations once in a while. There are ways to play profitably against fish who won't fold.

To the OP: I thought you were beginning to see reason until you told us that Party "cut your limits" to $600. I'm sorry, but that is probably the most far-fetched thing I have ever read here. The rest I can understand; you see a pattern of beats and figure it must be more than bad luck when you ought to be looking at whether your own game is weak. I see it all the time, and to be honest, I encourage it in my opponenets because it makes them easier to beat. But the 'Party lowers limits' thing is just a fabrication.

You can't argue on the one hand that Party would be interested in spiking the game to create more rake, and then on the other hand they will cut your limits so you can't play there anymore.

And to whoever created the gimmick Chen account, nice idea but try to make your first post a little funnier next time. "You had some very telling tells" did make me chuckle, though. I see the potential...keep working on it.

 

[Born2Run]

To the OP: I thought you were beginning to see reason until you told us that Party "cut your limits" to $600. I'm sorry, but that is probably the most far-fetched thing I have ever read here. The rest I can understand; you see a pattern of beats and figure it must be more than bad luck when you ought to be looking at whether your own game is weak. I see it all the time, and to be honest, I encourage it in my opponenets because it makes them easier to beat. But the 'Party lowers limits' thing is just a fabrication.

Fabrication????? Man, you are now arguing facts, not suspicions, FACTS.......WHEN I PLAYED IN THAT GAME I HAD A $6000 CREDIT LIMIT AND NOW AFTER POSTING THIS THREAD IT IS $500........those are the FACTS..... I am just telling everybody the TRUTH, details I can PROVE with my past bank statements and my current limits at PP. Not 1 thing I have said in this thread is a lie, so if you don't want to believe what are absolutely 100% truths that is your choice............geez

 

[primetime21+]

MATT if you dont think that online poker sites definatly try to create more action then you head is really way up your ass! More action means more buy-ins!! Its simple and its true!

And i am sure you are going to post up the stats to back up your claim later on in this thread.

The only people that i have met that thought online poker was rigged were losing players. For some reason, i don't think thats a coincidence.

 

[valenti]

Rigged sites

Obviously these sites are programmed by programmers. So, if they wanted to, they could tweak the system. I think we'd be naive to think they don't. I play everyday on Bodog and every day i say I'm not going back.
Every time I go in a Nl or even a 10/20 limit room, there are 2 guys in there. THey clean me out everytime when I have the best of it after the turn. You decide. They tweak them to reward the bad players or else we'd be playing against just pros. They have to keep them in the game.

 

[valenti]

Rigged sites

I kept a log on Bodog. For a short time, 13 times in 38 dollar sng, I had the higher pocket pair, when we went all-in, 13x I lost. # times I went all-in with the worst of it 3x I won. I know this is a small sample, but play there every day and you can see something is going on. It happens on every site.:cryingcry

 

[primetime21+]

Here are some stats from Full Tilt over my last 37,000 hands on that site playing mostly NL 1-2 and a small amount of NL 2-4:

Note that you are supposed to be dealt a pocket pair 1 out of every 220 hands. Over 37,000 hands i should see each pocket pair approx 168 times.

AA- 168 times (exactly 168) i have won 92.86 percent of the time i have been dealt AA. How is that rigged?

KK- 181 times and i have won 85 percent of the time.

QQ- 155 times and i have won 76 percent of the time.

JJ- 191 times and i have won 64 percent of the time.

10-10- 166 times and i have won 65 percent of the time.

And here are my stats for those same hands at party poker over my last 39,000 hands: Note i should get a pocket pair about 177 times over that span:

AA- dealt 168 times (yup, same as Full Tilt over 37,000 hands). Won 88 percent of the time.

KK- dealt 156 times and won 83 percent

QQ- Dealt 177 times and won 73 percent

JJ- dealt 181 and won 60 percent of the time.

10-10 Dealt 197 times and won 62 percent

Not only do i get pocket pairs at the approx rate that the statistics suggest, but i also win with these hands more than any other (as it should be). And i won't show the amounts won for each of these hands, but the hands that have been my big winners are my big pocket pairs.

Anyone want to come up with something rigged about these STATS?? Then again its hard to argue with someones 13 hand sample when i all can show is 76,000 hands.

And if anyone would like to see these stats i can email a screen shot of the Pokertracker screen of any hand (whether it's 2-2 or j-9s) and any site that i play at. I play mainly at Party, full tilt, but also have stats from Poker Stars, Absolute, WPEX and UB. None of these sites are rigged and none are out to get you.

Not sure what the proper protocol for exchanging email addresses is for this site, but anyone that posts here is welcome to email me or get my email.

 

[Born2Run]

Here are some stats from Full Tilt over my last 37,000 hands on that site playing mostly NL 1-2 and a small amount of NL 2-4:

Note that you are supposed to be dealt a pocket pair 1 out of every 220 hands. Over 37,000 hands i should see each pocket pair approx 168 times.

AA- 168 times (exactly 168) i have won 92.86 percent of the time i have been dealt AA. How is that rigged?

KK- 181 times and i have won 85 percent of the time.

QQ- 155 times and i have won 76 percent of the time.

JJ- 191 times and i have won 64 percent of the time.

10-10- 166 times and i have won 65 percent of the time.

And here are my stats for those same hands at party poker over my last 39,000 hands: Note i should get a pocket pair about 177 times over that span:

AA- dealt 168 times (yup, same as Full Tilt over 37,000 hands). Won 88 percent of the time.

KK- dealt 156 times and won 83 percent

QQ- Dealt 177 times and won 73 percent

JJ- dealt 181 and won 60 percent of the time.

10-10 Dealt 197 times and won 62 percent

Not only do i get pocket pairs at the approx rate that the statistics suggest, but i also win with these hands more than any other (as it should be). And i won't show the amounts won for each of these hands, but the hands that have been my big winners are my big pocket pairs.

Anyone want to come up with something rigged about these STATS?? Then again its hard to argue with someones 13 hand sample when i all can show is 76,000 hands.

And if anyone would like to see these stats i can email a screen shot of the Pokertracker screen of any hand (whether it's 2-2 or j-9s) and any site that i play at. I play mainly at Party, full tilt, but also have stats from Poker Stars, Absolute, WPEX and UB. None of these sites are rigged and none are out to get you.

Not sure what the proper protocol for exchanging email addresses is for this site, but anyone that posts here is welcome to email me or get my email.

Ok, tell me in your database of 76,000+ hands how many times you won a hand calling $20 after the flop with 4s,6s,2s,Kh,Jd .? ........ and then 4s,6s,2s,Kh,Jd,3d after the turn another $20 bet.?..... and i'm going to guess right now that you NEVER have called a $20 bet with those 5 and 6 cards, and THAT is the hand that started this whole thread.

 

[primetime21+]

LOL, after all i posted you come back with a bad beat story which was later proven to be administered by some random bad poker player that got lucky. That is the best you have? if this were court, you would be laughed out of the courtroom with your evidence.

 

[valenti]

Well done primetime. Where do I get pokertracker from. I would like to do the
same with Bodog. I'm not bashing Bodog as I think it a great site for any kind of gambling.

 

[primetime21+]

You can go to pokertracker.com. I think its about 50 or so dollars. It is well worth the investment and pays for itself in n o time. It tracks all your play and even has a feature to rate your play and all of your opponents play.

There are some sites (i think pokersource) would give it out for free by signing up with a certain site and playing x amount of hands.

however, i do not think Pokertracker works with bodog.