Pat Tillman.......

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He made his bed...

I have much greater sympathy for the G.I.'s that were already in the service and are dying because of bush's lame leadership.

The truth is that voluteering to go to this conflict, which basically boils down to nothing more than a personal vendetta of bush's, is dumb in itself. Turning down a pro-sports contract to do so all the more.

I see nothing heroic about volunteering to go to a conflict that shouldn't be going on and has nothing to do with defending U.S. freedom. If anything as part of a democracy we have a civic duty to oppose the government when it is wrong as in this case.

While I admit I don't know much about Tillman, at face value one would be inclined to think that he was motivated to volunteer for image with a future career in politics in mind.

Of course I do feel sorry for his family's loss.
 

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Has nothing to do with freedom? Go study and learn a little bit about what's going on in Afghanistan. Please do. And please, let Pat Tillman rest in peace. The guy was willing to do what nobody else would do, and pays the ultimate price. Unbelieveable that anyone could say a bad thing about him, or assume that he had other motives. There's nothing more he could do in this world to be more unselfish than what he's already done. Let the hero be, cause that's what he is. A true American hero, in every sense of the word.
 

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Who's freedom? U.S. freedom? Also, is it not true that he just ended up in Afghanistan? As I understand it he volunteered with the idea he would be going to Iraq.

I'm not saying anything bad about the guy. It was his choice, he suffered the consequences. Again I feel for his family and their loss. I guess the word hero just has a deeper meaning for me.

How many here think of Gore as a hero just because the volunteered for Vietnam even though he could have gotten out of it?
 

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The war is unnecessary and for you to believe it is, totally is a sad thing. The only country that can get away with this is America. Every time they need money that go to the federal reserve and print more money. That institution is a private corporation and the money is an IOU on the tax payers of America. The main problem is we are printing money out of thin air and the joke is americans get the bills while the bushes and carlye group make money
 

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Illini ... that is precisley the problemAmericans just don't care what anybody thinks, you all blindly follow your millionaire leaders who go about serving their interests under the guise of so-called 'national' ones.

Has any American truly asked themselves why they were attacked ? Has any American gone to any lengths to answer that question ? Do you seriously believe that the 'radical muslims' woke up one day and arbitrarily decided to blow up some buildings ? When Americans set the standard of violence around the world and show us all that anything can be 'justified' ... how can you possibly be surprised when you become a target of the same ?

To say you live and breathe because of the young, inexperienced, uneducated, propagandized kids you send overseas to kill people - speaks volumes about the dogmatic system in which you find yourself, and much less about the intellect you use to print such words.
 

Honey Badger Don't Give A Shit
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It's always a tragedy when someone is killed for political reasons. Therefore Tillman's death is a tragedy.

But no more so than the 30 dead soldiers whose pictures are hanging on my wall at this moment.

Let's hope that those who make the decision to promote killing might use Tillman's death as another reason to use more rational alternatives.
 

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As for critical comments about our Canadian friends who post here, we notice that the Canadian government has not sanctioned killing for political reasons in well over a century.

You'd think we could learn from a prosperous country that could achieve such a peaceful political approach to the world around them.
 

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To set facts straight: He volunteered after 9/11. Served a combat tour in Iraq, then came home for a short period and was subsequently re-deployed to Afghanistan. Graduated from Arizona State with a 3.84 GPA in Marketing in 3.5 years. He gave up a multi-million dollar contract to serve in Army Rangers for approximately $19,000 a year. He and his brother enlisted in Denver so that they could avoid attendant publicity if he were to enlist in Phoenix. He resolutely refused to draw attention to himself or his service.

Op-ed from Mudbone: He was neither stupid nor deluded. He eloquently spoke of how he was grateful to people like his great-grandfather who had served in Pearl Harbor and how he wanted to do the same. While I personally don't believe in the Iraq war, I do believe he embodied a lot of the qualities that are what I believe are worthy of aspiring to.

While I am a liberal, I cannot stand silent in a forum where I normally post where people denigrate him and call into question his intelligence and motivation.

I believe his family and the family of all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, deserve the deepest sympathy amd gratitude for their sacrifice and loss.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barman:
As for critical comments about our Canadian friends who post here, we notice that the Canadian government has not sanctioned killing for political reasons in well over a century.

You'd think we could learn from a prosperous country that could achieve such a peaceful political approach to the world around them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, my bad. You're right. The world is a beautiful place, full of nothing but righteous people, and if you just mind your own business, everyone will live peacefully. Please.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by STUCCO43:
The war is unnecessary and for you to believe it is, totally is a sad thing. The only country that can get away with this is America. Every time they need money that go to the federal reserve and print more money. That institution is a private corporation and the money is an IOU on the tax payers of America. The main problem is we are printing money out of thin air and the joke is americans get the bills while the bushes and carlye group make money<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, so that's it. Bush went to war so that he could make more money. You liberals are unbelieveable. By the way, Tillman died in Afghanistan, not Iraq. You just live your happy life and don't worry about anything. And when the next Hitler comes around, just live happily under his command.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Meanstreak:
Got exactly what he signed up for ...

I'll never understand your countries' devotion to genocide in the name of world hegemony.

Thankfully he has no children. Imagine explaining "national interest" to a child who just lost their father in the name of it.

All I read about this guy is how smart he was. His agent called him a "deep and clear thinker". PLEASE !! How smart is it to turn down millions to get yourself killed in a country most Americans can't even spell.

What a complete joke this guy was. He was nothing more than a good ole boy who wanted to go "blow some shit up".

You want to start thrwoing words around like honor, courage, and bravery ? Save them for people like the Tibetan monks who - unlike so-called American war heroes are willing to DIE for their belief in peace and freedom rather than KILL for it.

When will you people EVER learn ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Canada will never understand and appreciate freedom, because they've never done a damn thing to protect it. They just live peacefully and let the U.S. take care of everything for them. Exactly, Pat Tillman died, because he was willing to die for freedom when he signed up. Sure, he could have let other people serve and protect, and he could have lived his happy life. I, like most people, would have certainly done just that. That is why he should be applauded and appreciated, because he was a better man than most. For someone to call him "a joke" and to refer to his sacrifice as someone wanting go have fun and blow stuff up is sickening. Just reprehensible.
 

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I had never heard of this Tillman guy until he got killed, but I'd like to echo Mudbone's sentiments and say that he sounds like a remarkable and talented individual. Whether you agree or disagree with the Iraq war or the Afghanistan war you have to admire the man for his courage and willingness to put his life on the line for principles he thought were worth defending.

As a side note - the Canadian vs. American stuff is fun sometimes, but in this thread I vote we give it a rest . . .
 

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Mudbone,

Thanks for the added info, with that in mind I'm now more inclined to believe he was motivated at least in part by the hopes of a future career in politics.
 

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To answer the guy about the money issue, to put a perspective on things in the USA. The biggest scam ever done on the USA. Was the creation of the Federal Reserve. The founding fathers specially put into the constitution that congress was to print our own money. Well in 1913 they passed the Federal Reserve Act which created the Federal Reserve Corporation.Some of the companys that own this are Chase bank, Lazard, Rochefellors and it cant be audited. My point is this if you had a control of money and couldnt spend it without a balanced budget you would in no way go into a war without end. We are about to go into another suppliment ontop of the 87 billion already spent 5 months ago.
Also here is a note. Check the internet on a company that had a 300$ million dollar bid on arms procurement. The company was set up by Chalapi and was a shell company. They operated out of a one room office.
 

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Oh, so that's it. Bush went to war so that he could make more money. You liberals are unbelieveable. By the way, Tillman died in Afghanistan, not Iraq. You just live your happy life and don't worry about anything. And when the next Hitler comes around, just live happily under his command.
well illini you have your wish
 

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Pat Tillman died for our sins. Like Custer and Jesus, Tillman, the former National Football League star who volunteered to serve in Afghanistan, went to his death for failed, fraudulent government policies. In case you missed the last few days of tributes, Tillman, 27, was the best and brightest, a man with everything to live for, sent to die by the worst and most cynical of men, for cruel and self-serving purposes masquerading as principles.

Killed in action in Afghanistan, Tillman received a nationally televised eulogy on every major US television network this past weekend, the type of eulogy usually reserved for fallen American icons. Unlike the nearly thousand other US deaths from our ill-fated actions in Afghanistan and Iraq, Pat's death became a public event and added to his already considerable luster as a passionate, hardworking, former football player in the NFL. To those families with servicemen killed in action whose sacrifice remains hidden, suppressed or censored, the public iconification of Pat Tillman must have seemed both gratifying yet bewildering. Grieving parents could identify with Tillman, personify the sacrifice of their own beloved child with that of this idealistic young warrior. Yet too, they must have wondered, why hadn't their own son or daughter been given a public eulogy on ESPN or Fox or on the front pages of major newspapers?

Certainly most of the all-volunteer, US military men and women who have been killed in action were once as dedicated to a patriotic ideal as Tillman. Most of them were as competitive in high school sports or academics. Most of them also had to "overcome incredible odds or were undersized"--two accolades most often heard when Tillman was mentioned.

Looking at a picture of Pat Tillman, most American men recognized an ideal of manliness lacking in ourselves and especially in our elected leaders. Does anyone see even a remote resemblance between Pat Tillman and say, Dick Cheney, George Bush or former President Bill Clinton? If Pat Tillman typified the best and brightest that America had to offer, his example was a vision of America usually found in high school history books, not the sinister vision offered by the White House.

But Pat was not the first idealistic athlete victimized by the State for its own purposes. In life--and now death--Pat resembled two similar athletes little known to most Americans. Olympic athlete Lutz Long and heavyweight boxing champion Max Schmeling both underwent glorious, much propagandized ascents and tragic falls similar to that of Tillman. Both men were German, and both opposed an evil, fascist regime that used them as poster boys--like our own jingoist media and Machiavellian State--for self-serving propaganda purposes.

Lutz Long--like Pat Tillman--resembled the high cheekboned, Teutonic ideal. A sprinter and long jumper for the German Olympic team, Long was favored to medal in the 1936 Summer Olympics held in Berlin. According to biographies of Jesse Owens (who won four gold medals in that historic Olympic event personally hosted by Adolf Hitler), Long and Owens became fast friends despite the massive propaganda and pageantry heralding Hitler's triumph of the invincible Master Race. Jesse Owens was black, and Lutz Long as white as the sheets of the KKK. Between the two stood racial separation like a fortress wall, official Nazi policy in Germany but almost a religion in America.

Despite Nazi propaganda, the German spectators gave Jesse Owens the warmest ovation of his life. Just before he entered the stadium, Owen's track coach Larry Snyder cautioned the youngster from Ohio State about a possible hostile reception that never came: "Don't let anything you hear from the stands upset you. Ignore the results and you'll be alright." But German admiration for athletic achievement--like that of all true sports enthusiasts--transcended racial prejudice. Lutz Long looked on in admiration and envy.

According to an account by Arthur Daley of The New York Times, Owens later told and retold the story of his struggle to qualify in the long jump and of Lutz Long offering consolation and advice. An inch or two taller than Owens, Long was "blond, lean, and blue-eyed, a walking advertisement for Hitler's Aryan ideal." According to Owens's reminiscences--and now popular legend--Long reportedly suggested that Jesse make a mark six inches back or place a towel six inches back of the board in order to avoid fouling. As Jesse told it later, after his final jump, Long took Owens's hand, held it high, and shouted to the crowd, "Jesse Owens! Jesse Owens!", and the entire stadium thundered with a chanting of "Jaz-ee-ooh-wenz." According to those who actually saw it, the actual moment of sportsmanship was much quieter but no less powerful: The two athletes walked off together, arm-in-arm to the dressing rooms. In truth, Owens and Long became good friends during their time in Berlin. Owens explained their friendship as "simply two uncertain young men in an uncertain world."

Lutz Long died in combat a few years later, dying like Tillman, far from the thunderous applause of stadium crowds, fighting for the Nazi regime on the occupied island of Sicily. It is doubtful that Adolf Hitler had personally sent Long to the front, as some stories suggest. Possibly Long volunteered, much like Pat Tillman. But Hitler's imperial policies killed Lutz Long, just as the thinly-disguised, expansionist policy of the Neocons killed patriotic Pat Tillman, plus a thousand other American soldiers like him. The Germans grieved upon hearing of the death of their fallen hero in battle, as we Americans now grieve for Tillman.

To oppose the State, however, carries as much--or more--physical risk, than to support it. Max Schmeling, heavyweight champion of the world, fought many formidable foes, and like Tillman, emerged larger than life when the largest and most sinister foe of all--the State--crumbled around him. Matched against the legendary Joe Louis, the "Brown Bomber" fought Schmeling in an atmosphere of race hate and propaganda--much like the poisoned sandstorm swirling in the world now. Schmeling lost his title to Louis, but the two legends remained friends, despite the virulent hatred spewing from the German and American governments, fomented by the state-supported media of both countries.

According to Louis Bulow, "During the 1936 Olympics Max Schmeling exacted a promise from Hitler that all U.S. athletes would be protected. On several occasions Hitler tried to cajole the respected boxer into joining the Nazi Party, but Schmeling vigorously refused ever to join the Nazi party or to publicize the Nazi propaganda line. Over Goebbels' personal protest, he refused to stop associating with German Jews or to fire his American Jewish manager, Joe Jacobs. Hitler never forgave Schmeling for refusing to join the Nazi party, so he had him drafted into the Paratroops and sent him on suicide missions."

As Bulow also notes: "Schmeling treasured camaraderie and friendship and somehow, each of his ring opponents became his friend. He regularly and quietly gave the down-and-out Joe Louis gifts of money, and the friendship continued after death: Schmeling paid for the funeral."

This weekend Pat Tillman was eulogized as a great American hero who made the "ultimate sacrifice." But do not allow his memory to serve as a recruitment poster for further nationalistic designs or brutal abuses of the State. If Pat Tillman is greeted at heaven's gate by Lutz Long, Jesse Owens and Max Schmeling, it will be because he served an ideal that cost him his life--in spite, not because, of State sponsored oppression.
 

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How do you all feel now ?

``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman told the Post. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.''

It's a hard lesson to learn but I think the Tillman's realize now what a waste their son's death was ... again .... "what a joke" !!

Peace.
 

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oldmantime said:
But bet your stupid ass on one thing. I support our troops and their fight 110%. A guy like Tillman, I may not agrre with. But I totally respect him and HIS Beliefs!!
God Bless .
T his has been my pet peeve for a long time , if you can go over 100 percent, where does it end? Why not support the troops 120%? 130%? 1million 1trillion%? I hear it all the time in sports, this guy gave 110 percent, well we might have won if this jackoff had given 111%. Does this bother anyone else or just me?
 

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