God given skill?
Does it bother the same group here that Michelle Obama asked folks to pray for Baracks grandma or Obama himself asked for us all to pray for J.Hudsons family? I didnt see the same vitriol being meted out when prayer was brought up on numerous other occasions.
Or because those prayers are for the benefit of others they do not qualify as 'dizzy'.
I guess the issue with Ms. Palin is that she goes a little over board on the God train...most people would prefer they paid lip service to and not use the Bible to enact policy.
It's kind of like if Jerry Rice was pulled over for a DUI...he wouldn't be given as harsh a public beatings as if for example Adam Jones was pulled over for the same infraction.
Well, personally I think the entire idea of prayer is dumb. But, it's one thing when you say your prayers for another's well being, seems like just an common gracious extension of good wishes, but it's another thing altogether when you openly pray for things to benefit yourself or claim that your actions are being controlled by God. Seems a big egotistical, and scary.
The conversation is about a micromanaging god. I don't think the Founders as a whole were under the impression that god was directing their actions. Many were Deists who didn't believe in a personal or intervening god.
I know you're smart enough to know that so I don't understand the digression.
Well I beg to differ,the list of quotes and the people who made them are numerous.
Ben Franklin:
"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
I mean the list of people who fall into this frame of mind is extensive and illustrious.
Well quotes are quotes. You can take one sentence of what someone says and take it as their belief. But you need more than that quote to actually gain the context of what is actually being said. The problem with arguing about our founding fathers is no one knows what was in their heart. I am a believer so you can bash me for it. By the way Benjamin Franklin was not a believer.
Really? Perhaps not in Christ but in God the creator it seems hes a believer.
"To Ezra Stiles, 9 March 1790 (B 12:185-6):
"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavorin a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
On June 28, 1787, Franklin made a formal motion for prayers at the Constitutional Convention. The text of the motion itself reads:
I therefore beg leave to move, That henceforth Prayers, imploring the Assistance of Heaven and its Blessing on our Deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to Business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that Service.
My quote was "I don't think the Founders as a whole were under the impression that god was directing their actions."
It's a fact that Franklin lived his life and died as a Deist as did Paine, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Ethan Allen and others. And as you know Deist believes that their god has a plan for the universe but doesn't intervene. It could be a gray area though, trying to parse the difference between having a plan and governing "the affairs of men".
Franklin fought tooth and nail and failed to have a passage from the Pennsylvania State Constitution removed that said something about the document being divinely inspired.
If you could provide more quotes where the Founders felt that god was intervening on their behalf I would be interested in reading them. I've looked but can't find any.
