Kirk Cousins, Redskins break off contract negotiations

[MantisToboggan]

It is more similar because there is no guaranteed return if you take an equity stake.

It is more similar to taking a hometown discount that trying to compare the average Joe to Cousins.

There is no guaranteed return but there is at least a potential for return. In fact, any employee taking equity rather than salary likely believes there is a very good chance that there will be return that is greater than the salary they intially passed up.

On the other hand, whatever Cousins passes up in salary is gone with no chance of any monetary benefit at a later date.

 

[Acebb]

There is no guaranteed return but there is at least a potential for return. In fact, any employee taking equity rather than salary likely believes there is a very good chance that there will be return that is greater than the salary they intially passed up.

On the other hand, whatever Cousins passes up in salary is gone with no chance of any monetary benefit at a later date.

And if Cousins takes less but wins a Super Bowl, that "lost" salary gets partially made up with endorsements and a bonus from the team.

Other than that there is no monetary benefit at a later date.

 

[MantisToboggan]

And if Cousins takes less but wins a Super Bowl, that "lost" salary gets partially made up with endorsements and a bonus from the team.

Other than that there is no monetary benefit at a later date.

I'm not sure I buy that, but it's at least a decent argument. I'm not sure a Super Bowl win makes a substantial difference in off field earnings for a guy like Cousins. How much of a bump in off field earnings did Flacco get from winning the Super Bowl? Can't imagine it was > 12 million. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Acebb]

I'm not sure I buy that, but it's at least a decent argument. I'm not sure a Super Bowl win makes a substantial difference in off field earnings for a guy like Cousins. How much of a bump in off field earnings did Flacco get from winning the Super Bowl? Can't imagine it was > 12 million. I could be wrong, though.

But that's really the point, I'm sure if Cousins brought Snyder a SB, he'd get whatever he wanted.

Here are some references otherwise

[h=1]Super Bowl MVP Is Worth Millions (To Quarterbacks)[/h]

And:

[FONT=&quot]Winning Super Bowl players also get bonuses of up to $92,000 during the run up to the Super Bowl. In addition to these playoff bonuses, some former Super Bowl stars have seen their total endorsement and salary dollars skyrocket. After the Indianapolis Colts’ 2007 Super Bowl win, star QB Peyton Manning saw his salary jump by $12 million and his endorsement earnings nearly triple.[/FONT]

 

[MantisToboggan]

But that's really the point, I'm sure if Cousins brought Snyder a SB, he'd get whatever he wanted.

Here are some references otherwise

Super Bowl MVP Is Worth Millions (To Quarterbacks)



And:

Winning Super Bowl players also get bonuses of up to $92,000 during the run up to the Super Bowl. In addition to these playoff bonuses, some former Super Bowl stars have seen their total endorsement and salary dollars skyrocket. After the Indianapolis Colts’ 2007 Super Bowl win, star QB Peyton Manning saw his salary jump by $12 million and his endorsement earnings nearly triple.

That's interesting. I'd be curious to see what the difference is for someone like Flacco vs Manning.

 

[TheFunkMonkey]

But that's really the point, I'm sure if Cousins brought Snyder a SB, he'd get whatever he wanted.

Here are some references otherwise

Super Bowl MVP Is Worth Millions (To Quarterbacks)



And:

Winning Super Bowl players also get bonuses of up to $92,000 during the run up to the Super Bowl. In addition to these playoff bonuses, some former Super Bowl stars have seen their total endorsement and salary dollars skyrocket. After the Indianapolis Colts’ 2007 Super Bowl win, star QB Peyton Manning saw his salary jump by $12 million and his endorsement earnings nearly triple.

You're off in this thread -- when an employee/executive forgoes salary-for-equity, you don't think they're assuming the equity is worth x-dollars?

When Company A offers $130k, and Company B offers $95k + y-amount of equity -- you don't think the employee is estimating the future value of equity, and then making a cost/benefit decision? They're not trying to "help" Company B by taking the lesser salary.

And to say the Super Bowl is worth millions to QBs -- ok, that's generally true. But then your example is Peyton Manning, the #1 endorser in NFL. The guy with the Manning name, the guy who stayed in college, the guy with all the QB records, the guy with the 100% clean image. How much money did the Super Bowl earn guys like Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson?

I think that's the question by Dr. Toboggan -- would Cousins instantly be in that Manning/Brady earning group, or would he be closer to the Dilfer/Johnson group.

 

[TheFunkMonkey]

guy is a chump. anyone paying him above average dollars is retarded, no heart in the guy he just chokes. Huge red flag when a team who sees you everyday doesnt want to lock you up

Unless that team is Washington (and Snyder) -- in which case, it isn't much of a red-flag.

In fact, if every team did the opposite of Washington since Snyder took control, they'd probably be in above-average shape. Don't sign Deion Sanders, don't sign Bruce Smith, don't trade-up for Robert Griffin, don't let Clinton Portis goof around, don't hire Jim Zorn.

 

[Acebb]

You're off in this thread -- when an employee/executive forgoes salary-for-equity, you don't think they're assuming the equity is worth x-dollars?

When Company A offers $130k, and Company B offers $95k + y-amount of equity -- you don't think the employee is estimating the future value of equity, and then making a cost/benefit decision? They're not trying to "help" Company B by taking the lesser salary.

Off about what, exactly? First, there is no similarity at all between a guy who’s market worth is $100,000 who stays at his company for $90,000 and Cousins taking a “team friendly” contract. The scale is different and the employer and employee motivations are different. There is no relationship what so ever.

Yes, the employee is betting on a future event where a greater financial gain is possible and Cousins would be betting on the idea that the team would use the extra money to better balance out the roster and field a more competitive team with a better chance of winning. Neither event is guaranteed. Which is why it is an appropriate analogy.

It is absolutely clear the employees of Google and Apple took lesser salaries for equity to help the company. Again, people do this every day. But, Cousins isn’t possibly taking less money to “help the company” in that manner. It is a completely different thing. I have no idea why this is being brought up as it isn't relevant.

And to say the Super Bowl is worth millions to QBs -- ok, that's generally true. But then your example is Peyton Manning, the #1 endorser in NFL. The guy with the Manning name, the guy who stayed in college, the guy with all the QB records, the guy with the 100% clean image. How much money did the Super Bowl earn guys like Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson?

I think that's the question by Dr. Toboggan -- would Cousins instantly be in that Manning/Brady earning group, or would he be closer to the Dilfer/Johnson group.

Whether the figure is $500,000 or $5 million, the figure is greater than zero. Mantis said the figure was zero which is incorrect.

Here are two references on Flacco, the one is after winning 2 playoff games, not even in the SB year.

Ravens Could See Increased Endorsements With AFC Championship Win

Flacco’s potential as pitchman grows with on-field success

 

[MantisToboggan]

Off about what, exactly? First, there is no similarity at all between a guy who’s market worth is $100,000 who stays at his company for $90,000 and Cousins taking a “team friendly” contract. The scale is different and the employer and employee motivations are different. There is no relationship what so ever.

Yes, the employee is betting on a future event where a greater financial gain is possible and Cousins would be betting on the idea that the team would use the extra money to better balance out the roster and field a more competitive team with a better chance of winning. Neither event is guaranteed. Which is why it is an appropriate analogy.

It is absolutely clear the employees of Google and Apple took lesser salaries for equity to help the company. Again, people do this every day. But, Cousins isn’t possibly taking less money to “help the company” in that manner. It is a completely different thing. I have no idea why this is being brought up as it isn't relevant.




Whether the figure is $500,000 or $5 million, the figure is greater than zero. Mantis said the figure was zero which is incorrect.

Here are two references on Flacco, the one is after winning 2 playoff games, not even in the SB year.

Ravens Could See Increased Endorsements With AFC Championship Win

Flacco’s potential as pitchman grows with on-field success

According to Forbes, Flacco makes 500k in off the field income. I'm pretty confident he'd still able to pull in something similar without the ring. So what was the ring worth? Maybe zero. It certainly wasn't worth 7 or 8 figures. Ultimately, Cousins would be giving up 10+ million to maybe see an increase of a couple hundred thousand in endorsements. There's no upside. On the other hand, passing up salary for equity in company like Apple isn't a guaranteed loser. There is actually upside.

 

[TheFunkMonkey]

It is absolutely clear the employees of Google and Apple took lesser salaries for equity to help the company.

That was nice of them. So that was their primary motivation, helping the for-profit company?

 

[bigwang]

Cousins is garbage but will get paid well by somebody this offseason.

 

[Acebb]

According to Forbes, Flacco makes 500k in off the field income. I'm pretty confident he'd still able to pull in something similar without the ring. So what was the ring worth? Maybe zero. It certainly wasn't worth 7 or 8 figures. Ultimately, Cousins would be giving up 10+ million to maybe see an increase of a couple hundred thousand in endorsements. There's no upside. On the other hand, passing up salary for equity in company like Apple isn't a guaranteed loser. There is actually upside.

No upside to playoff success and winning and/or winning a Super Bowl? That’s a pretty novel hot take considering Flacco’s entire leverage on his big contract was his playoff success. Further, Trent Dilfer is on ESPN in part because he won a Super Bowl. Joe Theismann was in the MNF booth in part because he won the Super Bowl. The “team friendly” deal isn’t about this contract, it is about what comes later. It is very myopic to suggest there is no upside.

One other point about the endorsements. Flacco is a “meh” personality and the Redskins are a much, much bigger NFL brand (and have a larger fan base) than the Ravens. The local marketing possibilities are greater for Cousins than they would be for Flacco.

Finally, I’m not talking about the Apple of today. The Apple of today has more cash than they can spend and more people want to work for Apple than Apple wants to hire. Therefore, they don’t give the regular guy a lessor salary for equity. I’m more thinking of the Apple of 1982, which was far from a sure bet. Perhaps Uber is a better analogy, but I reference Apple because the started out with nothing and grew exponentially.

 

[Acebb]

That was nice of them. So that was their primary motivation, helping the for-profit company?

That really is the question. What is Cousin’s motivation? Winning, or taking the max amount of money available out of some principle the he deserves what is equitable among his peers.

As far as a regular employee working for a company, it is hard to answer that question. The guys who started Apple didn’t do it for money, they wanted to do something nobody had done before and the money followed. (The same is true for Microsoft)

And, the number one reason people leave jobs is their manager and the #1 thing people are looking for at work is recognition/thanks. Compensation is a middling factor. I’m sure there are enough people who are willing to take an equity stake for lessor compensation in the hope they become rich, but given how many companies fail, it has to be a relatively small cohort.