HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE THIS SITUATION ??? --- I AM IN AN ETHICAL BIND

DannyMay · Jan 27, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MadCapper:
My only question is if Danny is an average 32 dollar bet man, why the hell did he have 550 in his account. That's a little much to have offshore if your avg bet is 32.

Its like someone with an average bet of 500 having about 9000 offshore.

Did he have 550 in the account for a while or did he deposit just to make this bet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Madcapper,

I had over $2500 in that account. When I opened that account over 3 years ago, I only kept $300 or so in it, and nearly all my bets were $3 to $5. The only way they can be arriving at $32 is if they are taking the average of all bets since I have been there, and yes for the first year to year and a half I didnt bet mush more than $5.

PO69 · Jan 27, 2004

Well even I dont think that he bets only $332, but I would think that $50-75 is more like it. It is not that hard to get to $500 from $50 with a few nice parlays.

I took the bcbets $125 contest winnings from OGD into $2400 in just 6 days, then I cashed out, AND THEY paid me faster than any other book ever has!

bullsye · Jan 27, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
Saturday morning I put in a play for $550. The line was a couple points off what most books had, but it was a total so that happens sometimes. It was a 1st Half line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
Fishhead,

It was off by 3 points or 3 1/2 depending on what other book you are using for comparison. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
Lander,

No I didnt middle that one. I liked the bet. It was 3 points off for a first half.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
I made that bet saturday morning and won it fair and square.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
This is no more of a bad line then the ACES Gold NE + 14 1/2 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
That line WAS NOT 10 points off. NO WHERE NEAR 10 points off. Even on saturday they claimed it was 5 points, now it is 10. I checked the lines at about 5 books and it ws either 3 or 3 1/2 off depending on which book you compare it to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Repeatedly DM says this line is out 3 or 3.5 points. Below is the reality.

from DB archives:

CRIS 1H/puckln
01/24 06:45:53am #715 Virginia
01/24 06:45:53am #716 North Carolina 8½ OPENER
01/24 07:07:01am #716 North Carolina
01/24 07:07:45am #716 North Carolina 8½
01/24 07:42:31am #715 Virginia 77½ OPENER
01/24 07:43:21am #715 Virginia 78
01/24 07:53:09am #715 Virginia 79
01/24 08:14:44am #715 Virginia 78½
01/24 08:55:12am #715 Virginia 79
01/24 08:56:28am #715 Virginia 78½
01/24 09:01:04am #715 Virginia 78
01/24 09:01:49am #715 Virginia 77½

Grande 1H/RL
01/24 08:18:14am #715 Virginia 78½ OPENER
01/24 08:18:15am #716 North Carolina -8½

Olympic 1H
01/23 10:07:48pm #716 North Carolina 8½ OPENER
01/23 10:07:50pm #715 Virginia
01/24 07:42:42am #715 Virginia 77 OPENER
01/24 07:43:43am #715 Virginia 77½
01/24 07:47:59am #715 Virginia 78
01/24 07:54:27am #715 Virginia 78½
01/24 09:01:58am #715 Virginia 77½
01/24 09:02:00am #715 Virginia 77

Pinnacle 1H
01/24 07:44:57am #716 North Carolina 8½ OPENER
01/24 07:44:57am #715 Virginia
01/24 07:44:59am #715 Virginia 78 OPENER
01/24 08:25:59am #715 Virginia

Rio 1st Half
01/24 06:54:04am #716 North Carolina 8½ OPENER
01/24 06:54:04am #715 Virginia
01/24 08:01:45am #715 Virginia 79 OPENER
01/24 08:15:10am #715 Virginia 78½
01/24 08:26:21am #716 North Carolina 9
01/24 08:48:00am #716 North Carolina 8½
01/24 09:01:36am #715 Virginia 77½

-----------------------------------

The line posted by Intertops was indeed out by 10 points.

Now that we have the facts I think you can clearly draw your own conclusions.

bryan305 · Jan 27, 2004

very sad story

sort of like when a burgler breaks into your house and sues you because he got cut on the glass.

-Slim- · Jan 27, 2004

So in conclusion, DannyMay is a liar and this is the last time we should believe anything he says?

dogball · Jan 27, 2004

General
Bottom line, i kind of owe you an apology
This line was 10 points off and like most, my opinion has changed a bit
sorry

wilheim · Jan 27, 2004

Dog - Nice move. This was a stone rip, no question.

wil.

DavidMatthews · Jan 27, 2004

I don't feel good about the line where Intertops says they were having some kind of technical difficulties and that's why he didn't get his email until very late. That sounds bogus to me... and on top of that, if it's true, if a book both puts up a bad line AND has technical difficulties all at the same time, I don't think the player should be at fault. That's too many things wrong and a business is ultimately responsible.

If I have an employee that says he is late because his child has the flu and was up all night and does it once, that's one thing.

But if my employee says his child had the flu, and his phone line was down so he couldn't call, and his car broke down so he couldn't drive, and an earthquake happened which caused the bridge to break, so he couldn't get to work... well, even if every single part of that is true, I would probably fire him anyway.

To me, there is nothing... NOTHING... more reprehensibile than a book which waits to see the probable outcome before deciding on a wager.

Danny May may have some guilt in this matter, and based on what I've read, it would appear he does... but I don't like Intertops "excuse." It doesn't hold water with me.

A book is in the business of BOOKING BETS. You put up a bad line, well maybe you should be able to get out of it with an email before the game starts. You put up a bad line AND you're having some "technical problems" and can't email. Give me a freakin break. Most places ask for your phone number. They should call the guy, send a letter by mail, use a carrier pigeon, or just plain honor the freakin bet.

They paid after it became an issue in the forums. That's great. I doubt, however, that more than 1 in 10 online bettors reads this site frequently (even though this is the biggest one on the Net).

Once the game starts, I don't care if I have an NFL game under 1,000 points... the book failed in it's responsibility as a business. It wants to book bets, then be professional. Perhaps they need insurance policies for "dumb mistakes" or whatever.

I think a book holding a bet and then honoring it if it is a loser or canceling it if it is a winner is one of the most disgusting acts that anyone or any company could do.

David

SunDevil · Jan 27, 2004

You guys all missed his admission!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DannyMay:
Dumbass, I realize that you arent very smart at all so let me help you out here. If I truly middled this play, the other side would have WON. The total points scored in the first half was 82. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmmm, Danny...if you bet under the line of 88.5 and that line was only, as you state, "2 to 3.5 points off"...would you mind telling the jury how exactly you would have won a bet on the over if the half landed on 82???? Inquiring minds wanna know...

DavidMatthews · Jan 28, 2004

In my opinion what really happened is this:

Danny May saw a line out of whack and decide to take a shot. He got a nickel down on it.

The book saw that they had put a bad line out and everyone who bet on that selection bet the under. Danny May had a nickle, and several other people had money on under.

The line manager on duty for Intertops then realized there was a big f-uck up on his shift and he was liable for a few dimes now.

He decided that the best course of action was to wait and see what happened in the game. If it turned out it was going over, he could relax and probably get a bonus for "having a good night" and taking people's money.

When it became clear that the under was going to win for the players, he went to Plan B. "Cancel the bets. It's an off line."

All the players on under had their bets canceled. If any people had over bets (doubtful) they probably got charged as losses and had the money deducted from their betting accounts.

The lines manager got kudos from his manager telling him what a good job he did.

Things flair up in the forums, because unfortunately, one of the players that got screwed posts on The Prescription.

Marketing decides that the $500 expense is worth it and gives it to Danny May, so that they can get good publicity or at least reduce the bad publicity.

Issue solved (in their minds). Next time a similar issue comes up a $500 payment will make it go away.

Meanwhile, most non-computer players will get "the treatment." As long as a Prescription poster doesn't get screwed they'll be fine. And if an Rx poster does happen to get it, a $500 greased palm will mkae this go away.

Lesson to be learned for offshore sports book operators: As long as you pretend you're responsive when people post complaints, and you grease the right palms, you'll be ok. Maybe a little negative publicity, but then a world of people will chime in how respectable you are when you finally do pay the $500 to someone, while 10 other people are getting stiffed.

David

NickDouglas · Jan 28, 2004

DannyMay knew damn well that the line was off and he made a lowlife move by betting it. He then made an even bigger lowlife move by trying to keep a $400 withdrawl error and still a bigger lowlife move by bringing the issue to a public forum and telling a horribly biased version of what happened.

What David Matthews posted is so ludicrous it hardly deserves comment. Any book that continually took shots at their customers by posting bad lines and cancelling wagers only after the results were known would lose its clientele so fast its head would spin.

SaltyBrine · Jan 28, 2004

All I can say is that it's a good thing Danny was dealing offshore. Had this episode happened with a private shop, safe to say he might not have collected anything other than some serious pain.

If you spot a line that's an obvious mistake...and this was...you don't bet it, you inform the BM of the potential error. (I'm of course assuming that this is if you're dealing with a straight BM, and not some street hustler who is looking to pull a Ron Peters maneuver.)

DarrylParsons · Jan 28, 2004

It's amazing how much one can learn about posters and books from a thread like this. Here are the main things I learned:

Like with most car accidents, it takes two bozos to make it happen.

Intertops gets kudos for paying in the end but huge question marks remain for the dubious way they went about it. They were incompetent twice -- the bad line for one and the overpayment for another. There is a clear correlation between how good a book is and how often they fvck things up. On top of that they then lied about at least 2 things: the first about the employee having to pay from his own pocket -- barf

-- and the second about the DOS attacks being the excuse for not cancelling before the game. Just go next door and use a hotmail address for Christ's sake. There are a million ways to notify your player if you really want to.

On Danny May's side, that's really low to lie about the number of points the line was off. And to accuse the General of bias even before he gives his report is also bogus. It boggles my mind how anyone could flame a guy like the General who works like a dog on behalf of players (in justified cases) for FREE. And even if you don't like the guy for whatever reason you still have to give him a chance. It takes away your credibility completely for me. You will have to get a new handle for me to pay attention to anything you write anymore. And even then I would hope that anyone noticing similarities would post their suspicions about the new handle's alter-ego. You can cry wolf all you want Danny, I ain't comin' a runnin'

Some notable observations about other posters who have commented about the situation...

David Matthews: Excellent analysis and commentary...I will be watching your name and looking for your posts via search from now on.

Green Doberman: I like your impartiality. I will be looking out for your comments in dispute situations and will take what you say very seriously.

dogball: Classy move to retract your original sentiments for the General. It's not easy to do that so you get my respect for that.

wilheim: Good job in finding the true lines (same to others who posted similar info.). Your objectivity deserves honorable mention as well.

DonB/Vaulted: I disagree with your suggestions to forget about it and move on. There are a lot of issues like credibility at stake which depend on the details of the case. For example, the amounts of Danny's recent bets would tell us a lot about whether he or Intertops is trying to bend the truth. That's important because anyone who wants to post up with Intertops needs to know how easily they are prepared to lie and how they handle disputes in general. The fate of the $500 is only one small part of a very big picture.

This thread has been interesting and informative indeed. I think it is a prime example of what the Rx is all about. I have thoroughly enjoyed it anyway

Banned4Life · Jan 28, 2004

As I recall, NAB pulled the exact same stunt (hanging an obvious bad line and cancelling after the event) on a college football total one week before they went under.

Now that the issue of Danny's money has been taken care of, what about the allegations that this book has been hanging a lot of totals that are a couple of points off? Is this true?

dogball · Jan 28, 2004

Dave Matthews
Very informative opinion, thanks for sharing

will, Darryl, thank you guys, I hope general got to read it.

GreenDoberman · Jan 28, 2004

Now that the facts are out a few obsrvations.

It's pretty clear the line was off by 10 or more points.

Anyone betting 500 or more on a game should be shopping around for lines or at least know where the number is.

The book has a right to cancel an obvious "bad" line, but should do so in a timely manner, not when there is 1 minute left in a half.

Intertops likely paid the money as "damage control" and also realized the only way they were going to get the money back was by the customer continuing the gambling.

DannyMay knew he had the book by the balls because they had screwed up and already sent him money.

DannyMay should never use the word ethical and himself in the same sentence again.

What comes around goes around.

TheGeneral+ · Jan 28, 2004

Dogball, Apology accepted. No big Deal.

To all,

I have handled many pay diputes/problems since mid 2002. I can only say that I do my best and it is up to each and every poster to determine whether that is good enough.

I am here to help, and I have no agendas nor grudges.

I'll keep trying.

All the best

Pretending · Jan 28, 2004

Wow, I've been away and what a read to comeback to!

I'm not going to comment on DannyMay. But intertops is more than one individual...they are in the service business, so to speak. Consequently, their behavior in all of this warrants more than what they have explained so far, imo. I wouldn't touch that book after reading this...don't they have more to say on the matter?

wilheim · Jan 28, 2004

Seems to me the big question here is who knew what - when. DM claims: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Throughout the entire time, the score was very close to the total -- it could have gone over OR under until about 1 minute left at which time it became clear the UNDER was going to hit. It was at that time, and ONLY at that time that I recived an email from the book saying they were going to cancel my bet because it was a bad line. The time on the email was 1242, the game started at 1200 and it went to halftime at about 1247. It is clear that they waited to see that the UNDER was good before cancelling. I emailed them back my concern that it wouldnt have been cancelled if it went OVER
Here is a play by play of the last two minutes of the first half from the game re-cap at CBS Sportsline.com:
2:01 NC Rashad McCants made Slam Dunk, Assist Jackie Manuel
1:43 VA Devin Smith made 3-pt. Jump Shot, Assist Todd Billet
1:31 NC Jawad Williams missed Jump Shot, Blocked by Donte Minter
1:24 NC Offensive Rebound by Jackie Manuel
1:07 NC Travelling turnover on Jackie Manuel
57.0 VA Elton Brown missed Layup, Blocked by Sean May
47.0 VA 3-second violation turnover on Todd Billet
26.0 NC Offensive foul on Raymond Felton
26.0 NC Offensive Foul turnover on Raymond Felton
8.0 VA Elton Brown made Layup, Assist Todd Billet
0.0 End of period.

Now you can see only 2 points were scored in the final 1:43 seconds, so that means it was 42-38 with 1:43 to go - 80 points. Danny CLAIMS he recieved his e-mail with about 1 minute to go and it was clear the UNDER was going to hit. I have seen the e-mail and it is not a form letter type, but is personalised for DM. this had to take time to prepare, and to send. So I ask you has anyone ever seen 9 points scored in the last minute of the first half of a college basketball game? Notice there were at least 4 separtate possesions in the last minute. How could you say this was a SURE UNDER with a minute to go????

wil.

DavidMatthews · Jan 28, 2004

Well according to your play-by-play, with 1 minute left to go, it would have still required the points you mentioned. (I don't know what the under number he had was. 88?)

In other words, with 1:43 left it needed 9 points, and with 1 minute left it still needed 9 points. The under looks favorable but questionable at 1:43. It looks very strong at 1:00.

If it were a 2nd half, it would be a different story, but it wasn't it was a first half.

Also realize that if a player bets a bad line, they still have risk. They can and DO lose sometimes. A book that takes shots has no risk. They never lose. I think that's an important difference.