The US can barely handle Iraq who have no air force, no navy, no smart bombs, no spy satellites. Just small arms, RPGs and car bombs.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/284208/modern_russian_tanks_best_tanks_in_2007/
yes. May see the Russians show off a bit more but this is essentially over IMO
This had obviously been in the works for some time. Can't blame em, NATO encroaching on all sides. Very strong statement was sent here
As for the pipeline, Russia really doesn't need it, nor do they need the territory. A Russian official was quoted saying "We have more land then we know what to do with"
Of course, it Georgia had any significant energy resources it would be a different story, but they don't
As I understand, this province wanted to separate from Georgia at the end of the cold war but their efforts to become independent were unsuccessful. Since then, the people have become more and more pro-Russia and anti-Georgia.
I see this skirmish as an opportunity for Russia to annex territory with people who are already Russian for all intents and purposes with a few added bonuses ...
1) They get to look like benevolent liberators
2) They get to flex their muscle towards the west, which they've been wanting to do because of that missile shield thing in E. Europe
3) They get to test the waters vis-a-vis how the west will react to get important information on likely reactions to possible larger undertakings. Remember how Hitler got started in 1938? A little here a little there, no reaction, gradually more and more etc.
4) They foil the west's expensive project -- the BTC pipeline -- whose intention was to have an oil route to the west that avoids Russia. That one is probably for posturing and to have some big LOL's over some vodka.
5) They have nothing to lose because Georgia can't hurt 'em and if the west's reaction is too strong they can just pull back and and maybe even get some $$$ or other perks out of the deal, seeing the west are a bunch of pussies these days.
I see this skirmish as an opportunity for Russia to annex territory with people who are already Russian for all intents and purposes with a few added bonuses ...
1) They get to look like benevolent liberators
2) They get to flex their muscle towards the west, which they've been wanting to do because of that missile shield thing in E. Europe
3) They get to test the waters vis-a-vis how the west will react to get important information on likely reactions to possible larger undertakings. Remember how Hitler got started in 1938? A little here a little there, no reaction, gradually more and more etc.
4) They foil the west's expensive project -- the BTC pipeline -- whose intention was to have an oil route to the west that avoids Russia. That one is probably for posturing and to have some big LOL's over some vodka.
5) They have nothing to lose because Georgia can't hurt 'em and if the west's reaction is too strong they can just pull back and and maybe even get some $$$ or other perks out of the deal, seeing the west are a bunch of pussies these days.
bold is your answer to the pipeline in play romo
--------------------------------------------
Russian Offensive Imperils U.S. Aims on Iran, Energy (Update1)
By Janine Zacharia
Aug. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Russia's widening military campaign in Georgia may end up threatening the U.S. strategic aims of preventing Iran from building a nuclear bomb and securing Central Asian energy supplies for Europe.
``A Russian-Georgian war will imperil U.S.-Russian diplomacy no matter what,'' said Cliff Kupchan of New York-based Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm. The U.S. and European reactions will make Russia ``more obstinate at the Security Council,'' where President George W. Bush seeks to impose tougher United Nations sanctions on the Iranian government, he added.
Georgia's role in a U.S.-backed energy corridor to Europe for oil and natural gas from former Soviet areas of Central Asia, a route that skirts Russia, also may be in doubt. That strategy counted on Russia respecting Georgia's sovereignty.
Bush returned from China and expressed concerns that Russian forces may be engaged in an effort ``to depose Georgia's duly elected government.''
As Russian troops, backed by air power, pushed deeper into Georgian territory yesterday, efforts by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her European counterparts to broker a cease-fire showed no sign of bearing fruit.
Peace Mission
The U.S. is backing a peace mission led by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, who will meet with Russian officials in Moscow today and seek agreement on a package that includes a cease-fire. The offer also calls for the withdrawal of Russian forces, the dispatch of international observers to replace Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia and a pledge not to use force, a senior U.S. official told reporters in Washington late yesterday.
The official likened Russia's military operation to past Soviet invasions of Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia and said it appeared the Russians were planning the incursion for some time.
American assumptions about Russian acquiescence in major policy issues may now be undercut, said Stephen Sestanovich, a senior fellow for Russian and Eurasian studies at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.
The conflict is the ``first demonstration of Russian military power to break one of the former Soviet states, and that sort of gets to the stability of the framework that the U.S. thought was going to govern the post-Cold War world,'' he said.
`No Leverage'
Kupchan said the U.S. now has ``virtually no leverage on Russia.'' An envoy at a higher level than Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matt Bryza, whose area of interest includes the Caucasus, should be sent to the region, he said.
Concerns about an outbreak of hostilities between Georgia and Russia had been building among American policy makers.
In a visit last month to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, Rice said it was ``extremely important'' for the separatist disputes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia to be resolved peacefully. She cautioned that violence ``should not be carried out by any party.''
Since the fighting erupted on Aug. 7, the U.S. has criticized Russia for a disproportionate use of force.
Troops From Iraq
The U.S. is facilitating the return of as many as 2,000 Georgian soldiers from Iraq to Georgia -- a move Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticized as ``interference'' -- without planning to commit any military support of its own, according to officials.
If Russia topples Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, relations with the U.S. ``will be just that much worse,'' Kupchan said.
Beyond being a democratic ally, Georgia is a link in a U.S.-backed southern energy corridor that connects the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia. The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline is a major part of that route and runs about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
Robert Johnson, a specialist in energy at the Eurasia Group, said Georgia's reputation as a viable, alternative route for transporting oil and gas from Turkmenistan and elsewhere has been ``compromised'' because of the conflict.
Georgian officials said Russia is seeking to oust Saakashvili, while Russia said it was protecting the separatist Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Goals `Achieved'
``Russia has achieved its goals,'' said Alexander Rahr, a Russia specialist at the German Council of Foreign Relations in Berlin. ``Georgia will not be able to reunite with its regions in the coming decades.''
Russia was in part provoked by the U.S.-led push to bring Georgia and Ukraine, both former Soviet satellites, into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. In April, Brussels-based NATO committed itself to adding Georgia and Ukraine without providing a timeframe or a clear path toward membership.
This pledge, along with the recognition of Kosovo's independence by the U.S. and Western allies, angered Russia, which is against further NATO expansion. The Russian invasion may trouble pro-Western democracies the U.S. has cultivated in the region.
Given the limited U.S. response so far in the Georgia crisis, ``there's a lot more anxiety about the credibility and value of American relationships, including security relationships,'' Sestanovich said.
Ukraine Ties
The senior U.S. official who briefed reporters late yesterday said Russia might be looking to take its war beyond Georgia and signaled the U.S. will be announcing ways to strengthen ties with Ukraine and other states of the former Soviet Union.
The official predicted those states will be determined to avoid losing the sovereignty won and maintained since the Soviet collapse.
NATO will meet in emergency session today, the U.S. official said.
While the U.S. ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, Vice President Dick Cheney and other senior U.S. officials cautioned Russia about damage to relations if it presses the assault on Georgia, a top Russian official disagreed about the fallout.
``Russian-American relations have a very important value for both our countries,'' Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters at the UN late yesterday. ``We hope that without too much further propaganda we can move to the core of the matter of this difficult situation, and Russian-American relations will not suffer.''
--------------------------------------------
Russian Offensive Imperils U.S. Aims on Iran, Energy (Update1)
By Janine Zacharia
Aug. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Russia's widening military campaign in Georgia may end up threatening the U.S. strategic aims of preventing Iran from building a nuclear bomb and securing Central Asian energy supplies for Europe.
``A Russian-Georgian war will imperil U.S.-Russian diplomacy no matter what,'' said Cliff Kupchan of New York-based Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm. The U.S. and European reactions will make Russia ``more obstinate at the Security Council,'' where President George W. Bush seeks to impose tougher United Nations sanctions on the Iranian government, he added.
Georgia's role in a U.S.-backed energy corridor to Europe for oil and natural gas from former Soviet areas of Central Asia, a route that skirts Russia, also may be in doubt. That strategy counted on Russia respecting Georgia's sovereignty.
Bush returned from China and expressed concerns that Russian forces may be engaged in an effort ``to depose Georgia's duly elected government.''
As Russian troops, backed by air power, pushed deeper into Georgian territory yesterday, efforts by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her European counterparts to broker a cease-fire showed no sign of bearing fruit.
Peace Mission
The U.S. is backing a peace mission led by French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, who will meet with Russian officials in Moscow today and seek agreement on a package that includes a cease-fire. The offer also calls for the withdrawal of Russian forces, the dispatch of international observers to replace Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia and a pledge not to use force, a senior U.S. official told reporters in Washington late yesterday.
The official likened Russia's military operation to past Soviet invasions of Afghanistan and Czechoslovakia and said it appeared the Russians were planning the incursion for some time.
American assumptions about Russian acquiescence in major policy issues may now be undercut, said Stephen Sestanovich, a senior fellow for Russian and Eurasian studies at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.
The conflict is the ``first demonstration of Russian military power to break one of the former Soviet states, and that sort of gets to the stability of the framework that the U.S. thought was going to govern the post-Cold War world,'' he said.
`No Leverage'
Kupchan said the U.S. now has ``virtually no leverage on Russia.'' An envoy at a higher level than Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matt Bryza, whose area of interest includes the Caucasus, should be sent to the region, he said.
Concerns about an outbreak of hostilities between Georgia and Russia had been building among American policy makers.
In a visit last month to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, Rice said it was ``extremely important'' for the separatist disputes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia to be resolved peacefully. She cautioned that violence ``should not be carried out by any party.''
Since the fighting erupted on Aug. 7, the U.S. has criticized Russia for a disproportionate use of force.
Troops From Iraq
The U.S. is facilitating the return of as many as 2,000 Georgian soldiers from Iraq to Georgia -- a move Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticized as ``interference'' -- without planning to commit any military support of its own, according to officials.
If Russia topples Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, relations with the U.S. ``will be just that much worse,'' Kupchan said.
Beyond being a democratic ally, Georgia is a link in a U.S.-backed southern energy corridor that connects the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia. The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline is a major part of that route and runs about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.
Robert Johnson, a specialist in energy at the Eurasia Group, said Georgia's reputation as a viable, alternative route for transporting oil and gas from Turkmenistan and elsewhere has been ``compromised'' because of the conflict.
Georgian officials said Russia is seeking to oust Saakashvili, while Russia said it was protecting the separatist Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Goals `Achieved'
``Russia has achieved its goals,'' said Alexander Rahr, a Russia specialist at the German Council of Foreign Relations in Berlin. ``Georgia will not be able to reunite with its regions in the coming decades.''
Russia was in part provoked by the U.S.-led push to bring Georgia and Ukraine, both former Soviet satellites, into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. In April, Brussels-based NATO committed itself to adding Georgia and Ukraine without providing a timeframe or a clear path toward membership.
This pledge, along with the recognition of Kosovo's independence by the U.S. and Western allies, angered Russia, which is against further NATO expansion. The Russian invasion may trouble pro-Western democracies the U.S. has cultivated in the region.
Given the limited U.S. response so far in the Georgia crisis, ``there's a lot more anxiety about the credibility and value of American relationships, including security relationships,'' Sestanovich said.
Ukraine Ties
The senior U.S. official who briefed reporters late yesterday said Russia might be looking to take its war beyond Georgia and signaled the U.S. will be announcing ways to strengthen ties with Ukraine and other states of the former Soviet Union.
The official predicted those states will be determined to avoid losing the sovereignty won and maintained since the Soviet collapse.
NATO will meet in emergency session today, the U.S. official said.
While the U.S. ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, Vice President Dick Cheney and other senior U.S. officials cautioned Russia about damage to relations if it presses the assault on Georgia, a top Russian official disagreed about the fallout.
``Russian-American relations have a very important value for both our countries,'' Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters at the UN late yesterday. ``We hope that without too much further propaganda we can move to the core of the matter of this difficult situation, and Russian-American relations will not suffer.''
"major power"? georgia head dude ain't
they were already on the path to losing ossetia....russia already has a ton of economic/political clout there....the government there was pro russia and becoming moreso
as for why the georgian leader decided to move and now is anyone's guess
i'm guessing olympics and all the world leaders in china had something to do with the timing of it....
they were already on the path to losing ossetia....russia already has a ton of economic/political clout there....the government there was pro russia and becoming moreso
as for why the georgian leader decided to move and now is anyone's guess
i'm guessing olympics and all the world leaders in china had something to do with the timing of it....
this pipeline supposedly the only one that goes to the caspian sea and doesn't go through russia at any point
was pushed through during clinton administration when russia was weak and they threw a shit fit about it but couldn't do anything about it while georgia took it cause they could now have the US in its pocket giving it lots of guns and ammo and other economic perks
now the US overstretched and can't do anything about it......and russia slowly on the path to shutting down the pipeline or gaining control to the region supposedly its a little bit into georgia's territory outside the south ossetian area....pipeline probably big reason they moving in on georgia further.....
let the global chess match continue as some pawns get chewed up
was pushed through during clinton administration when russia was weak and they threw a shit fit about it but couldn't do anything about it while georgia took it cause they could now have the US in its pocket giving it lots of guns and ammo and other economic perks
now the US overstretched and can't do anything about it......and russia slowly on the path to shutting down the pipeline or gaining control to the region supposedly its a little bit into georgia's territory outside the south ossetian area....pipeline probably big reason they moving in on georgia further.....
let the global chess match continue as some pawns get chewed up
Bush Sr. and Clinton squandered 12 years. 12 years of neglect. We had a golden opportunity to forge close ties with the Russians and prevent a fascist leader from taking over that emerging fragile democracy.
Oops, too late!
hno:
That sound you hear is Ronald Reagan rolling over in his grave.
Oops, too late!
hno:That sound you hear is Ronald Reagan rolling over in his grave.
this could be the next step in the process towards WW3 joe
surprised you aren't all giddy
------------
plus i'm sure russia might want to push this as far as they can and show the world how stretched the US really is
not only for that reason but also war is good for commodities....and they have recently been falling due to the global slowdown....and russsia's economy very commodity dependent......
surprised you aren't all giddy
------------
plus i'm sure russia might want to push this as far as they can and show the world how stretched the US really is
not only for that reason but also war is good for commodities....and they have recently been falling due to the global slowdown....and russsia's economy very commodity dependent......
On a serious note? Of course not. I'm never "giddy" about war, tizdoom.
I only put on a convincing act because the loony left is beyond unhinged, I have to counter them with something close to their level.
They will call me a "war monger" no matter what the hell I say, so I might as well play it up for all it's worth.
If I served -- I'm a murderer.
If I didn't serve -- I'm a chickenhawk.
The left is intellectually bankrupt. Ad hominem attacks is the only way they know how to communicate.
Soon the hawks will be in charge in Israel and bomb Iran. Obviously the dynamics in the ME change rapidly once that happens but if Russia doesn't stay out of that one, you're right, it could be WW III.
Don't think it'll happen, because the stakes are too high.
Americans are relatively peaceful but very fierce when stirred to anger, don't kid yourself. We have a lot of fire power in reserve, we just don't use it. "Testing our limits" wouldn't be in anyone's best interest.
Worse case scenario? There will be a massive multinational force along with a draft -- yes, McCain would institute a draft if there was a full scale war in the ME -- but I have no doubt the good guys would prevail and that out of the ashes would rise something very similar to modern Europe post-WW II.
Btw, I'd like to point something out...
At the end of the Cold War when Ronald Reagan left office, America was the undisputed superpower = world peace.
Throughout the 90s, (Bush I and Clinton) America pretty much did nothing but was still regarded as the undisputed superpower = world peace.
Now that various powers are no longer satisfied with this post-Cold War unipolar dynamic and are wanting to flex their muscles and challenge our superiority, tensions once again are rising. (Surprise!)
Do people understand why it's a good thing for America to always remain on top: the undisputed heavyweight?
When the forces of good are strong, there's peace. When the forces of good are weak, tyrants become tempted and all hell breaks loose.
This is why Barack Obama's "We are the world" speech in Berlin was so insidiously offensive -- and dangerous.
Sen. Obama (and the entire Democrat party -- except Joe Lieberman):
"THE WORLD" stinks.
uke1:
Stop trying to "go along to get along" and stop "apologizing" for the greatest country "the world" has ever known.
"The world" would erupt into a bloodbath were it not for American leadership and strength.
Folks, I want you to think very carefully and ask yourself if you want a leader with Jimmy Carter-like naivety who will acquiesce to the whims of Moscow, Beijing, Brussels and Tehran -- and whoever else the hell wants to push us around.
That would be a recipe for DISASTER.
America MUST STAND BY HER PRINCIPLES AND LEAD. Everyone else must follow or get out of the way -- just how the global dynamics were after Reagan left office and all throughout the 90s.
Anything short of this and "the world" will erupt like a fierce volcano.
At the end of the Cold War when Ronald Reagan left office, America was the undisputed superpower = world peace.
Throughout the 90s, (Bush I and Clinton) America pretty much did nothing but was still regarded as the undisputed superpower = world peace.
Now that various powers are no longer satisfied with this post-Cold War unipolar dynamic and are wanting to flex their muscles and challenge our superiority, tensions once again are rising. (Surprise!)
Do people understand why it's a good thing for America to always remain on top: the undisputed heavyweight?
When the forces of good are strong, there's peace. When the forces of good are weak, tyrants become tempted and all hell breaks loose.
This is why Barack Obama's "We are the world" speech in Berlin was so insidiously offensive -- and dangerous.
Sen. Obama (and the entire Democrat party -- except Joe Lieberman):
"THE WORLD" stinks.
uke1:Stop trying to "go along to get along" and stop "apologizing" for the greatest country "the world" has ever known.
"The world" would erupt into a bloodbath were it not for American leadership and strength.
Folks, I want you to think very carefully and ask yourself if you want a leader with Jimmy Carter-like naivety who will acquiesce to the whims of Moscow, Beijing, Brussels and Tehran -- and whoever else the hell wants to push us around.
That would be a recipe for DISASTER.
America MUST STAND BY HER PRINCIPLES AND LEAD. Everyone else must follow or get out of the way -- just how the global dynamics were after Reagan left office and all throughout the 90s.
Anything short of this and "the world" will erupt like a fierce volcano.
Exactly, when called upon by countries that want to become Democratic like the Chinese students in the 80's and others along the way we don't help. As it should be....that is not our job or duty....but we are freedom fighters for non-free countries like Kuwait. We should only try to put on political pressure and try the diplomatic approach. I am not sure if that is our government role but it does sound reasonable.
Besides with how strained the military has become under the current administration how could we help militarily?
no way we get involved militarily, or i highly doubt it, directly at least
i'm sure russia been building up to this for a while and was planned and likely forced georgia's hand to a point they felt cornered so they made the move
as well as i'm sure russia flexed its muscles as far as training stuff to show the US they mean business
US can't do shit here
up to euro's to get involved and come up with something
frenchie dude flying to moscow and georgia for talks tomorrow
this is all a big fuck you to the US
and putin showing the world he means business
i'm sure russia been building up to this for a while and was planned and likely forced georgia's hand to a point they felt cornered so they made the move
as well as i'm sure russia flexed its muscles as far as training stuff to show the US they mean business
US can't do shit here
up to euro's to get involved and come up with something
frenchie dude flying to moscow and georgia for talks tomorrow
this is all a big fuck you to the US
and putin showing the world he means business
