For the Little Guy

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by Russell Madden
The LFE Times


As someone who has fought for years in my own small ways for freedom, I have been accused of many negative things. Because I believe in the right of rich people who come by their wealth honestly to enjoy all the benefits of their money, I have been attacked as an elitist. Because I believe in the sanctity of private property, I have been told I don't "care" about education when I oppose yet another school bond vote or "optional" sales tax. Because I believe in personal responsibility, I have been charged with heartlessness given my disagreement with welfare — whether in the form of AFDC or food stamps or Medicaid.

These and other positions have led various critics to brand me as an enemy of "the little guy."

Heaven knows, I enjoy no shortage of adversaries.

Many professional politicians have made their careers embracing "the little guy." Some wear their "compassion" on their sleeves, elbowing each other aside as they race towards the microphones and television cameras to prove to any and all that they "feel" the pain of "the little guy," that they "care" more than their rivals do about that neglected victim's plight.

Others wear the "populist" label, decrying all the low-end jobs being "exported" to other countries. These righteous individuals just know that a major part of the unemployment problem results from our sieve-like borders. If only we could keep out all those damned foreigners, the Second Dawning of America would draw nigh.

A significant number of the defenders of "the little guy" wax indignant at the evils of Corporate America. They are convinced that the only thing of interest to the CEO's of Big Business is increasing their companies' bottom lines: "people before profits" is the mantra chanted by these protesting, tenderhearted activists.

An exemplar of what awaits "the little guy" should his self-proclaimed supporters prevail occurred at a recent World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting in Cancun, Mexico. With confident assurance, these proponents of policies advancing the cause of "the little guy" told the world that they sought to uphold the vision of those admirable leaders, Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, and Mao Zedong. This remarkable triumvirate "'represent the social justice movement, and they did a lot of good things for people.'" Exemplars of "freedom," these three icons "battled the exploitation of the common man." People — not power or money — motivated these guardians to retain power for "the masses, not...a certain handful of people." (Quotes from [2].)

Capitalism is the enemy of the "developing world," and the source of "misery, poverty" and "destruction." Better for the inhabitants of Africa to avoid luxuries such as "running water and electricity" than to suffer under the yoke of "colonization and colonialism." Not only is trade negative for people, it also represents an assault on "plants and animals" and on the earth, itself. [2] Indeed, the very prospect of allowing "unsafe," even "deadly," genetically-modified and -enhanced food to enter into the markets of Third World countries is sufficient to send many into apoplexy. [1]

These enlightened individuals are joined in decrying commerce by conservatives who see trade as weakening "U.S. sovereignty and economic independence." Better, they think, to place stiff tariffs on any goods imported into this country. [2]

When the most recent WTO talks ended, those who laud the dead torchbearers of communism called it a "victory for the working poor, family farmers, farm workers, the indigenous, the poor, and for immigrants all over the world." They brushed off complaints by some such as author Paul Driessen that those deceased heroes murdered tens of millions of their own citizens and kept those who survived destitute and miserable. [2]

The representatives of "rich" nations, however, were unhappy. One U. S. House Representative, Charles Stenholm, said this setback delayed the day when farmers would "give up subsidies" and rely more upon the "market than...government." Others said they wanted to lower tariffs and other barriers to trade. [3]

Others disagreed with such goals, maintaining that keeping American subsidies is better than giving "charity" to the rest of the world. The prospect of permitting poorer nations to postpone tariff reductions did not set well with some, either. [3]

Sadly, it is precisely "the little guy" who is getting screwed in this struggle. Yes, it is wonderful for a politician to back a loosening of the ropes strangling world trade. Such a stance is less than believable, however, when the American political machine continues agricultural policies begun in the Depression that increase food prices for U.S. consumers while simultaneously undercutting the ability of farmers in poor countries to compete against American products dumped into their markets.

How can we take seriously an administration that preaches "free trade" while imposing tariffs on foreign steel that "save" less than two-thousand jobs (at nearly $800,000 per) in that industry while losing a far greater number of employees (about forty-five thousand) dependent on steel for their own livelihoods? [4]

Where is the sense in a mindset that cloaks itself in empathy for single-mothers while jacking up their living expenses and imposing walls of licensing and permits and regulations they must scale before they can create and run their own businesses?

When will people recognize that asking the State to usurp the world of medical care will not guarantee lower prices, improved treatment, accelerated innovation, or greater accessibility to the disadvantaged?

Who in his right head could believe that inflating away the modest savings of the "working poor" (as though the "rich" do not work...) and depressing their retirement income possibilities is a better course to follow than encouraging individual responsibility and decision-making?

What will it take to shake clear the intellectual cobwebs that obscure the vision of those who claim that tyrants are good for the average citizen; that poverty, disease, primitive living conditions, and lack of even the most modest luxuries form an existence worthy to be pursued; that dying in the desert while seeking a crappy job in America serves the illegal indigent right?

Why do so many of "the little guys" swallow the poison that freedom is their enemy and slavery their savior; that they are being "exploited" when offered a job; that the same desire they have — to make more money — is golden as "wages" but evil when it occurs in the form of "profits"; that a collectivism that extolls the "masses" means that he — as an individual — will prosper; that all the political posturing designed to succor him will, instead, benefit those who know that poor people are their meal tickets to a comfortable life?

While I do often praise the extremely productive, the exceptionally creative, the extraordinarily hardworking, I do so knowing that — short of total tyranny — that rare group will usually manage to prosper, even if at reduced levels. Their very personal qualities help ensure that they can and will maneuver through or jump around or over most of the roadblocks placed in their path.

It's the average person, however, the mediocre, the less bright, the less skilled or educated who will stumble or surrender or wander bewildered when confronted with a twisting maze of laws or a thick tangle of red tape they neither comprehend nor can navigate.

You don't help the crippled by tossing rocks at their feet. You don't aid the weak by stacking weights upon their bowed backs. You don't console the frightened by perpetually scaring them to death with dire predictions of disaster and calamity they are told they cannot possibly handle.

Only those with the courage and the integrity to battle for liberty — for the removal of the chains binding our arms — only these uncommon souls deserve the title of "Champion of the Common Man."

Maybe someday "the little guy" will figure that out, too.
References

[1] Morano, Marc. "Mexican Village Plays Host to Fight Over Genetically Modified Food." CNSNews.com. 9-15-03. here

[2] Morano, Marc. "WTO Protesters Praise Marx, Lenin, Mao as 'Freedom Fighters.'" CNSNews.com. 9-15-03. here

[3] Scott, Alwyn. "WTO talks shatter amid clash of rich, poor nations." The Seattle Times 9-15-03. here

[4] Williams, Walter. "Economic Stupidity." WorldNetDaily 4-30-03. here
 

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"Because I believe in the right of rich people who come by their wealth honestly.."

Hahahahahahahahaha

Okay. So 3 to 5% is in there. OK.

NOW WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 95%?

Tax dodging
Welfare program scamming
Overcharging
extortionate interest rates
wages below the minimum rate
Unpaid overtime
3 to 6 months to pay an invoice, if at all.
a constrant stream of verbal lies
etc etc etc etc

Or is 'wealth honestly' defined as someone who hasn't been sent to jail.
icon_biggrin.gif


Plus, the corporates are in a league all of their own as far as a complete lack of social responsibility is concerned.


High browed grand speeches by rich fux are the cherry on a personal agenda cake baked with patronising bs.


And I'm not poor.
God knows how the poor view it.

The Capitalist elite in a nutshell:
About as clued up on reality as the communist elite.

[This message was edited by eek on September 28, 2003 at 05:19 AM.]
 

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'wealth' and 'honesty'
'politician' and 'integrity'

These are 2 examples of mutually exclusive words.

The thing is.
I wouldn't mind if they just admitted the daily reality.
A proper mission statement for business.
Some thing that sez.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...


"We strive to achieve the maximum exploitation and technically legal embezzlement possible in exchange for the absolute statutory minimum of social responsibility to society."
 

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couldn't have said it better myself eek.

i am tired of hired gun hacks, apologists for corporate america. Leftists and liberal might be wrong in many counts, but corporate apologists are talentless lying scum, boring, cliche and completely worthless.
 

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posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"Because I believe in the right of rich people who come by their wealth honestly.."

Hahahahahahahahaha

Okay. So 3 to 5% is in there. OK.

NOW WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 95%?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I imagine that the ratio is quite a bit more than 1:20, but since Madden clearly says "those who come by their wealth honestly" I am certain that he means to exclude those who do not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Tax dodging
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taxes are immoral; there is no such thing as a dishonest tax cheat, because even if he does not care for the larger picture he is engaging in one of the most moral acts possible: starving the Leviathan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Welfare program scamming
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rich people on welfare? Cite Source?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Overcharging
extortionate interest rates
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no such thing as "overcharging." The price of a good is determined by a combination of the cost of its production, the desired return of profit to the producer, what the market is willing to pay for it, and numerous other factors. A similar process determines interest rates. Also, not all wealthy people are in the business of setting prices and/or charging interest, so I fail to see how this assertion would even apply, even if it were true.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
wages below the minimum rate
Unpaid overtime
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not so familiar with foreign labour policies, but here in the States you can get in rather a lot of trouble for paying employees below the mandated minimum, even if you're paying such wages to unregistered, illegal immigrants who are neither skilled nor inclined to pursue better work, and who even at a sub-minimum rate are making more money than they've seen in their entire lives. In some places the state puishment for paying below minimum wage is actually greater than the federal punishment for harbouring illegal aliens.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3 to 6 months to pay an invoice, if at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

???????

Invoice payments are generally a mutually-agreed-upon credit arrangement between buyer and seller. If a company has problems paying its bills this makes it immoral? Even more ludicrous, this somehow makes wealthy people as a whole immoral?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
a constrant stream of verbal lies
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't be any worse than this uninformed drivel.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Plus, the corporates are in a league all of their own as far as a complete lack of social responsibility is concerned.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no such thing as social responsibility; what a silly thing to say.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The Capitalist elite in a nutshell:
About as clued up on reality as the communist elite.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would go for any elitist, which I imagine you consider me. I am not; I simply deny the veracity of such concepts as "social responsibility," "living wage," "universal health care (/literacy/housing/employment/etc.) and other Socialist pipe dreams.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
wealth' and 'honesty' [are] mutually exclusive words.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that you even believe that yourself, as you would now basically be saying that no wealthy person in the history of mankind has been honest, an assertion so foolish as to hardly merit consideration.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The thing is. I wouldn't mind if they just admitted the daily reality.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All the evil in the world can be forgiven if only the wrongdoer confesses? How very McCarthyesque of you ... very C of E as well come to think of it.


Phaedrus
 

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i admire the time you got to post here phaedrus, really elaborate posts, lots of time spent here, what line of work are you into that allows you such pleasure?

there's no fvcking point in the article you posted, bad prose, boring dumb ideas, apologetics, the ancient greeks had a saying, ouk en to polo to ef alla en to ef to polo, which means the good is not in the much, but the much in the good, translate it in your native tongue liberaly, in a few words you seem to post a lot, but you post a lot of garbage too, like the previous one, your conservative guilt ridden apologetics are growing a little stale, and a lot boring, i won't even bother replying point by point to your so called arguements, a find most of them pedantic, tiresome, and whatever little rhetoric you use to back up your conservative agenda, is so obvious, so skin deep, am just about willing to re-read finnegans wake to detox myself of its idiocy.
 

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alright i ll spent a few minutes here:

"wealth' and 'honesty' [are] mutually exclusive words."
Ι doubt that you even believe that yourself, as you would now basically be saying that no wealthy person in the history of mankind has been honest, an assertion so foolish as to hardly merit consideration."
This is downright dumb, eek says here with a figure of speech that much much more often than not wealth and honesty do not go together, yet you chose to use a vast generalization as a means to "debunk" his argument, boring, simplistic, and laughable.

"Tax dodging
Τaxes are immoral; there is no such thing as a dishonest tax cheat, because even if he does not care for the larger picture he is engaging in one of the most moral acts possible: starving the Leviathan. "

Another self sufficient, over indulgent, pseudo conservative argument, boring as hell, tax paying is better by all counts in any society than tax dodging, unfortunately your blindfold wont let you see that, hence the both wrong and shallow alluding to leviathan, some of us have read hobbes and your misquote is again laughable.


"Plus, the corporates are in a league all of their own as far as a complete lack of social responsibility is concerned."
"There's no such thing as social responsibility; what a silly thing to say. "

There's no such thing as personal responsibility and living your life, right bro?
icon_wink.gif


All of your arguments are, well fit for an obsessive compulsive gambling forum post, and are, well, crap, but i wont bother, too easy, too boring, no hard feelings, have a good day, but don't take yourself too seriously bro, because intellectual pigmies shouldn't really, now should they?
 

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Keep up the posts, Phaedrus, I'm personally glad you find the time to do so, regardless of how I may view them. Everyone has an opinion, and mine are in the conservative camp, so naturally I would tend to like what you post.

Criticism should of course be welcomed too - and you handle it very well, though I notice some of the critics resort to quite ill manners in their 'rebuttals'.

Carry on
1036316054.gif


b.t.w. I'm retired because of applying capitalistic ideas (I worked for it) and saving instead of spending
 

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i dont have such a big problem with capitalism, but i do mind idiocy, both my upbringing, culture and intelligence make it very hard for me to read through or reply to arguments i judge as boring, pedantic, simplistic, and poor. It's just me, phaedrus should be the king in such a forum with, besides a number of exceptions, a lot of half wits, ignorants, and cretins, but that does not mean i should not get offended with his poor rhetoric gymnastics, and overindulgent half witicisms. I honestly wish i could engage in some counter argumentation with the bloke, but, in all honesty it's beyond me, to pinpoint the various cheap arguments. Whoever gets it, gets it, no use in arguing with half wits on an anonymous internet forum, where it seems some have got lots of time on their hand to flood this forum with junk, while the rest of us work, and gamble, and screw and live, and only have the occasional pleasure of posting here.
 

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JD: pardon, I didn't understand your point?
icon_wink.gif


Btw, you may want to rethink your attitude, just a guess but I'd doubt many people, if any, would care to discuss anything at all with someone as acidic and all-knowing as you. I would imagine that you probably stew a lot at the stupidity of other people, comfortable in the knowledge that your viewpoint is the correct one. One might ask why you even bother reading Phaedrus's posts, since not only do you call it junk, but since your important and precious time is limited - one would think it might be better spent in re-reading your dog-eared copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People", only this time right-side up - that would explain a lot.

icon_smile.gif


p.s. I surprised myself by bothering to answer such a bitter post as yours, but then, I guess I do have some time left tonight to devote to charity.
icon_wink.gif
 

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posted by Jazz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Keep up the posts, Phaedrus, I'm personally glad you find the time to do so, regardless of how I may view them. Everyone has an opinion, and mine are in the conservative camp, so naturally I would tend to like what you post.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I appreciate the props. Agreement and disagreement are both excellent ways of sharpening the mind, passing the time and finding enjoyment all at once.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Criticism should of course be welcomed too - and you handle it very well, though I notice some of the critics resort to quite ill manners in their 'rebuttals'.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't mind criticism in the least -- in fact in cases where I am factually wrong I prefer to be proven to be so, as being proven wrong once can save who knows how much time and embarrassment down the line.

I also don't mind ill-mannered responses so much, if for no other reason that I am not an hypocrite -- I myself can often get abrasive in my arguments. I long ago stopped replying to anything JackDee said or reading any of his threads -- as I posted to him in Offshore quite some time ago, he used to be one of my favourite people here but at some point it was like he just snapped. At that point I said I hoped whatever was getting him down would get better, and I meant it, but in the meantime life is too short to waste on retarded half-rebuttals filled with bile and poorly-supported points.


Phaedrus
 

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A good clean political foodfight.
icon_smile.gif


Phaedrus.
I may have just thought of somewhere that you would like.

Everyone carries guns.
No-one pays taxes.
There are no socialist facilities of any note, hospitals, schools, decent housing, all that sort of socialist rubbish.
In fact, a socialist would probaly be run out of town.
Plus. There is virtually no Government!
There is almost zero social responsibility.
You can do pretty much what you like.

Its been like this for hundreds of years too.

Its not called heaven or eutopia, its called Afghanistan.

----------------------------------------

I think you are just rich and bored,
and you like to take-the-piss-out-of/have-a-bit-of-sport with the poor and lefty orientated amongst us.

[This message was edited by eek on September 29, 2003 at 05:15 AM.]
 

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posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
A good clean political foodfight.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't start it.
icon_smile.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Phaedrus.
I may have just thought of somewhere that you would like.

Everyone carries guns.
No-one pays taxes.
There are no socialist facilities of any note, hospitals, schools, decent housing, all that sort of socialist rubbish.
In fact, a socialist would probaly be run out of town.
Plus. There is virtually no Government!
There is almost zero social responsibility.
You can do pretty much what you like.

Its been like this for hundreds of years too.

Its not called heaven or eutopia, its called Afghanistan.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Afghanistan?

Only those approved of by their respective warlords (or U.S. occupying force, or U.S.-instilled puppet government, or crazy pseudo-religious tyrant rulers) carry guns.

Don't know if there's taxation or not, but I imagine that there is at least some form of ceorcive 'duty' being extorted from the people.

Without 'socialist rubbish' at least they have limited expenses to cover, at least if the world would stop alternately trying to bomb them and nation-build them to death.

There are hugely coercive 'social responsibilities' in place in Afghanistan ... not so bad now as during the Taliban regime but they're still there, under the form of 'religious duties', 'tribal loyalty', proably even 'anti-terrorism' since that's such a fashionable cause these days.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think you are just rich and bored, and you like to take the piss out of the poor and lefty orientated people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the least. I donate more money to charity in a year than most people earn, as well as non-financial considerations such as my time (I often work in shelters for the homeless, senior programs, kids programs, etc. as long as it's a privately-run operation not affiliated with any religious group) as well. I do not do this in order to show it off to others as many alleged philanthropists do; I do it because I want to, and becuase I think that I should.

The key there is that I do it with my money, time, labour etc. and no one else's, that I do not claim any special credit for doing so (I only bring it up here because I feel it is germane to the assertion you're making) and that as nice as it would be if everyone would chip in a little to the various causes that I do happen to support, I would rather see every homeless person in America starve in the street than see them receive a crust of bread purchased with money stolen at gunpoint, which ultimately is the process by which all public programs are funded.

I have often stated that most of the surface goals of Socialism are noble -- my problem is that they are implemented in a way which is not only economically unviable, but coercive and therefore of an immoral nature. How anyone can see the extorion of money from one person to provide for the benefit of another as a "socially responsible" occurence has always escaped me.

Additionally, social programs do not encourage "social responsibility" -- on the contrary the more schemes that are developed to "help" the poor, the less private citizens are inclined to help them, because their resources are limited by the wealth confiscated from them to pay for the social programs, and because their mindset shifts to one which sees dependence upon the state as the solution to poverty and other common social ills.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"Spare a dime?"

"Get a job."

"I lost my job."

"You can't get unemployment?"

"It ran out."

"Surely you can get welfare or something ..."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another negative aspect of nearly all social programs is that they deal in a fantasy world where needs become rights. Once the line is crossed, more and more people wish for their needs to become rights as well (after all, it's only 'fair,' to use a grotesque misapplication of the concept of 'fairness.') As programs continue to spread out, the only way that they can remain anything near solvent is to continue to diminish the benefits to recipients, or to increase the burden placed on those footing the bill. And as the scope of the various programs becomes greater and greater (which it almost invariably does) the state applies an increasingly broad homogenous solution to individual recipients whose circumstances, needs and motivations tend to be myriad.

And then, no one is helped -- except for the bureaucrats running the program, and the bleeding heart stumpers who think "lobbyist" is an actual job. And that is why I am so vehemently opposed to state-run social programs of any nature -- because every single one of them smacks of a collosal Ponzi scheme, with taxpayers as the victims, the poor as the schills, and the chair-warmers in command as the only perpetual beneficiaries.


Phaedrus
 

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jazz, i am not the only one here using diction such as "ludicrous" or "unimformed drivel", while at the same time claiming that they cannot "get abrasive" in their arguments. i am merely being sharp tongued in response to some very long winded posts that manage at the same time to be spectacularly void or rationality and/or factual support, prefering skin deep rhetoric gymnastics with a pseudo intellectual tinge. Most of what phaedrus writes is long and pointless, but i got to give it to him that his probably the most eloquent of the right wingers posting here, and hence sometimes, when i got the time, and i am done with checking out the gambling related content of the site, i like to skim through some of his posts for a phrase or two.

Eek writes about corporate america's tax dodging, and phaedrus replies that no tax evasion is immoral as it starves the state leviathan. But, in a given society with an established legislature, it's not the state that is starved if my filth rich fortune 500 co rips of a few millions here and there, but the majority of the people, that's so obvious to see. And hence you get the bill gates of this world forging illegal monopolies, bribing law and goverment officials and becoming on of the richest COUNTRIES in the world all by themselves. The collective wealth of mankind then suffers, and the allocation of wealth is such that whole continents such as africa die of starvation, aids and cholera.

That is just a case in point for a series of both falacious reasoning and half witticism of someone very well off with a lot of time on their hands to stretch his rhetoric musles in a forum, while contributing nothing of value.
 

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and something else:

"I have often stated that most of the surface goals of Socialism are noble -- my problem is that they are implemented in a way which is not only economically unviable, but coercive and therefore of an immoral nature."

So in other words it's coercive and immoral to the poor to have some form of affordable health care and social security by means of reallocating a minute fraction of the COLLECTIVE wealth from the rich, while it's perfectly moral to feed them corporate propaganda on expansionist wars, the benefits of big bussiness such as starbucks or shell oil abusing workers both at home and abroad and the environment whenever they get the chance, right? And it's perfectly moral to tell a kid in a ghetto that, well you won't help him out by rationing out to him one very insignificant fraction of the common wealth of the country, the wealth his ancestors died for in the hands of the g.w. bush morons lineage, for the sake of him being more moral? Another typical example of supposed high minded neo con apologetics, that wouldn't know reality if it hit in the face.

"How anyone can see the extorion of money from one person to provide for the benefit of another as a "socially responsible" occurence has always escaped me."
Right, so when some rich fvck has got a whole town working in his factory for peanuts, he is not actually extorting any money from them, huh?
The money is not of that person to begin with, that person would not be making any money hadn't he not been in an organised society, hence the money is as much his as the social system's that allowed and forstered his money making endeavours. Let alone, that much maligned term surplus value, which the capitalists like to call it "value added".

And all void rhetoric from phaedrus, while at the same time he should be aware (or is he?) of social democratic countries in europe, such as sweden, or france etc. etc. where the very same model he THINKS he's managed to rip with his short sighted rhetorics, has indeed been put to practise, and is STILL in practise, and very successfuly so.
 

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There are good points in (almost) all the posts here. But to all the old folks, please leave the vitriolic capitalist/socialist stuff not necessary to support a point out. I have to work and thus do not have time to read posts all day.

This is not directed at any one person in particular...

except Jazz.
icon_biggrin.gif
 

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