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WASHINGTON - The House voted Thursday to treat attacks on a pregnant woman as separate crimes against both her and the fetus she is carrying. Critics say it would undermine abortion rights by giving fetuses new federal legal status.


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• Unborn Victims of Violence Act (THOMAS)



Passage of the Unborn Victims of Violence Act was actively backed by the White House and President Bush (news - web sites)'s conservative supporters. Following enactment of the law banning "partial birth" abortions last year, the bill is this year's prime measure dealing with the unborn.


It passed 254-163 after the House rejected a Democratic-led alternative that would have increased penalties for attacks on pregnant women in which the fetus is injured or killed without conferring new rights on fetuses.


Backers further highlighted the bill by naming it in honor of Laci and Conner Peterson, the pregnant woman who was murdered in December, 2002, and her unborn child.


"There are two victims in these kinds of attacks," said Rep. Melissa Hart, R-Pa., chief sponsor of the legislation. "That is so clear from the Laci and Conner Peterson case."


Laci's husband Scott Peterson (news - web sites) faces double murder charges under California's state unborn victims law. California is one of 29 states that have enacted such laws, and supporters said Congress needs to bring the federal government in line with state laws.


The measure would be applicable only when federal crimes — such as terrorism, drug trafficking or offenses on federal land or on military bases — are committed.


The White House expressed strong support for the legislation and opposed any "one-victim" alternatives such as that offered by Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif. Her substitute, backed by most Democrats, fell 229-186.


Supporters denied that the bill was about abortion, pointing to language in the bill that specifically protects those carrying out legal abortions from prosecution. But the abortion issue dominated the debate.


"You deny personhood, which is a legal concept, to the unborn," Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., a strong opponent of abortion, said to critics of the bill. "Here's an opportunity to not restrict the liberty of a pregnant woman, but to enhance the sanctity of human life."


But Rep. Nita Lowey, D-N.Y., said it would be the first time in federal law that a fetus would be recognized as having the same rights as the born. The bill "is not about shielding pregnant women," she said. "It is and has always been about undermining freedom of choice."


The House, said Kate Michelman, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, was "taking advantage of tragedy to promote the far-right agenda of trying to rob women of their right to choose."


The two sides also argued over language in the bill that defines "unborn child" as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."


Critics said that under this definition even a fertilized egg would have the same rights as the born, setting the stage for future challenges to abortion rights.


But those behind the bill noted that identical language was used in a 2000 bill that barred the execution of pregnant women. That bill passed the House 417-0 but didn't move in the Senate.


The House has also twice before, in 1999 and 2001, passed unborn victims bills, but in both those cases as well the Senate, where abortion rights lawmakers hold greater sway, did not take up the legislation.


Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., has pledged to bring up the bill soon, but it's uncertain whether he has the votes to pass it.





The bill also states that an offense does not require proof that the assailant had knowledge that the victim was pregnant. Hart noted that murder is a leading cause of death among pregnant women and in many cases the attack is made with the intention to kill the unborn child.


is this the most ridiculous thing you have ever seen? a fetus has rights in a murder or homicide but not if the mother is the one who wants to kill it. that is totally unbelievable. what if the pregnant woman gets killed on the way to an abortion clinic? i mean come on...the unborn child was destined to die anyway in a couple hours so, don't pin two murders on the guy.

is the fetus a person with rights or not?

this country sometimes...absolutely unbelievable.
 

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If you are going to say that if a guy kills a pregnant women he must face two counts of murder, then you have to get rid of legalized abortion. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to legalize abortion then you can't charge a guy with killing something that you don't consider valuable enough to keep.
 

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slurpee, for the first and probably last time, i agree with you.
 

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Well.....


If you shoot someone you really hate with a high-powered rifle, and the bullet goes through them and kills me, you are still guilty of killing me too.


Even if I was expected to die of terminal cancer by the end of the week.

And if you are guilty of killing a pregnant woman, I don't see a problem with charging you with 2 murders instead of one.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tablarasa:
Well.....


If you shoot someone you really hate with a high-powered rifle, and the bullet goes through them and kills me, you are still guilty of killing me too.


Even if I was expected to die of terminal cancer by the end of the week.

And if you are guilty of killing a pregnant woman, I don't see a problem with charging you with 2 murders instead of one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i don't see a problem with it either. i am pro-life...BIG TIME. what i can't believe is that the u.s. congress gives a fetus rights in certain circumstances and not in the one circumstance where it matters most.

this is as bad as when the u.s. courts declared that a black man is 3/5 a person.
 

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Absolutely Blue, but lets just hope there is just validity to the fears of the baby killers in that this is the start or the anti-baby murder movement.
 

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the wife of a co-worker of mine was pregnant years ago. at about the 13th week, she had a mis-carraige. they were devastated.

they arranged for a funeral and a cemetary plot for their unborn child. there was a cermony at the cemetary when he was laid to rest. it was very emotional...not a dry eye was present.

i'm sure that somewhere else that very day, an aborted fetus was thrown into a medical waste recepticle in some abortion clinic and ended up in a landfill. no one weeped. no one cared.

the only difference between those two dead unborn children was that one mother wanted him and the other didn't. that is absolutely horrible.

either they are both people who have rights or they are both trash. think about it!

i just do not understand this ruling.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lander:
Absolutely Blue, but lets just hope there is just validity to the fears of the baby killers in that this is the start or the anti-baby murder movement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i hope you're right. in my opinion, one day the citizens of this country will view the period of time when we allowed legal abortions as terrible as when we had legal slavery.
 

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I have to disagree a bit on interpretation.

My own position on abortion itself is, to me, irrelevant to the logical argument here.

If you have gangrene in your hand, and expect to have to have it cut off at the end of the week if the treatment doesn't work, are you going to press charges against an axe-wielding madman who runs into your house and lops your wrist off? Damn straight you are..he just took away your choice.

While I agree with you that it can be seen as an initial wedge on abortion rights, it is a good law in that it has removed the choice from the adult in the situation as to the resolution of the matter.
 

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you are assuming that a woman owns the fetus growing in her body the same way she owns her hand. i disagree, VEHEMENTLY.
 

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I am very liberal but abortion is something I am still on the fence about....
 

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Actually Blue, I am trying to avoid presuming that one way or another, on the moral standpoint regarding this particular logical argument.

Legally, she does own it, and that is the only aspect I am looking at.

Morally, I find abortion repugnant.
 

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Being a man,I don't feel I have a right to an opinion when it comes to an abortion,unless i was married to the woman and the child was mine.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judge Wapner:
Being a man,I don't feel I have a right to an opinion when it comes to an abortion,unless i was married to the woman and the child was mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what if you were a 12 year old child and your mother got pregnant again, then decided to have an abortion? would you feel like you just lost a brother or sister or would you say "hey man, her choice. none of my business."?
 

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Blue,I just can't put myself in the position of a woman who has to make that descion.How can I relate to a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant and whose boyfriend is nowhere to be found.There are thousands of different scenarios.I just don't think I'm in any position to tell women what descion to make.And yes if my mother got pregnant it would be her descion.Not saying I would agree with it,but who am I to judge.No pun intended.
 

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what if your family is starving and you have no job. there is widespread economic hardship so there are no jobs available. the only way you can support your family is to steal food. so, you steal food to feed your family.

questions:

1) is what you did stealing
2) is stealing wrong
3) if you are caught stealing, will you be punished by the courts
 

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Do I think someone should be prosecuted in a case such as that?If it was up to me,no.In other words,if I owned a grocery store,and a person was caught stealing food.I KNEW this person did so in order to feed his family,I would not press charges.If it was possible,I would give him a job.I know,I know,I am an idealist.But I can't help it.
 

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i understand that you personally would be understanding in that case. and, i'm sure if that person stole from you personally, you would not press charges and would forgive them.

but, let's say you are a judge (no pun intended) and a grocery store owner, who does not care about the offender's situation brings charges. the person admits stealing. if you are an honest judge...what do you do?

i mean, the person did steal right? their situation does not change the law anymore than my being late for work allows me to drive 100 mph on the highway.
 

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Blue,that is exactly why I could never be a judge or a politician.I can't think in absolute terms.Sometimes basically good people are driven to do things that are wrong because of necessity.I cannot condemn them for that.I think the being late for work is a bad analogy.Can't compare that to feeding one's family.Now if you were going 100 mph to get someone to a hospital to save thier life,I don't think you should be prosecuted.
 

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