Do You Believe Dr. J Was On The Same Talent Level As Bird & Magic?

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Rx. Senior
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There is a reasonable case for Magic Johnson being the second best player in basketball history. Bird is outside of the top five, Erving is outside of the top 10

Bird-Erving was a bigger and better rivalry than Bird-Magic. Same position, same conference; the annual battles have been replaced in history by a few flashy headlines
 

Rx. Senior
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There is a reasonable case for Magic Johnson being the second best player in basketball history. Bird is outside of the top five, Erving is outside of the top 10

Bird-Erving was a bigger and better rivalry than Bird-Magic. Same position, same conference; like all wars, the stories from the frontlines are replaced by a few headlines
 

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There is a reasonable case for Magic Johnson being the second best player in basketball history.

Based on what exactly?

Dont get me wrong. I think Magic was a helluva player, but second best all time? I just don't think I can get there.

It's not rings. That's Bill Russell.

It's not assists. That's John Stockton.

It's not points. That's Kareem.

It's not "all around game". That's Oscar Robertson who AVERAGED a triple double for a season.

Now, if you want to say he's in the team picture for best point guard in the history of the NBA, I'm there with ya. But second best player of all time? Can't get there...

Doc
 
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Old School NBA - This is a classic scene from 1984

<embed src="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/mediaplayer.swf" allowscriptaccess="always" flashvars="scanscoutcode=763&pageurl=http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/368298/&file=http://media.ebaumsworld.com/videos/2008/04/368298.flv&mediaid=368298&title=Old School NBA Fight.&tags=nba,celtics,old,school,fight&description=This is a classic scene from '84 where there was a fight between The Celtic's & The 76ers. Main characters in the fight were Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone.&displayheight=325&backcolor=0x0d0d0d&lightoclor=0x336699&frontcolor=0xcccccc&image=http://media.ebaumsworld.com/thumbs/2008/04/368298.jpg" wmode="transparent" loop="false" menu="false" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" width="425" height="345">

Looks funny to see Barkley weighing 100 lbs less than his current weight.
 

I'll be in the Bar..With my head on the Bar
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He was not as good all around....The Big 3 made the rest of their team good enough to win....Players like DR.J, Pistol, Gervin, etc while great players they did not/could not carry a team...
 
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i said in his aba days. when were they ?

I guess what you were saying could be interpreted two ways, I assumed
you meant he played so well during his ABA days, that he was as good
as anyone in history up until now.

You meant that he was as good as anyone in history up until the
70's.
 

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Speaking of ABA 1 player in that league also carried his team....and to the ABA title.. Rick Barry, who im pretty sure if you had an all-time great team picked just by great coaches he'd be on every ballot....
 

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Based on what exactly?

Based on how much he helped his team win

If the NBA championship were to go to the team that has the player with the most points and assists, Magic would fall well short of Stockton and Abdul-Jabbar. The goal, however, is not to accumulate points or accumulate assists, the goal is to help the team win. In his rookie year Johnson gave his team the title when Abdul-Jabbar was injured. He was Finals MVP two more times and there were two years a different Lakers player was Finals MVP when Johnson was the best player on the team for all the games leading up to finals. He was the best player on a team that won five titles and won the conference an additional three times

The Celtics obviously far exceeded those Lakers teams. But the Celtics did it with as many as seven Hall-of-Fame players all in their prime. Jordan doesn't come close to the championships Russell has either. Bird had at least equal teammates (and probably better) and won less often than Johnson
 
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Seen everyone that has been discussed play...

Dr J in the ABA was amazing

Magic and Bird saved the NBA from going under...

The ABA contributed many players going into the NBA and reviving it..

Too bad many of you didn't get to watch Connie Hawkins play...the same with Geoge Gervin....
 

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Great thread.
I too saw all three play, Dr. J had *mad* skills.
He had the total package, windmill jams, jump hooks, etc. etc.
Anybody remember the baseline move he made on Kareem?
Passing the ball underneath the backboard, catching it on the other side, and then scooping it home.
Definitaly in the same class as the Bird Man and Magic.
There's a reason why he's on the top 50 list of greatest NBA players of all time.

Dr. J was also the first unofficial ambassador for the game.

Larry Bird has been, and always will be my guy, but it was a shame to see the Doctor get *schooled* by Larry at the end of his career.
Almost reduced him to tears.
 

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Dr J changed the way the game was played.

Julius Erving, the great and wondrous "Dr. J," was the dominant player of his era, an innovator who changed the way the game was played. He was a wizard with the ball, performing feats never before seen: midair spins and whirls punctuated by powerful slam dunks. Erving was one of the first players to make extemporaneous individual expression an integral part of the game, setting the style of play that would prevail in the decades to follow.

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The Good Doctor is awarded the NBA MVP Trophy by former NBA Commisioner the late Larry O'Brien in 1981.


A gracious, dignified, and disciplined man, Erving was an ideal ambassador for the game. He was the epitome of class, and no player was more respected.

"As a basketball player, Julius was the first to truly take the torch and become the spokesman for the NBA," said friend and former coach Billy Cunningham. "He understood what his role was and how important it was for him to conduct himself as a representative of the league. Julius was the first player I ever remember who transcended sports and was known by one name -- Doctor."

Erving began his professional career in the American Basketball Association with the Virginia Squires and the New York Nets. Widely regarded as the greatest player of his time, he is often considered to have been the main catalyst for the ABA-NBA merger in 1976. A 6-7, 210-pound small forward, he also played for 11 years with the Philadelphia 76ers, leading them to the NBA crown in 1983.

In his five ABA seasons, Erving won three scoring titles, three Most Valuable Player Awards and two league championships. During his 11-year NBA career Erving was an All-Star each season, the league's Most Valuable Player in 1981 and a five-time member of the All-NBA First Team. He scored 30,026 points in his combined ABA and NBA career; only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan have scored more points in the history of professional basketball.

Julius Winfield Erving II was born on February 22, 1950, in Roosevelt, New York. He starred for Roosevelt High School, earning a reputation as a fundamentally sound but not spectacular player. Although the origins of his nickname remain unclear, the most common story has the moniker coming from a high school friend, who dubbed Erving "Doctor" because Erving called him "Professor." The name stuck, and it even came to define the way Erving "operated" on a basketball court.

He enrolled at the University of Massachusetts in 1968, and although he averaged 26.3 points and 20.2 rebounds over two varsity seasons, he was still fairly obscure when he left the school in 1971 to sign as an undergraduate free agent with the ABA's Virginia Squires.

Professional basketball was extremely volatile in 1971-72, the year Erving launched his brilliant career. The ABA and NBA were already talking about a merger, players were jumping from league to league and franchises were in flux.

However, Erving initially went to the ABA. Although Virginia already had ABA scoring champ Charlie Scott, Erving began to contribute immediately. He later said he realized he was in his element during his first game as a rookie.

On a drive to the hole, he was challenged by the Kentucky Colonels' 7-2 Artis Gilmore and 6-9 Dan Issel. "I went in between both of them and just hung there and waited for them to come down. Then I dunked on them so hard I fell on my back," recalled Erving in the Boston Globe. "Just doing that made me confident to go after anyone, anytime, anywhere, without any fear."

He scored 27.3 points per game as a rookie, was selected to the All-ABA Second Team, made the ABA All-Rookie Team and finished second to Gilmore for the ABA Rookie of the Year Award.

Virginia finished 45-39 and in second place in the Eastern Division behind the powerful Colonels, who dominated the league at 68-16. In the playoffs Erving scored 33.3 points per game as the Squires beat the Floridians in four straight and then fell to the New York Nets and Rick Barry in the Eastern Division Finals.

When Erving's college class graduation rolled around that year, he was selected by the Milwaukee Bucks in the first round (12th pick overall) of the 1972 NBA Draft. It may be tortuous for Bucks fan to reflect upon that now as Erving, Abdul-Jabbar along with a veteran Oscar Robertson would have been quite an assemblage of talent.

However, during this time players were playing musical teams and Erving was no exception. Rather than attempt to play for the Bucks, he attempted to jump to the Atlanta Hawks before the 1972-73 season began. Prior to Atlanta games, he would be at the arena ready to don a Hawks uniform, but he was legally barred from playing due to court injunctions initiated by the Squires and a court order eventually forced his return to Virginia four games into the ABA campaign.

He went on to lead the ABA in scoring that year, pouring in a career-best 31.9 points per game. Word began to spread of his exciting, innovative style of play, and he received the first of four consecutive All-ABA First Team selections, joining Gilmore, Billy Cunningham, James Jones and Warren Jabali.


Erving began to realize, along with everybody else, that he was something special. "That really didn't become something that I accepted 'til I was a professional," he told the Sacramento Bee. "I didn't think it was possible that I might be the most talented player in the world. But after I became a pro, after my second year in Virginia, I thought that there was a possibility that I could offer something unique."

Erving was gaining recognition in the ABA, but he was still hampered by the fact that the Squires were a low-profile team in a small market. Then, prior to the 1973-74 season, the Squires traded Erving and Willie Sojourner to the New York Nets for George Carter, the draft rights to Kermit Washington and cash.

Warmed by the media attention he received in New York, Erving led the Nets to a 55-29 regular-season record and the 1974 ABA Championship. The Nets' roster also included talented youngsters Larry Kenon and Billy Paultz, and once the players got used to each other on the court, the team was unstoppable. After claiming the Eastern Division by two games, New York beat Virginia in five playoff contests and then wiped out Kentucky in four straight to reach the ABA Finals. Utah was the opponent, and the Nets dropped the Stars in five games for the crown.

Erving repeated as league scoring champ with an average of 27.4 points per game. His all-around game began to emerge as well: he ranked sixth in the league in assists and third in both steals and blocked shots. As a reward, he picked up the first of three consecutive ABA Most Valuable Player Awards.

The ABA had plenty of good players, but Erving stood out as the essence of the league. He dominated the game from the small forward spot. But more than that, he took some of the things Connie Hawkins had done in flashes, such as swoop dunks, and made them an every-night occurrence. He was always doing something new: inventing, soloing, extemporizing. He was the first to combine extended hangtime with delicate grace and pure power. Erving was the ABA's top superstar and his success in New York cemented his reputation as the most thrilling player in either league.
1975-76, a handful of ABA teams had folded or were struggling to meet payroll demands and the league was consolidated into one division for its final, tumultuous season. Nevertheless, the ABA went out with flair. At midseason, the folks who had introduced the red, white and blue ball and the three-point shot unveiled the first All-Star Game Slam-Dunk Championship. Erving outjammed Gilmore, Kenon, George Gervin and David Thompson for the title.

The Nets met the Denver Nuggets in the last ABA Finals, and Erving led New York to its second title in three seasons. In the postseason, Erving averaged 34.7 points and was named Most Valuable Player of the playoffs. For the third time in four seasons, he claimed the scoring crown, averaging 29.3 points. In what was practically a foregone conclusion, he was honored with his third consecutive MVP trophy. In his five ABA seasons Erving had won two championships, three MVP trophies and three scoring titles.

The ABA era was over. The NBA had to have Julius Erving and to get him, they had to take the rest of the league, too. So the Nets, San Antonio Spurs, Denver Nuggets, and Indiana Pacers were absorbed into the NBA for the next season, with the rest of the ABA players dispersed in a draft.
On the eve of the 1976-77 campaign, the greatest player in the game was locked in a salary dispute with the Nets. When it couldn't be resolved, New York sold him for $3 million to the Philadelphia 76ers only 24 hours before the start of the season. In Philadelphia, Erving joined George McGinnis, another high-scoring former ABA star, as well as offense-minded guards Lloyd B. Free (later World B. Free) and Doug Collins.

Sizing up the situation, Erving subverted some of his more sensational abilities and offensive instincts in the interest of team success. Because of that, he seemed to fall short of his advance publicity -- at least until the 1977 NBA All-Star Game, when he seized the opportunity to display the artistry that had made him the most exciting player in the ABA. He scored 30 points, grabbed 12 boards, made 4 steals and walked off with the MVP trophy. He also seized the opportunity to be a successful pitchman endorsing products and became one of the games' first players to have a shoe marketed under his name.

On the court in that first year, Erving scored 21.6 points per game, leading the Sixers to a 50-32 record and the Atlantic Division title. The playoffs, however, were a struggle. Philadelphia had to go seven games to vanquish the Boston Celtics and six games to dispatch the Houston Rockets. In the NBA Finals against Portland, the Sixers won the first two games before the Trail Blazers, led by Bill Walton, roared back with four straight victories to claim the crown.

Philadelphia's management realized that it needed to build a team of players who could complement Erving, not the other way around. During the next few years General Manager Pat Williams rebuilt the Sixers, acquiring such talent as defensive genius Bobby Jones and floor general Maurice Cheeks. Although Philadelphia spent 1978 and 1979 as a bridesmaid to Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld of the Washington Bullets in the East, the team was improving. And Erving had elevated his game even further, establishing himself as a permanent fixture on the All-NBA First Team.

By all accounts, Erving was playing at a higher level than the rest of the league. In 1980 he was one of two active players named to the NBA 35th Anniversary All-Time Team. (Abdul-Jabbar was the other.) For the 1979-80 season, Erving averaged 26.9 points, his highest NBA scoring average and ranked fourth in the league behind Gervin, Free (now a San Diego Clipper) and Adrian Dantley.

The Sixers also began a concerted four-year assault on the NBA Playoffs. After a 59-23 regular season, Philadelphia waded easily through Washington, Atlanta, and Boston (led by rookie Larry Bird) to take the Eastern Conference crown. In a hotly contested NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, Erving was spectacular as the teams split the first four games.

In Game 4 Erving made the legendary "Baseline Move" that would go down as one of the most spectacular shots in NBA history. First he drove past defender Mark Landsberger along the right baseline and left his feet on that side of the backboard with a layup in mind. His route to the rim was quickly blocked by Abdul-Jabbar's outstretched arms. Erving brought the ball back down and just continued to float, seemingly forever, passing behind the backboard while appearing to glide slightly to the left in midair. He finally cleared all the way to the other side of the hoop, reached back in toward the court and put up a soft, underhanded scoop for the score.
"Here I was, trying to win a championship, and my mouth just dropped open," Magic Johnson, then a rookie, recalled. "He actually did that. I thought, 'What should we do? Should we take the ball out or should we ask him to do it again?'"

Johnson had the final say, however. The Lakers won Game 5 to take a one-game lead in the series. In Game 6 at Philadelphia, Johnson filled in at center for the injured Abdul-Jabbar and scored 42 points to lead the Lakers to the title.

The next season, 1980-81, was Erving's greatest individual year. He was named NBA Most Valuable Player after scoring 24.6 ppg while chalking up career highs with 364 assists (4.4 apg) and 173 steals. Philadelphia and Boston rang up identical 62-20 records during the regular season, setting up a showdown in the Eastern Conference Finals. Erving paced the Sixers to a 3-1 lead, but Bird's Celtics stormed back for three straight wins and a springboard to the NBA title.

Playoff disappointment only whetted Erving's appetite. He was relentless again in 1981-82, scoring 24.4 ppg and earning another spot on the All-NBA First Team. It was taken for granted that the 76ers would dominate in the regular season. The question was, how far could they advance in the playoffs? In the 1982 Eastern Conference Finals the Sixers again met the Celtics, who had been five games better during the year.

Philadelphia again built a two-game lead to push Boston to the brink of elimination, and again the Celtics roared back to force a seventh game. But this time the Sixers prevailed, winning Game 7, 120-106, to advance to the NBA Finals. The Lakers proved too tough once more, however, winning the series in six games for their second championship in three seasons.

Philadelphia had built a consistent winner around Erving, but the team lacked one important piece to complete the championship puzzle. The Sixers needed a dominant center to combat Abdul-Jabbar. With that in mind, General Manager Pat Williams traded Caldwell Jones and a first-round draft choice to the Houston Rockets for Moses Malone, who had succeeded Erving as NBA Most Valuable Player in 1981-82. Now the team had an immovable object to complement Dr. J's irresistible force.

The Sixers went 65-17 in the regular season, behind 24.5 ppg from Malone and 21.4 ppg from Erving. Both players were named to the All-NBA First Team at season's end and Malone repeated as NBA Most Valuable Player. But Philadelphia won with its depth, surrounding the two superstars with Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney and Bobby Jones.

The Sixers ripped through the 1983 NBA Playoffs, winning eight of nine preliminary-round games to meet a familiar foe in the Finals. For the third time in four years, the Sixers and the Lakers squared off for the NBA title. But this meeting lacked the drama of the previous two: Philadelphia overpowered Los Angeles in four straight, giving Erving his first NBA championship ring.

After the championship season Erving was in the golden years of his career. He still played well but relied more on intelligence than on the raw physical skills that had been his trademark. In the 1984 NBA All-Star Game, the kind of exhibition in which he could still showcase his skills, he came up huge and poured in 34 points.

As Erving's career wound down, so did the Sixers, after nearly a decade among the league's elite. Philadelphia was in transition, with younger players such as Charles Barkley arriving on the scene. After Erving announced that he would retire following the 1986-87 season, the campaign turned into the Julius Erving farewell tour. He was honored in every NBA arena, as fans across the country showed their love and admiration for one of the greatest players the game had ever seen.
Erving retired at age 37, having scored more than 30,000 points in his combined ABA and NBA career. Erving scored 22.0 points per game in his 11 NBA seasons with Philadelphia and 28.7 points per game in his 5 ABA seasons with Virginia and New York. In 1993, Erving was elected to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.

Since his retirement, Erving has forged a successful business and basketball executive career. His investments include: ownership of a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Philadelphia, as well as cable television stations in New York and New Jersey. And after working as an in-studio analyst for NBC during it's coverage of the NBA since 1993, Erving joined the Orlando Magic's front office staff as Vice President of RDV Sports and Executive Vice President of the Magic on June 4, 1997.

Career Highlishts:

Career stats
Points 30,026
Steals 2,272
Rebounds 10,525
Career highlights and awards
1x NBA Champion (1983)
1x NBA MVP (1981)
11x NBA All-Star (1977-1987)
5x All-NBA First Team Selection (1978, 1980-1983)
2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1977, 1984)
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
1x J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
2x ABA Champion (1974, 1976)
3x ABA MVP (1974-1976)
5x ABA All-Star (1972-1976)
2x ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
4x All-ABA First Team (1973-1976)
1x All-ABA Second Team (1972)
1x All-ABA Defensive First Team
1972 ABA All-Rookie First Team

NBA Hall of FAME 1993

Career NBA Statistics
G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
836 .507 .261 .777 5,601 6.7 3,224 3.9 1,508 1,293 18,364 22.0

Stats @ Basketball-Reference.com
Bio NBA.com

Not bad for a player who had no jump shot, was not known for his passing, his defense, his rebounding, or his team leadership.





wil.
 

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True, but we are talking talent here, not winners.
 

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