Disagree Willie. Even on the occasional trips (I probably average 10 trips a year between Vegas and Tahoe), I extended my playing time and had more winning trips once I learned the game and understood the math behind it and what bets were less in the casino's favor. When I first started playing in my 20's, I'd lose 8-9 times out of 10. Once I got a better understanding of the math of the game, it was more like 6 out of 10 (and I've had some great streaks also....my best ever being 21 out of 24 winning trips). As stated, if I'm getting comped on each trip, I look at the savings on the room (and whatever else I get...Tahoe tends to do steak meals and sometimes massages) and just look at it as the cost of entertainment. I have no intention of making the bad bets or try to pretend I know the next roll of the dice. I know where I've been on this game and I've done better making the lower house edge wagers.
Disagree Willie. Even on the occasional trips (I probably average 10 trips a year between Vegas and Tahoe), I extended my playing time and had more winning trips once I learned the game and understood the math behind it and what bets were less in the casino's favor. When I first started playing in my 20's, I'd lose 8-9 times out of 10. Once I got a better understanding of the math of the game, it was more like 6 out of 10 (and I've had some great streaks also....my best ever being 21 out of 24 winning trips). As stated, if I'm getting comped on each trip, I look at the savings on the room (and whatever else I get...Tahoe tends to do steak meals and sometimes massages) and just look at it as the cost of entertainment. I have no intention of making the bad bets or try to pretend I know the next roll of the dice. I know where I've been on this game and I've done better making the lower house edge wagers.
Yep, and as mentioned, in addition to upping my winning percentage, my playing time was also extended which led to comp offers. Admittedly, my only goal is to win so I won't purposely extend my playing time to increase my duration if I've had a good run. With that said, I'd rarely get comps before and now I consistently get them in Tahoe (haven't paid for a room in years) and get occasional room comps (or heavily discounted rooms) in Vegas.
Since the math is against you, the house has the vig even if you play perfectly, how is that possible? You're arguing it's all about the math and then telling us you're beating the math.
Obviously, to win long term, you have to be making decisions at the tables that are helping you beat the math, and it's more than just simple math.
PS: the math doesn't change no matter who's rolling the dice, so if you really play with or against somebody based on how they play or how they rolled, you're using intuition and not simple math
Where did I say I was beating the math? I said I went from losing 8-9x out of ten, to losing 6 times out of 10. I'm saying my losses decreased once I started making wagers that reduced the casino advantage. And with that also came comp offers which were a value to me. No one is going to beat the game (that's more than obvious). I think you made my point by saying "the math doesn't change no matter who's rolling the dice". I agree. Which is exactly why I don't waste my time with trends or thinking I can predict rolls. Making decisions that increase the house advantage to anywhere from 6-16% is foolish as far as I'm concerned. If it works for you, great. My 35+ year history of playing the game proves otherwise to me.
Also meant to add....show me someone that claims they win long term playing any table games at a casino (including craps), and 99.99% of the time, I'll show you a liar. The vast majority of people do not win long terms gambling. We both know that. But it's easy to talk a good show on the internet (and we both know posters on the internet that make outrageous claims like that). Which usually produces a chuckle and an eye roll from me.
i agree the only times i play a hard way is two way for the dealers......i am a firm believer that it helps with my rating(average bet) because most boxmen were once dealers
again no c and e or field etc............i do pass line with odds and place the inside numbers followed by a come bet and "come" down with odds.........
still need REPEATERS no matter how we play........
good luck to all dice players ........
My last post in this thread since I hate pissing contests. BFL my friend, when you said you won 21 out of 23 trips, and I believe you, I take that as "beating the math". When you start playing with or fading certain players (I think you're the one who said that early in this thread), that's introducing something other than math. When you say "I'm doing bettet because I stopped making high vig bets", I say "no fucking shit" (with a smile my friend)
When I say shit happens and when numbers are repeating themselves I bet into those trends, I'm not saying I can predict the next number, that's kinda funny.
Do people stay at cold tables or walk away? Why?
Is there such a thing as a hot table? In any form if gambling?
Does a dealer ever tell you to stay away because the table's been awful? Why do they do that? Do you or would you listen?
Observation and adjustment and money management are all very important. I start out playing the pass with max odds, but that's subject to change in my world, and that works for me.
When I say shit happens and when numbers are repeating themselves I bet into those trends, I'm not saying I can predict the next number, that's kinda funny.
Do people stay at cold tables or walk away? Why?
Is there such a thing as a hot table? In any form if gambling?
Does a dealer ever tell you to stay away because the table's been awful? Why do they do that? Do you or would you listen?
Observation and adjustment and money management are all very important. I start out playing the pass with max odds, but that's subject to change in my world, and that works for me.
I don't consider this a pissing contest at all. I think it's a very respectful conversation and we have a disagreement.
Nope, never said I fade or play with certain players. It doesn't matter to me (they have no control over the dice). I also don't pay any attention to people/dealers telling me a table is cold or hot (no way for them to know that except in hindsight). I don't adjust anything. I play lower house edge wagers and stick with it. I think if you're playing into a trend, you are indeed implying that you have some knowledge of what numbers will come up with next (call it intuition or whatever you want). I'm saying that all rolls are independent regardless of what's happened in the past and there's no rational reason for me to think differently.
There is no such thing as "beating the math" in -EV games. Every bet you make is a losing bet at craps, every single one.
Now, if someone wants to play for entertainment purposes, I understand that. I sometimes play video poker for purely entertainment, knowing that I'm playing at a small disadvantage.
But, the idea that you can sometimes "time" the table, and play a "hot" table and turn the edge in your favor is a fallacy.
I've had the same Host for 9 years, and told her upfront that you will never get the 4-6 hours you are looking for in a player for comps.
She understands at my level of play that's what I'll do. and I'm not there to play for Comps.
Not easy standing at a craps table for hours on end.
If I'm getting killed after 30 minutes, I will walk ... maybe to another table, maybe not.
I have a set amount per day, once that amount is gone, I'm done for the day.
I have played as little as 20 minutes, and as long as 3.5 hours. If I had to guess, in all my life playing craps I might have stayed at a table for 4.5, and that was only once.
Like any Casino table, the longer you play, the better chance the Casino will get you.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/2/
That's all that matters. It's a completely rudimentary game with no real strategy. The best way to win/lose less is to just play with the lowest house edge.
Or become a dice control expert like myself (j/k)
That's all that matters. It's a completely rudimentary game with no real strategy. The best way to win/lose less is to just play with the lowest house edge.
Or become a dice control expert like myself (j/k)
Small correction. Every craps bet is a losing (or even) bet.
[h=3]Craps House Edge[/h]
| Bet | Pays | Expected Rolls | House Edge Per Bet Made | House Edge Per Bet Resolved | House Edge Per Roll |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pass | 1 to 1 | 3.38 | 1.41% | 1.41% | 0.42% |
| Don't Pass | 1 to 1 | 3.47 | 1.36% | 1.40% | 0.40% |
| Taking Odds 6 and 8 | 6 to 5 | 3.27 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Taking Odds 5 and 9 | 3 to 2 | 3.60 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Taking Odds 4 and 10 | 2 to 1 | 4.00 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 6 and 8 | 5 to 6 | 3.27 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 5 and 9 | 2 to 3 | 3.60 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 4 and 10 | 1 to 2 | 4.00 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Place 6 and 8 | 7 to 6 | 3.27 | 0.46% | 1.52% | 0.46% |
| Place 5 and 9 | 7 to 5 | 3.60 | 1.11% | 4.00% | 1.11% |
| Place 4 and 10 | 9 to 5 | 4.00 | 1.67% | 6.67% | 1.67% |
| Big 6 and 8 | 1 to 1 | 3.27 | 2.78% | 9.09% | 2.78% |
| Don't Place 6 and 8 | 4 to 5 | 3.27 | 0.56% | 1.82% | 0.56% |
| Don't Place 5 and 9 | 5 to 8 | 3.60 | 0.69% | 2.50% | 0.69% |
| Don't Place 4 and 10 | 5 to 11 | 4.00 | 0.76% | 3.03% | 0.76% |
| Buy 6 and 8 * | 23 to 21 | 3.27 | 1.46% | 4.76% | 1.46% |
| Buy 5 and 9 * | 29 to 21 | 3.60 | 1.32% | 4.76% | 1.32% |
| Buy 4 and 10 * | 39 to 21 | 4.00 | 1.19% | 4.76% | 1.19% |
| Buy 6 and 8 ** | 23 to 20 | 3.27 | 0.69% | 2.27% | 0.69% |
| Buy 5 and 9 ** | 29 to 20 | 3.60 | 0.56% | 2.00% | 0.56% |
| Buy 4 and 10 ** | 39 to 20 | 4.00 | 0.42% | 1.67% | 0.42% |
| Lay 6 and 8 * | 19 to 25 | 3.27 | 1.22% | 4.00% | 1.22% |
| Lay 5 and 9 * | 19 to 31 | 3.60 | 0.90% | 3.23% | 0.90% |
| Lay 4 and 10 * | 19 to 41 | 4.00 | 0.61% | 2.44% | 0.61% |
| Lay 6 and 8 ** | 19 to 24 | 3.27 | 0.69% | 2.27% | 0.69% |
| Lay 5 and 9 ** | 19 to 30 | 3.60 | 0.56% | 2.00% | 0.56% |
| Lay 4 and 10 ** | 19 to 40 | 4.00 | 0.42% | 1.67% | 0.42% |
| Hard 6 and 8 (US) | 9 to 1 | 3.27 | 2.78% | 9.09% | 2.78% |
| Hard 6 and 8 (AU) | 19 to 2 | 3.60 | 1.39% | 4.55% | 1.26% |
| Hard 4 and 10 (US) | 7 to 1 | 4.00 | 2.78% | 11.11% | 2.78% |
| Hard 4 and 10 (AU) | 15 to 2 | 4.00 | 1.39% | 5.56% | 1.39% |
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I seldom get in the "4 hour minimum" most casinos claim you must have to get a comp. In Tahoe, it's actually a point system and if you get to Gold or higher (I was Platinum last year), you'll never pay for a room (and usually get comp chips, food credit...in addition to the credit you earn from your play, and sometimes free spa certificates for $125...which would you can use for a massage, etc.). In Vegas, I get marketing offers for free or discounted rooms (no host there). I never play for the "comp". Like you, I have win and loss limits. I've had trips were I've gotten off to a great start and will just coast the rest of the trip (i.e. very light sports wagers, or possibly finding a low limit Pai Gow Poker games where I tend to tie 80% of my hands and never seem to win or lose more than $100). My normal session time is typically less than 2 hours.
The only wager in any casino that there's no vig for the house is taking odds at a craps game
- Counting cards at BJ can easily yield +EV wager
- It's fairly common for Video Poker to have +EV situations, especially when accounting for comps, you have to pay close attention to the pay tables
- Obviously skilled poker players can make money in casino poker rooms
Other than that, hard to find +EV situations in a casino...
To each his own when it comes to craps. I will play craps 4 or 5 times a year and I'm not there to win a couple hundred bucks. I'm going to play hard and go for a big hit. I play full odds, place 6 and 8 and have a couple come bets, and am not afraid to throw money in the middle on the "dumb" bets. I press half my original bet and just keep pressing. Yep I lose more often than I win but when I win it's usually pretty good. You haven't had a good run at a craps table until you finally sevened out and saw them rake off over a grand of your money left on the table but still hit em good. Like I say, to each his own.
That's all relative. A "good run" is clearly dependent on what your level of play is at. I have a client that wouldn't bat an eye at having a grand raked off (that's his standard wager). He doesn't need to make the "dumb" bets or press anything to get his total up or to have a grand raked off. He's also not impressing anyone with that (nor is he trying too). His father budgets a million dollars a year for gambling and thinks nothing of it if he loses that. I have another client who bets more than that and stays at the Mansions at the MGM. As you said, to each his own. Those guys light cigars with one hundred dollar bills and live in one of the nicest areas in San Francisco in 9000 sf homes (and have multiple properties around the nation). They're great clients and I enjoy their gambling stories. That's not my bankroll (can't imagine that it's many peoples).
If I pick up in excess of a thousand, I'm a happy camper and that's a "good run" for me. I don't need to have them rake off a grand. If somehow that's your gauge of a good run, more power to you. Enjoy yourself.
Sorry. I guess I should have said you left a large part of what you came to the craps table with on the table.....whether that was $200 or $20,000. The point was when you leave that much there you won a bunch getting to that point. And no, I wasn't trying to "impress" anybody by saying I left a grand on the table. Congrats on having some rich clients.........who you are not trying to "impress" anyone with.
Yeah, I got what you were saying the first time. So you left a grand on the table and won a bunch getting there. Big deal. Like I said, it's all relative and leaving a grand on the table doesn't really mean much. Guys like that are a dime a dozen at places like the Wynn and the Cosmopolitan. If I was trying to impress someone, I'd lie and say my clients were me. But actually I said "that's not my bankroll", so clearly not trying to impress anyone. Admittedly, when someone says "you haven't had a good run until...", it sounds like you WERE trying to impress. Who are you to say when someone's had a good run? I was trying to keep things in perspective and illustrate that your run would be nothing to lots of people (and would be impressive to others). Big deal. It's all relative.
