Atheism not a Belief System?

bilbal · Dec 9, 2008

Preussen said:
Bilbal, even if it was to be expected, I confess I'm a little surprised that you really have the nerve for this answer. You openly admit that you think it correct to call someone names just because you feel he might be wrong even though you are entirely unable to disprove his argumentation and in fact are not even trying to provide any indications that the argumentation might be wrong. This is like calling someone a 'loser' who has just destroyed you in a sports competition in which you couldn't even be bothered to put in a good effort, without any explanation as to why that person should, against all visible facts, be a loser, just because you feel that any result that does not agree with you cannot be right so insults are in order.

It was fun while it lasted, but such childish behaviour by you shows me that it is high time to end this farce. Please don't expect me (and probably any other sensible person who read this thread, may he agree with my positions or not) to take you seriously ever again.
Not that I believe this will bother you in any way, of course. Have fun in your own small mental world where you are the king and make your own rules.

kingbill · Dec 9, 2008

Atheist shouldn't even be a word...what do you call some one who doesn't believe in Santa?

timotinbowen · Dec 9, 2008

kingbill said:
Atheist shouldn't even be a word...what do you call some one who doesn't believe in Santa?

ACluasism. And your disbelief in Santa is founded on a system of beliefs. Because you believe that you don't believe in him. Believe me.

random1323 · Dec 9, 2008

you made me smile

Lt.Dan · Dec 9, 2008

Freedom of religion is a right granted by the Constitution. The problems arise when you have religious zealots like Bush, Palin, Huck et al trying to cram it down your throat. We are not a christian nation, we are a nation of many denominations.

The bottom line is, wrap rosary beads around your house, post the 10 commandments on your lawn or stand on your head in the corner and recite your mantra but keep it out of any form of government. This also goes for non-believers.

BTW, true Fascists like those in the present administration consider any religion that is not protestant unworthy of being our "national religion."

Bush wanted a 21st century "Crusade", w/ the good guys against the bad guys. Just 1 of his very ignorant and ill conceived ideas. 42 days and counting!

koidog · Dec 9, 2008

Dan,
First off I must have missed were Bush tried to make a National Religion. There was a Hell of a lot more religion in the Public square 50 years ago than there is now.

Second, this thread was about What an Athiest believes not about our "right" to Religion.

Zit obviously has ZERO idea what an Athiest is, and you have very little idea about our Nations History.

Stocks · Dec 9, 2008

Lt. Dan said:
Bush wanted a 21st century "Crusade", w/ the good guys against the bad guys. Just 1 of his very ignorant and ill conceived ideas. 42 days and counting!

I though about that once war the war in Iraq a 21st century Crusade. I dont believe this one way or another but some say that the Masons who were and are largely involved in Americian politics used to be the Knights templar who were involved in the origional crusades.

I'm not trying to say this is fact or believe it, I'm just saying I've thought about it before

festeringZit · Dec 9, 2008

koidog said:
Dan,
First off I must have missed were Bush tried to make a National Religion. There was a Hell of a lot more religion in the Public square 50 years ago than there is now.

Second, this thread was about What an Athiest believes not about our "right" to Religion.

Zit obviously has ZERO idea what an Athiest is, and you have very little idea about our Nations History.

I know exactly what an atheist is, but you can post your little
quips with no substance in truth if it makes you feel better.

hno:

festeringZit · Dec 9, 2008

rolltide said:
believing in nothing is not a belief system

It sure is.

koidog · Dec 9, 2008

festeringZit said:
I know exactly what an atheist is, but you can post your little
quips with no substance in truth if it makes you feel better.

hno:

My quips? Dude I'm an Athiest, yet I don't fit that definition of Naturalist you posted...doesn't that defeat your whole premise?

festeringZit · Dec 9, 2008

koidog said:
My quips? Dude I'm an Athiest, yet I don't fit that definition of Naturalist you posted...doesn't that defeat your whole premise?

No, not at all.

My premise is that atheism is a belief system, and that all atheists
have belief systems.

Do me a favor, and tell me which of the tenets of naturalism I outlined
that you agree with, and which ones you don't.

Preussen · Dec 10, 2008

My premise is that atheism is a belief system, and that all atheists
have belief systems.

Zit, these are obviously two premises, with one of them being false.

You didn't bother to provide me with a definition of 'belief system' but after a little research it appears that in this context it does indeed not necessarily have to have religious connotations ("faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society"), therefore I'm prepared to agree that all atheist will have belief systems of some sort or other.

However, as has been pointed out multiple times and as you yourself have proved in your first posts, atheism is simply the denial of the existence of a God. How can one thought/belief be a system, a set of beliefs?

But I guess you will conveniently ignore this question, like you do so often when you have no proper reply.

festeringZit · Dec 10, 2008

Preussen said:
Zit, these are obviously two premises, with one of them being false.

You didn't bother to provide me with a definition of 'belief system' but after a little research it appears that in this context it does indeed not necessarily have to have religious connotations ("faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society"), therefore I'm prepared to agree that all atheist will have belief systems of some sort or other.

However, as has been pointed out multiple times and as you yourself have proved in your first posts, atheism is simply the denial of the existence of a God. How can one thought/belief be a system, a set of beliefs?

But I guess you will conveniently ignore this question, like you do so often when you have no proper reply.

Preussen,

Let's both of us cut out the childish rhetoric, it adds nothing to the
discussion.

Now, it appears that your whole argument is that atheism is not
a belief system (system of beliefs) because it is only one belief, that
being a belief that there is no God - and thus only being a singular
belief and not a set of beliefs?

I would argue that implicit in the belief that there is no God, comes
with it a whole set of other beliefs that must follow.

Also, take a look at the Wiki page on atheism, there are 8 pages on there
trying to describe what atheism is, and what the belief system entails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

random1323 · Dec 10, 2008

zit maybe you should look up belief and system first.

Preussen · Dec 10, 2008

festeringZit said:
Let's both of us cut out the childish rhetoric, it adds nothing to the discussion.

Interesting that you, of all people, accuse me of using childish rhethoric.

Now, it appears that your whole argument is that atheism is not
a belief system (system of beliefs) because it is only one belief, that
being a belief that there is no God - and thus only being a singular
belief and not a set of beliefs?

Basically yes, assuming that in this context the word 'belief' has no religious connotations.

I would argue that implicit in the belief that there is no God, comes
with it a whole set of other beliefs that must follow.

No, it's not implicit, that's exactly the point I (and many others in this thread) are trying to make. Yes, of course atheists have sets of beliefs that make up their world view, but that does not change the fact that atheism as such is still only the simple denial of the existence of a God and thus cannot be a belief system.

Also, take a look at the Wiki page on atheism, there are 8 pages on there trying to describe what atheism is, and what the belief system entails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Very interesting, lots of information. However, I failed to find anything there that reinforces your position. On the contrary, the amount of material there rather seems to show that being an atheist does not necessitate a certain world view.

festeringZit · Dec 10, 2008

Preussen said:
Interesting that you, of all people, accuse me of using childish rhethoric.

Um, that is why I said we both should quit, because we are both guilty.

barman · Dec 10, 2008

festeringZit said:
Um, that is why I said we both should quit, because we are both guilty.

Four pages later, this Topic grinds down to an agreeable ending

HiPockets · Dec 10, 2008

Late to the party. Good points all. I am an atheist and appreciate the passion and logic in this thread (I read every post). Your posts pushed my thoughts and probably the thoughts of others in RX. Good job.

koidog · Dec 10, 2008

festeringZit said:
No, not at all.

My premise is that atheism is a belief system, and that all atheists
have belief systems.

Do me a favor, and tell me which of the tenets of naturalism I outlined
that you agree with, and which ones you don't.

I'm guessing the only acceptable answer to those 6 tenents are "God did it" but I'll giv eit a shot anyway. BTW, I already agreed that most (not all) athiest do indeed make it a "believe system" but being a Athiest alone is NOT a believe system.

6 Tenets of the Naturalistic Belief System:

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]1. Matter/Energy is all there is for eternity, and no supernatural God exists in reality.
To the naturalist, reality does not include any "spirit" beings or supernatural God "above nature", ...but the prime reality is only the material cosmos (possibly in the form of energy) with all its forces, functioning according to unalterable "laws" of physics and chemistry. Naturalism is actually Atheism. As I don't believe in God [/FONT]
obviously the 2nd part applies. But I don't believe Matter/Energy is there for eternity.

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]2. The universe is a closed system which functions only by cause and effect.
Seeing the universe a "closed" system, means that it is never changed or acted upon by anything from the "outside". So, to the naturalist, there is no such thing as a transcendent being, or "God", above or outside the cosmos ----there is no "supernatural"---- nor does man transcend the material/energy universe in any way, but he exists totally within the realm and reality of that universe of matter. [/FONT]
Again, really just stupid. I don't believe in God, so of course I'd say it's a "closed" system by this inane definition.

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]3. Man is a "machine", whose personality and thinking are merely a result of matter's properties.
Man does not "transcend" the material cosmos by possessing a "spirit"; rather, all that man is, comes from the properties and forces of matter, evidently organized by the processes of natural evolution. Man is basically a highly evolved animal. [/FONT]
From now until the end of time I will NOT define my being as a "machine" Having witnessed child Birth I am amazed by the "impossibilty" of it all. It's wonderous and frankly behind my comprehension. What a HORRIBLY "closed" definition you give here. But unlike you just because I don't have the answers and can't explain the Wonderment of it all doesn't make me leap to "God did it"

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]4. Human death is merely the ceasing of biological life, including the extinction of personality.
In this view, no human spirit, personality or mind continues beyond the death of the body. At death, human existence ends totally, except perhaps figuratively in the memory of others, and in genes passed down to offspring. [/FONT]
Yup, you die and you're worm food.

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]5. Ethics and morality ---any sense of right and wrong--- are only inventions of man's thinking.
All values are self-determined by man, and only exist in the mind of man. There is no natural moral law, and no absolute standard of right and wrong. Instead, as the Humanist Manifesto II states: "Ethics isautonomous and situational, needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest." Perhaps human survival defines what is "good". [/FONT]
Again I have a HUGE problem with this closed definition. "God" did NOT give me my morals.I do believe there is a Natural Moral Law, but again it just is, it's not from God. I pride myself in living to High Moral Standards. I don't lie, cheat or steal (at least not to benefit myself) I am faithful to my wife and will be until the day I die. I am appalled that this is not just the norm. History tells me truly Moral men have NOT lived by "there is not absolute standard of right and wrong" and some of those men were indeed Athiest. Yet they didn't accept Morals of the time, when they knew them to be wrong.

[FONT=Arial,helvetica]6. History is an unrepeated line of events related by cause and effect, without a real purpose.
Exactly how or if the universe came to be, is unknown, ...and it will apparently go on forever. There is no overall purpose or meaning to the course of history, and no goal to which it is heading. History and human events only have whatever meaning humans may give to them. [/FONT]
Origin of the Universe is unknown, but I asume it will end. Again the definition at teh end I find horrid. I believe I have a purpose, I believe in Karma, doing good comes back to you.