<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey C:
Stew:
Over time, one can't beat the crap table.
On any given day, one could go to a table today, hold the dice for 2 hours and win 500 Dimes, but over time, making the same plays, for the same amounts you will get juiced out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Joey:
What is your point? Are you not saying the same thing I said?
"Now I will agree, that if you play long enough, for an infinite amount of time, the house advantage will win. But over the short run, you have a better chance of winning money from a casino by playing craps, than by playing any other game of chance."
Stew:
Over time, one can't beat the crap table.
On any given day, one could go to a table today, hold the dice for 2 hours and win 500 Dimes, but over time, making the same plays, for the same amounts you will get juiced out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Joey:
What is your point? Are you not saying the same thing I said?
"Now I will agree, that if you play long enough, for an infinite amount of time, the house advantage will win. But over the short run, you have a better chance of winning money from a casino by playing craps, than by playing any other game of chance."
Games you can win at the casino if you know what you're doing:
Video Poker, Blackjack, Tournaments, 3 Card Poker, Sports Betting
There are some others but the methods are not really mainstream... for example, if you find a dealer who has a repetitive spin, in other words, it spins about the same number of times with that dealer, you can win at the Big 6 wheel.
Another way to win at craps is craps tournaments by the way. Craps tournaments can be quite lucrative.
I don't believe the controlled dice thing can be done by more than a handful of people, and I also don't believe it's illegal. It's a skill, and you are still playing by the casinos rules. You're not using any machines at all. I see nothing illegal about it. Just like casinos have convinced many that card counting is illegal. It is not.
The problem with determining an edge (among other problems) with controlled dice throwing is that you need a lot of throws until you are statistically significant and can determine you have an edge. It could take a long time to reach the long run, and a player could be deceiving himself the whole time.
Also, the Scoblete and Patrick books will not help you get an edge. Sorry.
David
Video Poker, Blackjack, Tournaments, 3 Card Poker, Sports Betting
There are some others but the methods are not really mainstream... for example, if you find a dealer who has a repetitive spin, in other words, it spins about the same number of times with that dealer, you can win at the Big 6 wheel.
Another way to win at craps is craps tournaments by the way. Craps tournaments can be quite lucrative.
I don't believe the controlled dice thing can be done by more than a handful of people, and I also don't believe it's illegal. It's a skill, and you are still playing by the casinos rules. You're not using any machines at all. I see nothing illegal about it. Just like casinos have convinced many that card counting is illegal. It is not.
The problem with determining an edge (among other problems) with controlled dice throwing is that you need a lot of throws until you are statistically significant and can determine you have an edge. It could take a long time to reach the long run, and a player could be deceiving himself the whole time.
Also, the Scoblete and Patrick books will not help you get an edge. Sorry.
David
Joey:
Evidently you don't have a point, because you didn't make it, and that's fine. But I do. My point was that David's statement, "you can't win at craps", is misleading and erroneous. Hell, you CAN win at the lottery, but the odds are stacked against you. And then DM proceeds to prove that the casino odds against you while playing proper strategy at craps, are the lowest you will ever find in the casino.
So my point again is that you can win at craps; the odds against you while playing proper strategy craps are the lowest you will find in the casino. Now if you or DM or Strut would like to argue with that, we can continue.
Evidently you don't have a point, because you didn't make it, and that's fine. But I do. My point was that David's statement, "you can't win at craps", is misleading and erroneous. Hell, you CAN win at the lottery, but the odds are stacked against you. And then DM proceeds to prove that the casino odds against you while playing proper strategy at craps, are the lowest you will ever find in the casino.
So my point again is that you can win at craps; the odds against you while playing proper strategy craps are the lowest you will find in the casino. Now if you or DM or Strut would like to argue with that, we can continue.
"I don't believe the controlled dice thing can be done by more than a handful of people, and I also don't believe it's illegal"
Dave this is ABSOLUTELY illegal. I know a guy who is barred from shooting at Binion's and a few other joints. I know a few guys in NY who are even better then him. These guys can wipe out a house game in all areas. Pad rolls, 3 rail spins, holding a die up, straight slides. There are plenty of dice switching scams too One way is with dice called tops they have on them 4-5-6 on opposite sides. Bring a couple of paper clips if you ever go to a house game and throw them on the table if the paper clips stand straight up YOU IN TROUBLE BABY! (-;
Dave this is ABSOLUTELY illegal. I know a guy who is barred from shooting at Binion's and a few other joints. I know a few guys in NY who are even better then him. These guys can wipe out a house game in all areas. Pad rolls, 3 rail spins, holding a die up, straight slides. There are plenty of dice switching scams too One way is with dice called tops they have on them 4-5-6 on opposite sides. Bring a couple of paper clips if you ever go to a house game and throw them on the table if the paper clips stand straight up YOU IN TROUBLE BABY! (-;
Stew I think you should consider rethinking your post that craps is "the best short run casino game" that is false, that answer belongs to the lowest juice game and that is Bacarrat. It takes close to 100million hands of Bacarat for a casino to have a 95% chance of beating any single one person.
However few games can one turn $1 into $900 in a minute, regardless of take.
However few games can one turn $1 into $900 in a minute, regardless of take.
WOW!!! This thread is outta control with errors and misinformation. Let's start with this...David Matthews posted this in the first post of this thread...
The reason people think that playing odds lowers the house edge is because you now have $600 in action but are only expected to lose the same $1.40 as you would have with the $100 bet so it appears that percentagewise the house edge is lower... in a sense it is, but in another sense it is not.
Now David, I have the sense to see that the house edge is lowered from 1.4% to .2333% ($1.40 divided by $600), but could you explain in what sense (or nonsense) that the house edge is not lowered?
The reason people think that playing odds lowers the house edge is because you now have $600 in action but are only expected to lose the same $1.40 as you would have with the $100 bet so it appears that percentagewise the house edge is lower... in a sense it is, but in another sense it is not.
Now David, I have the sense to see that the house edge is lowered from 1.4% to .2333% ($1.40 divided by $600), but could you explain in what sense (or nonsense) that the house edge is not lowered?
Sodium Pentethol V;
I have rethought my post about properly played craps being a lower house edge game than Baccarat, and I still come to the conclusion that I am correct. Now, I admit that I have never played Baccarat, (hell, I don't even own a tuxedo), but I looked up the house edge and it is quoted as 1.17% for bets on the bank and 1.36% for bets on the player. Both of those figures are quite a bit higher than the .23% figure we obtain by playing the pass line with only 5 times odds, and there are plenty of places where you can get 10, 20, even 100 times odds.
This is not even to mention the "Crapless Craps" game they used to have at the Stratosphere Casino in Vegas (I haven't been there in a while, does anyone know if they still have it?). In that game, the odds were actually in the players favor to win!
PS to Joey C. Well, now you've stated your point but it really doesn't make any sense. No one has ever said that one could play for a long term and bet the odds against craps. My point and the truth is that properly played craps, ie. playing the pass/don't pass line and taking the maximum odds behind the line, offers the player a chance in winning against the casino, because the house edge is the lowest of all casino games.
I have rethought my post about properly played craps being a lower house edge game than Baccarat, and I still come to the conclusion that I am correct. Now, I admit that I have never played Baccarat, (hell, I don't even own a tuxedo), but I looked up the house edge and it is quoted as 1.17% for bets on the bank and 1.36% for bets on the player. Both of those figures are quite a bit higher than the .23% figure we obtain by playing the pass line with only 5 times odds, and there are plenty of places where you can get 10, 20, even 100 times odds.
This is not even to mention the "Crapless Craps" game they used to have at the Stratosphere Casino in Vegas (I haven't been there in a while, does anyone know if they still have it?). In that game, the odds were actually in the players favor to win!
PS to Joey C. Well, now you've stated your point but it really doesn't make any sense. No one has ever said that one could play for a long term and bet the odds against craps. My point and the truth is that properly played craps, ie. playing the pass/don't pass line and taking the maximum odds behind the line, offers the player a chance in winning against the casino, because the house edge is the lowest of all casino games.
What sense the house edge isn't lowered?
Line bet takes 1.4%, odds bet is break even.
Now tell me exactly how it is you affected the 1.4%?
You didn't, you'll break even forever on odds bets and lose 1.4% on line bets forever.
So if I bet my wife an equal sum on a coin flip after every come out roll, instead of taking odds it has exactly the same effect.
Line bet takes 1.4%, odds bet is break even.
Now tell me exactly how it is you affected the 1.4%?
You didn't, you'll break even forever on odds bets and lose 1.4% on line bets forever.
So if I bet my wife an equal sum on a coin flip after every come out roll, instead of taking odds it has exactly the same effect.
If you take 2x odds in craps the house edge is .6%. If you take 100x odds then it's pratically even.
Q:C7 What are the odds for all these bets?
A:C7 (["Winning Casino Craps" by Edwin Silberstang], Ken Elliott III)
Note that some casinos offer different payouts for prop bets, lower (promotional) commission on buy/lay bets, and collection of buy/lay bet vigorish only on winning bets, all of which change the "Casino Advantage" listed below. The numbers below represent those most commonly seen in Las Vegas.
Bet Casino Payoff Casino Advantage
Pass-Line 1:1 1.41%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Come 1:1 1.41%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Don't Pass 1:1 1.40%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Don't Come 1:1 1.40%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Place Numbers (to win)
4 or 10 9:5 6.67%
4 or 10 (bought) 2:1 (-5% commission) 4.76
5 or 9 7:5 4.0
6 or 8 7:6 1.52
Place Numbers (to lose)
4 or 10 5:11 3.03%
4 or 10 (laid) 1:2 (-5% commission) 2.44
5 or 9 5:8 2.5
6 or 8 4:5 1.82
Big 6 and Big 8 1:1 9.09%
Field
With 2 and 12 paying 2:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 5.55%
With 2 pay 3:1, 12 pay 2:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 2.77%
With 2 pay 2:1, 12 pay 3:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 2.77%
Q:C7 What are the odds for all these bets?
A:C7 (["Winning Casino Craps" by Edwin Silberstang], Ken Elliott III)
Note that some casinos offer different payouts for prop bets, lower (promotional) commission on buy/lay bets, and collection of buy/lay bet vigorish only on winning bets, all of which change the "Casino Advantage" listed below. The numbers below represent those most commonly seen in Las Vegas.
Bet Casino Payoff Casino Advantage
Pass-Line 1:1 1.41%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Come 1:1 1.41%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Don't Pass 1:1 1.40%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Don't Come 1:1 1.40%
With Single Odds 1:1 + odds 0.8
With Double Odds 1:1 + odds 0.6
Place Numbers (to win)
4 or 10 9:5 6.67%
4 or 10 (bought) 2:1 (-5% commission) 4.76
5 or 9 7:5 4.0
6 or 8 7:6 1.52
Place Numbers (to lose)
4 or 10 5:11 3.03%
4 or 10 (laid) 1:2 (-5% commission) 2.44
5 or 9 5:8 2.5
6 or 8 4:5 1.82
Big 6 and Big 8 1:1 9.09%
Field
With 2 and 12 paying 2:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 5.55%
With 2 pay 3:1, 12 pay 2:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 2.77%
With 2 pay 2:1, 12 pay 3:1 1:1 except 2 & 12 2.77%
