A Non-Anti-American, Non-Left, Non-Pacifist Reason to be Opposed to Regime-Changing Wars

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No matter how bad the regime is, we can make it worse.

We have never learned this collectively in America, because in our own country a guy on the street is typically there for a reason, and no matter what that reason, if he can get one finger on the ledge above him he can pull himself back up, start anew, and make something of himself.

In a world full of anti-Americanism, tens of thousands from around the world pile into the US annually, even as our own government transforms into a police state. Our neighbours across the border and around the world will uniformly take a sh*t on the US at any given opportunity but never hesitate to hold out a hand in times of want. And like a bunch of dupes, like an overindulgent father of some crack-whore ex-sorrority daddy's girl who keeps getting picked up for shoplifting, we always come bail them out.

Daddy makes this mistake, because he erroneously believes that the stupid cunt will change this time. America makes this mistake, because we believe that we are the "keepers" of the world -- often arrogantly, occasionally brutally, and sometimes with the most sincere of intentions. But we are wrong to do so, morally wrong.

Look at our "regime change" in the Phillipines. That country is to the US government as the average welfare mother is to the state of New York. Look at our "regime change" in Cuba. Cuba is to the US like that black sheep in the family that finally got cut off; for a while everyone was worried he'd show up on the doorstep one Thanksgiving, but hell -- the younger kids wouldn't even recognise a picture of him, so just leave it in the past.

For a more concise view of the syndrome I am describing, look no further than our last regime change, Afghanistan:

Right here.

Already the Taliban creeps back into Afghani lives. Already "The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away."

And naturally, this is chalked up as a failure of the US. It's our own fault. What we need to do is provide more troops, more money, give them just a little more time, send them some schoolteachers and doctors and while we're at it some new mothers to breastfeed the whole fvcking lot of them for a year or two until they get well and truly back on their feet. Then, they swear, seriously, swear to Allah -- no more Taliban. No more terrorists. Hallelujah, we've seen the light.

The policy of regime change doesn't work, because the tyrannical regimes which are so offensive to most Americans (like FF and myself, two people otherwise who probably could not be more ideologically counter to one another)
would not exist if they were not built on the backs of worthless, spineless, piteous scum who deserve every moment of misery their life affords them.

White, black, hispanic, arabic, aryan, hindu, asian. Rich, poor, middle class. Left, right, middle. Man, woman, child. Regardless of the circumstance of birth, which none of us can control. This isn't about an oil-soaked backwater anymore than it's about the tropical paradise that the Phillipines was for about one micrometer of it's timeline.

These words should be permanently engraved on the hall of every government of every culture which walks this earth from now on, as they are as true today as they were four hundred years ago, and will still be true in four hundred more, in four thousand, and at the end of human civilisation:

"The oppressor has nothing more than the power you confer upon him to destroy you. Where has he acquired enough eyes to spy upon you if you do not provide them yourselves? How can he have so many arms to beat you with if he does not borrow them from you? The feet that trample down your cities, where does he get them if they are not your own? How does he have any power over you except through you? How would he dare assail you if he had not cooperation from you?"

--Etienne de la Boetie, 'A Discourse of Voluntary Servitude'


America dared to declare it's independence and freedom from tyranny over two centuries ago, and fought an awful war in which we were outmanned, outgunned, and outclassed by our enemy and in which our support was practically nil. We had the French for military support, hooray. After the first Constitutional Convention the only country on the planet that would recognise the US as a sovereign nation was frickin MORROCCO. Yet from this we rose to become the most prosperous and advanced nation in the history of mankind. Our error in the policy of regime change is rooted in the noble abstract that we want better for fledgling democracies than we had coming up. Parents do the same with their kids; I certainly do so for my own son. But it is folly, plain and simple. Because if these people were worth saving, just like America did they would have gotten the ball rolling on their own years ago.

Things here are on a downward slide; I doubt that anyone on either side of the bipartisan sphere would deny that. We have better things to do with our time, money and the lives of people who dedicate themselves to the preservation of the Constitution and the institutions of liberty than to go sh*t-kicking
a bunch of guys around Iraq on possibly false pretenses. Let Hussein have them, and if the rest of the Arabic world won't recognise an homicidal maniac when they see him coming, let the whole Middle East be transformed into the Union of Secular Islamic Republics. Look how well it worked for the Soviets -- hell, wait twenty-five years and check in on the EU.

Bring the troops home. Bring the money home. Bring the leaders home. Subject Iraq and other nations which make threats to the US, whether or not they can follow through with them, to the same degree of economic and diplomatic quarantine to which we subjected the Soviet Union and it's satellites. Like any parasite, tyranny can only live so long as it has a host. Leave this host lest it infects others. Leave it to die and rot and let it's carcass be an example to future generations if they care to look and learn.


Phaedrus
 
diplomatic and economic sanctions would have been the preferable path had the likes of france and the soviet union not undercut those efforts to line their pockets and undermine the u.s....much as we undercut the soviet union in afghanistan....unfortunately that`s the way the game is played.....

and as far as regime change goes,i see the potential for serious trouble on that issue.....i believe that the u.n. will HAVE to be a major player in any regime change in iraq..iraq has enormous debt to many countries,specifically the soviet union and france....how we can shut them out and resolve those issues,i haven`t a clue..........it may work for a while....maybe even a decade or so,if we`re really lucky....but how many democracies are their in the middle east?......can middle eastern,muslim society handle democracy with so many different factions pulling and tugging at one another with generations of hate and resentment to overcome.....at some point we`ll throw our hands up and walk away(much like lebanon)....

i`m glad saddam will be gone...i do see him as the major threat to what little stability there is in the middle east...but,in my heart,i think he`s a pimple on the proverbial elephant`s ass......i agree terrorism will not end....will this action at some point in time help to turn arab sentiment in the west`s favor?....certainly not in the short run....probably not in the long run...i can only hope...
 
>iraq has enormous debt to many countries,
>specifically the soviet union and france...
>how we can shut them out and resolve those
>issues,i haven`t a clue

Simple... France & Russia put their $$ on the wrong horse!
 
ff........
icon_wink.gif
......but,we`ve got a tough road to hoe....i hope some good can come of this....i don`t think removing saddam can be anything but good....but,that`s just the tip of the iceberg....
 

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I didn't even read the post on this thread just the title.

"A Non-Anti-American.....Reason to be Opposed to Regime-Changing Wars".

God damn! Kindergardeners have better retention than you guys.

One more time, protesting this war is not anti-American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the principals of the founding fathers was that it is a civic duty to resist the government when it is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's part of the system of checks and balances. We would have been in Nam longer if it had not been for protestors. It would have taken longer to end segregation had it not been for protestors.
Aside from the fact that it is exercising 1st Amendment rights, among the most important rights of all.
 

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Kaya, not sure to which "guys" you are referring, but my title was chosen in view of the fact that virtually every anti-war iew in tis forum is beaten on as "anti-American." I am familiar with the First Amendment, thanks.

I disagree that protesting in the streets is part of a system of any system of checks and balances advocated by grown-ups, but I would say the same thing about the Vietnamese Conflict or years of Jim Crow laws.

Maybe next time read the post, and not just the title. Kindergarteners have longer attention spans than that.


Phaedrus
 

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Interesting original post.

I agree with that quote, and have always wondered where the f-u-c-k is the responsibility of the occupants of a country for their government, regardless of its brutality? Who allowed that regime to slowly get into power? It doesn't happen overnight, it didn't in the 1920's/1930's Germany.

I also believe a regime change for the sake of change without a plausible threat to the interests of this country, namely national security, is none of our concern. Sure, Saddam is one brother motherhumper, but so what? So are a lot of those bastards in the totalitarian regimes. We cannot and must not think we have an obligation to the world to 'free' everyone directly - that's horseshit. But, we can encourage that in other ways, non-militaristic ways, and we should.

However, in the case of Iraq (I'll leave the Taliban for some other time, I've got to go), from what I've seen out of the UN's own mouths, that regime has never accounted for those WMDS and refused to for 12 years. That regime is sitting in the most strategically important place on earth, with over 65% of the world's oil reserves in the Middle East, and threatens not just our security but that of a region also vitally important to not just us but the world - but it is vital that we not allow the transformation of the entire ME into a playground for anti-American, brutal dictators who could control that resource. That's why we went in in 1991, not because of WMDs, but because Saddam's regime had attacked Kuwait ala Poland and was in a position to attack other countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and others. So while I think winning this war is important with respect to the WMDs, I think it just as important to remove those murderous bastards from power while we're there - doing so not only ends the war faster but gives the Iraqis a CHANCE at a better society, but not a guarantee, as they are responsible for their own future after we leave.

But regime change in and of itself, unless one of our allies had it imposed on them by an invading country, is not a reason for war, but this one was inevitable due to the actions Saddam and the regime took that, in the eyes of the US, made this situation intolerable.
 

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More than a year since I wrote this, more than two years since we claimed "victory" in Afghanistan, and the government still can't begin to get a handle on it's affairs, now calling on NATO for help with everything from anti-terrorism efforts to fighting the spread of narcotics.

Sucks to be right.


Phaedrus
 

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Phaedrus....agree with you fully on the post of April of 2003.....

....spread of narcotics will be another losing "war" for the U.S......as I have stated in past threads.....prohibition didn't work with alcohol and it won't work with drugs, either.....just kiss a few more trillion $$$ of taxpayer money away, year by year of stubborn policies that have been nothing short of a waste and absolute proven failure....
 

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Nice original post and certainly valid as a desirable policy for the US. But alas, you guys are feeling the demographic pinch democracy brings with it. It takes a high level of wisdom and intelligence to see that Phaedrus is right, but in a democracy being right is not the way to get policies implemented. You have to talk to the masses with catchy one-line slogans. All this complicated logical stuff won't cut it.

What's worse is that the lower class, who are being helped by democracy are multiplying like rabbits, while the super-intelligent folks are suffering from depression because they are forced into being altruistic and therefore not replicating their genes as much. Al Qaeda is giving us a wake up call by reminding us we need a better system than this thing called democracy.
 

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Its just geopolitics, the Iraq bit is connected to essential resources, the Vietnam bit was more geopolitical power.

And if you step back, someone else will step in.
(Like France and Russia, hint hint)

And if you're tired and bored with democracy then spend a bit of time in a place where there isn't any, to reaffirm your perspective.

As far as small libertarian enclaves are concerned, it sounds wonderful. Beautiful.
So does radical socialism.

Both have a fatal flaw, studiously avoided in the theory.

Human nature.

If we all lived in the garden of eden we could just run about with fig leaves on, and pick fruit when we were peckish.

The drugs war isn't meant to be won btw, thats just a state of mind imposed by the blurb.
There will always be a demand for substances.
Its there to reduce the effect on society as a whole.
Opium was legalised in China in the 19th century(opium war/s), so if you ever wondered what the effects of legalised drugs can do to a society its a handy practical reference.

If you're THAT pissed off you can always opt out of society and start up your own commune with like minded people.
The sooner the better though, the population of planet earth is meant to double to 12 billion in the next 50 years...

[This message was edited by eek on June 15, 2004 at 10:31 PM.]
 

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eek....when you wrote "Its there to reduce the effect on society as a whole"....when one looks at the drug trade and sees the effects:

A black market that inflates the price of a product that is subsequently untaxed....

The price of that product leading to increased criminal activity to support a habit of such...

Increased profits and a source of income for organized crime and gangs.....

Increased murders due to gang wars and people within the drug trade because of the profits brought in....

Increased cost to taxpayers supporting DEA agents and police officers, judges and lawyers connected to the prosecution end of...

Increased costs to taxpayers to house more criminals jailed under drug offenses....

Releasing other criminals with murder, rape, and robbery backgrounds to incarcerate drug offenders.....

Increased bribery and corruption of public officials by the drug community to ply thier trade....also untaxed....

Increased criminal activity by people convicted of drug offenses because of thier subsequent record and inability to find employment...

Trillions of dollars have been spent trying to eradicate something that is obviously here to stay......not only has that money been spent, but an incredible amount of money has been lost driving it underground where it remains untaxed....

Instead of seeing a system that dictates that a habitual drug user resort to a life of crime to support a habit requiring hundreds of dollars a week, is it too much to ask to legalize it, regulate it, tax it......not only do you save billions of dollars a year in enforcement, but also ease the taxpayer some burden by creating another taxable enterprise......

People don't stand around on the street corner selling alcohol, because it's available and legal and rather inexpensive......the same cannot be said of drugs...

Turn the drug trade into a regulated industry with reasonable prices, then that drug user that spends hundreds a week doesn't have to resort to crime to support a $40 a week habit....

If anything the bad effects on society have been generated by the mere fact that it is illegal.....
 

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Phaedrus.....I agree 100% with everything in that original post. I believe you hit the nail on the head.
 

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EEK: The drugs war isn't meant to be won btw, thats just a state of mind imposed by the blurb.
There will always be a demand for substances.
Its there to reduce the effect on society as a whole.

BAR: That's what politicians purport is its (the drug war) intent.

In fact, the policy of drug Prohibition creates more immediate and also lasting problems than does controlling drugs in a legal, regulated marketplace. MARCO nicely summed up many of the reasons why this is so.

As for the notion, "Look at 19th century China as an indicator of what a legal drug market will do to a country", it can only be relevant when compared to the earlier incarnation when opium was illegal.

And neither of us has a lot of info on that, I'll bet.

One thing I can tell you for sure though, is that prior to opium being legalized in China, it was still just as much in demand as after it was legalized.

The difference is that the trade was controlled solely by criminal gangs and traders (cartels) instead of by a combination of business and government.
 

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More utterly out of touch with reality bullshi from eek.

Just for grins, I'd love to see a source on your 12 billion by 2054 figure, given the the world is facing a potentially dangerousunderpopulation problem (the so-called "Empty Cradle" syndrome.) U.N. figures forecast the world's population to peak at about 9 billion in 2070 and then start falling.


You are truly a world-class dolt.


Phaedrus
 

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icon_smile.gif

The entire subject is speculation ya muppet. The estimates change every decade or so, never mind over the next 50 to 100 years.
Doubling time has changed from 35 odd to 80 odd years, and will change again, and again, and...

Maybe if you didn't take yourself so flipping seriously...

Talk about being a humour bypass victim.
(I Bet you got it done privately too
icon_wink.gif
)

And it was all the socialists fault too
icon_rolleyes.gif
icon_rolleyes.gif
icon_rolleyes.gif


What is it about these one party "ists", be they islamists, socialists, capitalists, Facists...all the bad bits allways 'belong' to the 'bad' guys...
 

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posted by eek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The entire subject is speculation ya muppet. The estimates change every decade or so, never mind over the next 50 to 100 years.
Doubling time has changed from 35 odd to 80 odd years, and will change again, and again, and...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, you're the one who brought it up ... so when you're wrong it's not something to be taken seriously? (PS. you're wrong.) I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning there.


Phaedrus
 

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