Razz...
Maybe I'm an idiot. But facts are just facts.
Fact: A US warplane blew up a busload of civilian Syrian workers returning to Syria, to get out of harms way ...
The US military has stated over and over again, the US planes are only targeting military and not civilians. I believe this to me their intention.
But when something like this goes wrong, will General Tommy invesitgate and or punish the wrongdoers?
Now, please tell me why I'man idiot?
JC
Maybe I'm an idiot. But facts are just facts.
Fact: A US warplane blew up a busload of civilian Syrian workers returning to Syria, to get out of harms way ...
The US military has stated over and over again, the US planes are only targeting military and not civilians. I believe this to me their intention.
But when something like this goes wrong, will General Tommy invesitgate and or punish the wrongdoers?
Now, please tell me why I'man idiot?
JC
"I'm sorry i forgot you know everything and would make a fine spin doctor (liar) for Hillary in 2004."
Zero relevance, but I will say that she has not spoken of any plans to run. Ask me again in 2008.
"Why were they in iraq? You don't know do you? Okay when speaking of facts try using some of your own"
"A source identified the five as Amjad Abou Azab, Asheq al-Warrad, Abdul-Karim al-Hamdou, Ahmad Elaywi, and Salmou Hamamseh. "They were all young, apparently laborers returning home after the war started," he told Reuters."
This is what the witness said. I do not know, nor have I speculated why they were in Iraq.
Ok, don't worry I didn't forget - show me where it says that the 5 Syrian men were terrorists?
Zero relevance, but I will say that she has not spoken of any plans to run. Ask me again in 2008.
"Why were they in iraq? You don't know do you? Okay when speaking of facts try using some of your own"
"A source identified the five as Amjad Abou Azab, Asheq al-Warrad, Abdul-Karim al-Hamdou, Ahmad Elaywi, and Salmou Hamamseh. "They were all young, apparently laborers returning home after the war started," he told Reuters."
This is what the witness said. I do not know, nor have I speculated why they were in Iraq.
Ok, don't worry I didn't forget - show me where it says that the 5 Syrian men were terrorists?
"Did they forget to leave before the war started?"
Did it occur to you that if the Coalalition have taken several days to travel to Baghdad, that it might take the Syrian workers (if that's what they are) the same time to travel similiar distances?
"What kind of labor were they doing?"
I'm not sure, but Iraq and Syria are hardly properous countries. Look how many Mexicans work in various places throughout America, it's VERY possible the Syrians would similiarly travel as far as needed to work. I imagine any man would do the same to feed his family.
For the 3rd time. Where did you read that the 5 Syrian men were terrorists? Quit dodging the question.
Did it occur to you that if the Coalalition have taken several days to travel to Baghdad, that it might take the Syrian workers (if that's what they are) the same time to travel similiar distances?
"What kind of labor were they doing?"
I'm not sure, but Iraq and Syria are hardly properous countries. Look how many Mexicans work in various places throughout America, it's VERY possible the Syrians would similiarly travel as far as needed to work. I imagine any man would do the same to feed his family.
For the 3rd time. Where did you read that the 5 Syrian men were terrorists? Quit dodging the question.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey C:
But when something like this goes wrong, will General Tommy invesitgate and or punish the wrongdoers?
Now, please tell me why I'man idiot?
JC<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry you'll get your scapegoat Joey. The military has no problem appeasing the public with a culprit. Just ask those pilots that were recently courtmarshaled in the Canadian friendly fire accident in Afganistan
But when something like this goes wrong, will General Tommy invesitgate and or punish the wrongdoers?
Now, please tell me why I'man idiot?
JC<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry you'll get your scapegoat Joey. The military has no problem appeasing the public with a culprit. Just ask those pilots that were recently courtmarshaled in the Canadian friendly fire accident in Afganistan
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radiofreecostarica
Yeah. What a shame that people like this exist. After all, why do we need to PROVE guilt?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, let me just say that if I'm ever arrested and put on trial for any serious crime and I'm guilty as hell, you have an open invitation to be the jury foreman. It's people like you that make the Johnie Cochrans of the world look like geniouses. Try visiting reality sometimes Frenchie... the weather is fine.
Yeah. What a shame that people like this exist. After all, why do we need to PROVE guilt?
"Wow, let me just say that if I'm ever arrested and put on trial for any serious crime and I'm guilty as hell"
Isn't that's the purpose of the justice system that you just denounced?
Isn't that's the purpose of the justice system that you just denounced?
Sure folks, with the Republican Guard moving towards our troops there's going to be some hot-shot pilot out there intentionally firing a missle at a rickety old bus in the desert. You probably believe that too.
The story I heard (and makes the most sense) was that the target was a bridge and the bus did not come into view until after the missle was fired. Still tragic of course but an accident.
If we were specifically targetting civilians, then why aren't the B-52's just carpet-bombing Baghdad, Dresden-style? It would be a heck of a lot cheaper and quicker.
The story I heard (and makes the most sense) was that the target was a bridge and the bus did not come into view until after the missle was fired. Still tragic of course but an accident.
If we were specifically targetting civilians, then why aren't the B-52's just carpet-bombing Baghdad, Dresden-style? It would be a heck of a lot cheaper and quicker.
15 MORE civilians killed by ... (missiles or bombs) [awaiting confirmation confirming the source of the strike]
http://www.clarin.com/diario/hoy/um/m-536032.htm
Los aliados atacaron un mercado en Bagdad: 15 civiles muertos
Dos misiles cayeron sobre una zona residencial de la capital iraquí.
(15 civilians were killed today in Baghdad after 2 missiles were fired into a residential area)
[This message was edited by lander on 03-26-03 at 05:53 PM.]
http://www.clarin.com/diario/hoy/um/m-536032.htm
Los aliados atacaron un mercado en Bagdad: 15 civiles muertos
Dos misiles cayeron sobre una zona residencial de la capital iraquí.
(15 civilians were killed today in Baghdad after 2 missiles were fired into a residential area)
[This message was edited by lander on 03-26-03 at 05:53 PM.]
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Obviously I can't read the article but the US claims it wasn't theirs so you (and that paper) seem to be more eager to believe the Iraqis than the US when no logical reasoning backs their claims up.
I say again, why not just carpet-bomb?
It may have happened but there's no evidence of it other than an explosion in Baghdad and the Iraqi Information Minisrty crying foul.
The fact that people like you are so happy to accept Iraqi propaganda to support your anti-war views actually may contribute to the deaths of inncoent civillians. Did you ever think about that?
It's working out for the Iraqi's so from their point of view, they should keep killing their own because the anti-war crowd is loving every minute of it.
I say again, why not just carpet-bomb?
It may have happened but there's no evidence of it other than an explosion in Baghdad and the Iraqi Information Minisrty crying foul.
The fact that people like you are so happy to accept Iraqi propaganda to support your anti-war views actually may contribute to the deaths of inncoent civillians. Did you ever think about that?
It's working out for the Iraqi's so from their point of view, they should keep killing their own because the anti-war crowd is loving every minute of it.
Lander: it may well be - but I don't know that for a fact yet. Do you? Also, you know that the policy of the coalition is not to target civilians while you know that couldn't matter less to this sadistic regime - please, by all means, hunt down and post the accounts of the Iraqi civilians killed directly by Saddam's butcher boys as either human shields or in the act of surrendering or repression during this war - it would be most enlightening.
Please, be sure to post all of the individual civilian casualty claims, and we will continue to post the regimes' atrocities and violations: a good division of work.
----------------------------------
WASHINGTON — U.S. military officials on Wednesday denied targeting a residential section of Baghdad where Iraqis say an American missile killed 14 people.
Asked about U.S. casualties in the war so far, the officials said at a Pentagon news conference that 24 Americans have been killed and 19 wounded and that they would soon supply the number of missing and captured. Officials had refused to give casualty numbers earlier.
Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal said U.S. forces did not specifically aim at the northern Baghdad community of Al-Shaab, "nor were any bombs and missiles fired" there. American-led forces did target Iraqi missiles and launchers very close to homes in another neighborhood nowhere near Al-Shaab, but could not say whether the weapons used might have gone astray, officials said.
"We do know for a fact that something landed in the Shaab district," McChrystal said. "But we do not know if it was U.S. or Iraqi. We do know that we did not target anything in the vicinity of the (Al-Shaab) district."
Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said Iraq had placed missile launchers as close as 300 feet from residents' homes and that was "a sign of the brutality of this regime and how little they care about civilians."
Clarke said that U.S. war strategists had gone to great lengths to craft precision strikes on military targets in order to keep casualties low. "Any casualty that occurs, any death that occurs, is a direct result of Saddam Hussein's policies," she said.
McChrystal said since the start of the war, the United States had launched more than 600 Tomahawk missiles and 4,300 precision-guided weapons. More than 250,000 U.S. troops and 40,000 troops from other countries are deployed, he said.
Also for the first time, the officials said there were several hundred U.S. special forces in the north of Iraq, a part of the country that has received relatively less attention and where much less is known about U.S. efforts.
In the south, soldiers are making their way toward Baghdad, clearing out pockets of resistance along the way — including from the Fedayeen Saddam, a militia that has been rallying other Iraqi forces to fight and in some case reportedly keeping them from surrendering.
The unexpected level of resistance and battering sandstorms are creating a drag on troops headed to Baghdad, where Saddam and his regime are expected to make their last stand, said officials at the Pentagon and the U.S. military command center in Qatar.
Storms grounded scores of coalition aircraft Tuesday, blinded the array of electronic eyes needed to target Iraq and were gumming up guns, breaking down engines and generally slowing a military campaign designed for speed.
The Fedayeen — which means "those ready to sacrifice themselves for Saddam" — are accused of organizing such battlefield ruses as posing as civilians and faking surrenders in order to ambush invading forces.
Intelligence officials say there could be 30,000 to 60,000 of them, with chapters assigned to each Iraqi province to assure loyalty to Saddam. Other militia groups, including from Saddam's Baath Party, also are operating, and some have been captured, officials said.
Rather than racing toward Baghdad as they have in the last few days, Marines on Wednesday slowed their advance, opting to send patrols out from their convoys to take out mortar nests and other enemy targets.
One Defense Department official said commanders were surprised by the capability of the Fedayeen, another by its brutality in forcing regular Iraqi army troops to fight. Another official said the group has shown tenacity and that it was expected that it would present the biggest problem in Baghdad rather than in the south.
Meanwhile, the Air Force used an experimental bomb to try to knock out Iraq's state-run television. Officials declined to describe the weapon, though they have said in recent months that they were developing a bomb that would emit an electromagnetic pulse to disrupt computers, communications and other equipment.
Also in the package of strikes were Tomahawk cruise missiles and other precision-guided bombs. Television broadcast were back on the air about eight hours later.
Officials expressed caution about a report that some of the soldiers from a maintenance unit captured over the weekend were executed as they attempted to surrender.
Officials said they had one report and that they were looking into it. Five from the unit were shown on Iraqi television as prisoners of war.
Defense officials also revised to 350 the number of Iraqi forces killed in fierce fighting Tuesday for a key Euphrates River crossing about 90 miles south of Baghdad. The number had been widely estimated Tuesday at more than 150 Iraqi fighters and possibly as many as 500. No American casualties were reported from the battle, which pitted an American armored division against Iraqi infantry.
Please, be sure to post all of the individual civilian casualty claims, and we will continue to post the regimes' atrocities and violations: a good division of work.
----------------------------------
WASHINGTON — U.S. military officials on Wednesday denied targeting a residential section of Baghdad where Iraqis say an American missile killed 14 people.
Asked about U.S. casualties in the war so far, the officials said at a Pentagon news conference that 24 Americans have been killed and 19 wounded and that they would soon supply the number of missing and captured. Officials had refused to give casualty numbers earlier.
Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal said U.S. forces did not specifically aim at the northern Baghdad community of Al-Shaab, "nor were any bombs and missiles fired" there. American-led forces did target Iraqi missiles and launchers very close to homes in another neighborhood nowhere near Al-Shaab, but could not say whether the weapons used might have gone astray, officials said.
"We do know for a fact that something landed in the Shaab district," McChrystal said. "But we do not know if it was U.S. or Iraqi. We do know that we did not target anything in the vicinity of the (Al-Shaab) district."
Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said Iraq had placed missile launchers as close as 300 feet from residents' homes and that was "a sign of the brutality of this regime and how little they care about civilians."
Clarke said that U.S. war strategists had gone to great lengths to craft precision strikes on military targets in order to keep casualties low. "Any casualty that occurs, any death that occurs, is a direct result of Saddam Hussein's policies," she said.
McChrystal said since the start of the war, the United States had launched more than 600 Tomahawk missiles and 4,300 precision-guided weapons. More than 250,000 U.S. troops and 40,000 troops from other countries are deployed, he said.
Also for the first time, the officials said there were several hundred U.S. special forces in the north of Iraq, a part of the country that has received relatively less attention and where much less is known about U.S. efforts.
In the south, soldiers are making their way toward Baghdad, clearing out pockets of resistance along the way — including from the Fedayeen Saddam, a militia that has been rallying other Iraqi forces to fight and in some case reportedly keeping them from surrendering.
The unexpected level of resistance and battering sandstorms are creating a drag on troops headed to Baghdad, where Saddam and his regime are expected to make their last stand, said officials at the Pentagon and the U.S. military command center in Qatar.
Storms grounded scores of coalition aircraft Tuesday, blinded the array of electronic eyes needed to target Iraq and were gumming up guns, breaking down engines and generally slowing a military campaign designed for speed.
The Fedayeen — which means "those ready to sacrifice themselves for Saddam" — are accused of organizing such battlefield ruses as posing as civilians and faking surrenders in order to ambush invading forces.
Intelligence officials say there could be 30,000 to 60,000 of them, with chapters assigned to each Iraqi province to assure loyalty to Saddam. Other militia groups, including from Saddam's Baath Party, also are operating, and some have been captured, officials said.
Rather than racing toward Baghdad as they have in the last few days, Marines on Wednesday slowed their advance, opting to send patrols out from their convoys to take out mortar nests and other enemy targets.
One Defense Department official said commanders were surprised by the capability of the Fedayeen, another by its brutality in forcing regular Iraqi army troops to fight. Another official said the group has shown tenacity and that it was expected that it would present the biggest problem in Baghdad rather than in the south.
Meanwhile, the Air Force used an experimental bomb to try to knock out Iraq's state-run television. Officials declined to describe the weapon, though they have said in recent months that they were developing a bomb that would emit an electromagnetic pulse to disrupt computers, communications and other equipment.
Also in the package of strikes were Tomahawk cruise missiles and other precision-guided bombs. Television broadcast were back on the air about eight hours later.
Officials expressed caution about a report that some of the soldiers from a maintenance unit captured over the weekend were executed as they attempted to surrender.
Officials said they had one report and that they were looking into it. Five from the unit were shown on Iraqi television as prisoners of war.
Defense officials also revised to 350 the number of Iraqi forces killed in fierce fighting Tuesday for a key Euphrates River crossing about 90 miles south of Baghdad. The number had been widely estimated Tuesday at more than 150 Iraqi fighters and possibly as many as 500. No American casualties were reported from the battle, which pitted an American armored division against Iraqi infantry.
"Lander: it may well be - but I don't know that for a fact yet. Do you? Also, you know that the policy of the coalition is not to target civilians while you know that couldn't matter less to this sadistic regime "
Nowhere did I say or imply that the US target or for that matter even shot those missiles. I posted a news article & translated it for our non-spanish speaking friends & Outandup.
Your post seems a bit defensive, don't you think?
Nowhere did I say or imply that the US target or for that matter even shot those missiles. I posted a news article & translated it for our non-spanish speaking friends & Outandup.
Your post seems a bit defensive, don't you think?
Point taken. I thought I had edited that.
As far as I know there has been no confirmation from any side on where those missiles came from, but common sense would conclude that they were Coalition missiles.
I say this because today's Penatgon briefing said that the Iraqis had fired 10 missiles so far & that all were fired into Kuwait. They didn't say anything about 8 into Kuwait & 2 into Baghdad.
As far as I know there has been no confirmation from any side on where those missiles came from, but common sense would conclude that they were Coalition missiles.
I say this because today's Penatgon briefing said that the Iraqis had fired 10 missiles so far & that all were fired into Kuwait. They didn't say anything about 8 into Kuwait & 2 into Baghdad.
lander: yup, I was responding to that first statement where it appeared you were stating a fact - okay.
I saw the Pentagon briefing and they made it clear they did not know, that they had not targeted that district, and that they were still trying to find out - but they also pointed out that the Iraqis have been firing anti-aircraft guns and surface-to-air missiles, so until they knew what happened, they could not say for sure. They did NOT say categorically that it wasn't a US bomb or missile that went off-course, they DID deny targeting that area or civilians in particular and they did say they are still investigating.
I saw the Pentagon briefing and they made it clear they did not know, that they had not targeted that district, and that they were still trying to find out - but they also pointed out that the Iraqis have been firing anti-aircraft guns and surface-to-air missiles, so until they knew what happened, they could not say for sure. They did NOT say categorically that it wasn't a US bomb or missile that went off-course, they DID deny targeting that area or civilians in particular and they did say they are still investigating.
Ok, we're on the same page here.
Until we get some confirmation I'll edit my post.
Until we get some confirmation I'll edit my post.
hno:
