100% Convinced

[Kruser6]

I have been playing depositing 1000 for the last few months since December to recieve Party Poker's $200 bonus. For the first three months I got absolutly ridiculously good hands all the way until I recieved my bonus. As soon as I cleared the bonus all three times I would pull out the 1,200 plus about 100 profit from playing and leave an extra 100 to play when I got bored. The absolute minute that I pulled the money the cards went bad and I lost the 100 in the next 3 hours. Now I have never believed in these sites being rigged even after all of that, but I really do feel like they are after I deposited money this month. I did my normal thing, I deposited 1000 and started playing. I have so far lost 120 and had a 2% win percentage through the first 500 hands out of 1500. This is ridiculous due to the fact that I play incredibly tight and 4 table it.

It almost seemed like they knew that I was just going to pull the money again and they decided to not to let me win the bonus this time. I know this is just sounds like just another stupid accusation, but I have played over 20,000 hands of poker and I have never once seen the cards come out the way they have in these last 5-600.

So let the bashing begin, but go ahead and deposit money your first time at Party poker and just tell me how good of hands you get!! I guarentee you will understand!!

 

[CHOPTALK]

My first deposit was great, its been downhill ever since.

 

[Kruser6]

I am fully convinced it is set-up like that. Think about it, if you deposited $50 in and you lost it all right away, how likely are you to deposit another 50 vs someone who won lets say 75, and then lost it all?

Its as simple as this, the more people that deposit money, the more full tables and the more profit for Party Poker.

 

[CHOPTALK]

If your right, you can open up a bunch of email accounts and po boxes,make a deposit win your money then open another account one after after the other over and over again.

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

its the same way at intertops (a party poker clone). they can no doubt put you on a do not win list and you will see handfuls of crap over and over...you make a withdrawal and all you see are 4 card flushes on the flop that never get made, 4 card straights like a muther and dont even think about goin allin with a full house on the flop cus i promise you someone has 4of akind just witing 4 ya.


but thats old news....my newest conspiracy theory? BODOG is flat out rigged!! there are IMO people at the table who not only can see your cards they also can see whats coming next....ive seen articles written by rob g. where he says flat out they dont want winning players in the sportbook and post late lines and put out screwy numbers just to make sure no sharps play there....if they are screwing players in the sportsbook its only natural that something they can rig like poker software is set to do the same thing..this one book that has rapidly ascended to the top of my **** list! bookmakers that need to increase their natural house advantage in order to win are just plain scum.....thats you rob g.

 

[PatPatriot]

I'll never play online again.
Anytime you bet aggresivley they stick it up your ass,no question.

 

[theswami]

I have been playing depositing 1000 for the last few months since December to recieve Party Poker's $200 bonus. For the first three months I got absolutly ridiculously good hands all the way until I recieved my bonus. As soon as I cleared the bonus all three times I would pull out the 1,200 plus about 100 profit from playing and leave an extra 100 to play when I got bored. The absolute minute that I pulled the money the cards went bad and I lost the 100 in the next 3 hours. Now I have never believed in these sites being rigged even after all of that, but I really do feel like they are after I deposited money this month. I did my normal thing, I deposited 1000 and started playing. I have so far lost 120 and had a 2% win percentage through the first 500 hands out of 1500. This is ridiculous due to the fact that I play incredibly tight and 4 table it.

It almost seemed like they knew that I was just going to pull the money again and they decided to not to let me win the bonus this time. I know this is just sounds like just another stupid accusation, but I have played over 20,000 hands of poker and I have never once seen the cards come out the way they have in these last 5-600.

So let the bashing begin, but go ahead and deposit money your first time at Party poker and just tell me how good of hands you get!! I guarentee you will understand!!

I'm not going to get into why the game is probably not rigged it can be a waste of energy to do so since we do not know. So let's deal with what we know, there are only two things to say:

1) If you think it is rigged you should stop playing.

2) In the other thread you posted your "bad beats," you should examine your own play before you start accusing the sites of rigging the game.

- You had AK and didn't raise so you didn't put the most money in the pot when you had the best hand.

- You had 66, which a good player would never play in the position you were in and if he did he would probably raise with it. You flopped your set then decided to slow play it. When you did decide to play your hand and raise you had the worst hand. So you put the most money into the pot when you had the worst of it.


It is possible that the sites rig the game. The best thing about your post is that you have also posted a few of your played hands where we can see that your play is not optimal. It is likely that you had a nice run of cards that won. Now that the cards are not running so good you are losing.

It's not a bash but fact that your play is sub-optimal yet you claim the game is fixed. I wonder what the hands are like that you have not shown us?

 

[QuickLearner]

Kruzer6, a couple of points...

When Party has one of these 20% reloads the WORLD takes advantage of it. So, for the next seven days there are a ton of mediocre players trying to get 1400 raked hands in. That seems to me to be a recipe for a "bad-beat-athon." A zillion players who don't know enough to fold on time.

Try this next time. Wait until the last minute to make your deposit and then take your time clearing it. By the time you get there most of the other bonus whores (and I mean that in the nicest possible way...) will already be out of your way. All you have to do is be able to compete with the regulars. But "...play[ing] incredibly tight and 4 table[ing] it." may not be the best strategy to follow.

Also Kruzer6, 20,000 hands is a very small sample. I play that many every couple of weeks. I'm a winning player and I have had one 17-day losing/breakeven streak in the last 6 months.

If you are losing why in the world are you 4-tabling? To clear a bonus? Drop down to 1 or 2 and get your confidence back. You may need to drop down a level as well. Do what you need to do.

Swami's right...quit if you think it's rigged. By the way, it isn't. You think they care for 1 minute whether you take your money out? You think you're winning money from them rather than from the other players? They don't, and you're not.

Why not post some hands for discussion? I, for one, will be happy to contribute my 2 cents. That is, if you want it. :discuss:

 

[EarlySpeed]

Kruser6

If you truly believe that sites are rigged and have a "no win" list--there is a simple solution....

Become a prop player. Surely if they want you to succeed they will put you on the "win" list.

 

[Da\'FishMan]

I have played at partypoker and pokerstars quite a bit in the last 6 months. I am mainy a tourney player and occasionally I will play a ring game. I mostly play omaha hi-lo 8 or better. I play the 10 people ring tourney and the multi's. I do not believe that the site is rigged in any way, shape or form. I have withdrawn many times and continue to build my bankroll.


I will say that cards go bad online just as they do in live poker. I am an excellent player (according to my cashouts) and if I do not cash in 3 consecutive tourneys, meanign, 1st, 2nd or 3rd, and no matter the tourney buy in, I will stop playing for that day, so I do not think that the cards are rigged in that sense, just my string of bad days that you will encounter playing poker. Everyone has bad beats and we all know you dont win everyday in anything consistently.

If cards are bad, take a break come back the next day or so, works for me, if you push it, just like in sports gambling, we all know you can go south verym, very fast.....

 

[cd329]

Guys its all generated by computers and if you dont think the owners of these sites arent messing with the numbers then you need some help.
I would bet every penny i have that the house has a seat and every game on these sites and you will never know it.
all you hear is about how all these professional guys got their starts on internet sites, but there no way of knowing if these guys that were picked werent really associated with the sites.
Anything you cant see in person, how can you really trust, i mean come on, the owners of all these sportsbooks want to win our money and if you dont believe they would cheat to get it, then i say keep gambling there.
I think the best way to play on these poker sites is by getting a room for just you and your buddies, with no strangers, then you arent gonna get cheated, they will just earn their rake.

 

[QuickLearner]

The rake earned by the site varies between 3 and 5 big bets per 100 hands at the lower limits. A really good player may average from 1.5 to 3 BB/100 over the long haul. The only person that the site has at the table is the dealer. Don't confuse sportsbooks with poker site operations; they don't run on the same model.

If you think the fix is in, don't play. You're wrong, but nobody will be able to change your mind. If you were a winning player would you feel the same way?

 

[HinesWard86]

i play poker on bet365 and although i am a winning player, i do believe that occasionally some of this stuff is rigged. For instance, most regular players who play on bet365 and other poker sites will tell you that underdogs win a greater % of hands there than at most other sites. Also, we have seen sites rig things like online roulette and online blackjack, so why wouldn't they try to rig poker? But although I do believe these sites are rigged, I will continue to play because I still win more often than not.

 

[QuickLearner]

I should just give up, but I'm not ready quite yet. I've heard many times, "Be careful what you ask for..." and so I hear from a winning player who thinks online poker is rigged. Okay. The least I can do is try to respond.

By the way cd329, my crack about a winning player was out of line and I appologise.

Okay Brownsfan, let's talk. I may write some things that you know perfectly well but I'm not writing to you personally, I'm also writing to others who may be interested in my response to a winning player who feels that online poker is rigged. So bear with me...

i play poker on bet365 and although i am a winning player, i do believe that occasionally some of this stuff is rigged. For instance, most regular players who play on bet365 and other poker sites will tell you that underdogs win a greater % of hands there than at most other sites.

Bet365 is a skin for a poker network called Prima. There are about 20 different portals like B365 all feeding players to the same tables. Most nights there are 5000 to 8000 players online so they aren't a very big operation. But they are interesting; the biggest pot I ever saw in a 10-person cash game was on Prima. It was a hand of straight Omaha that went over $25,000. Real money, not tournament chips. Prima is based in Europe so it's one of the two networks I play in between noon and 6pm EST. The other is the Cryptologic network. And occasionally Doylesroom, part of another Eurpoean network.

Bored yet? All that was so I could say this: Most regular Prima players will certainly not say that it is rigged. If you could somehow find a whole bunch who all came in from B365 you would be talking to sports bettors who are there to kill time. Maybe that group might be finding monsters under the bed, but the regulars wouldn't agree.

Now, on to your 'underdogs win a greater % of hands' point for a little (hopefully) painless math. In a 10-person ring game, before the cards are dealt everybody has a 10% chance of winning the hand, or we all have a 10% equity in the pot no matter how much it might grow to contain.. We're all dogs at that point.

You're answer might be, "I know that, you idiot. I mean that when I get pocket aces or another big pair I don't win because idiots like you refuse to fold." I keep records, so here are my stats:

Over the last 20,000 hands I've been dealt AA ninety-six times. That's about average. I should get AA about 0.45% of the time; my number is 0.48%. I won 72.92% of those hands with an average net profit of 3.01 big bets per hand.

For the sake of argument let's identify my really strong starting hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKsuited, AKoffsuit, and AQsuited. Over the same period here's how I've done with these hands: I've been dealt these hands (in total) 711 times. I should be dealt one of these eight hands about 3.64% of the time; my number is 3.56%; about right again. I've won those pots 54.85% for a net profit (on average) of 1.26 big bets per hand.

If you use a program such as Pokerstove to run the odds you'll find that AA has about a 31% chance of winning against 9 random hands. I am an underdog and I have the best possible hand. You shouldn't be surprised if you don't win. You are the underdog! The "worst of the best," TT, wins about 17% of the time against 9 random hands. Here are the results from Pokerstove. I just ran them while I was typing:

--
106,878 games 263.485 secs 405 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.7169 % [ 00.31 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 07.6473 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 07.6885 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 07.6945 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 07.6417 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 07.6548 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 07.7313 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 07.6722 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 9: 07.7769 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 10: 07.7759 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { random }

---

---
121,121 games 305.266 secs 396 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 16.9775 % [ 00.17 00.00 ] { TT }
Hand 2: 09.3105 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 09.1953 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 09.1627 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 09.1943 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 6: 09.1282 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 7: 09.1962 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 8: 09.2384 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 9: 09.2909 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 10: 09.3061 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { random }

---

How do I explain my better-than-average results? Because it's rigged. No, actually because I raise every one of those hands pre-flop and knock out about 2/3 of my random opponenets on the spot. If you limp in, you will get beaten more than your share.

At this point we could go off os a very interesting strategy tangent. Here's the 15 second version: When you get one of these hands, raise pre-flop. Every freakin' time. Why? Because you have much better than the 10% equity you all started with. Stop worrying about whether some bleephead will hang around to beat you. They will...most of the time, but you'll make more when you win than you'll lose all those other times.

I shouldn't be telling you all this because I want to beat you, but as Dennis Hopper used to say, "I love you man."

Also, we have seen sites rig things like online roulette and online blackjack, so why wouldn't they try to rig poker?

Because they are making a killing on the rake we all pay at the poker tables, and to cheat the players would kill the golden goose. By the way casino games all have a house edge, so in a sense they are all rigged.

But although I do believe these sites are rigged, I will continue to play because I still win more often than not.

Scoreboard, baby!

 

[Kruser6]

you guys are all right. I know its not rigged, it is just an easy excuse to make when you get a real bad beat. They were just coming one after another on all four tables and I was frustrated so I made a post to vent!!

Very good points by all of you and thanks for the responses.

Swami, I understand my poker skills are not great, but I do believe that they are better then a lot of people out there. I have played enough to understand that game a lot, but I do know that I have room for improvement. I do still feel that playing any pocket pair is good poker no matter what you say though. Those small pocket pairs can be very profitable. Anyways, just wanted to thank all of you for the responses. I ended up winning towards the end and i cashed out 1,160 so I only ended up being down 40 at the end of it, but I won $160 bonus!!!

 

[HinesWard86]

Okay........I understand the post above Quick, but frankly that's not what I'm talking about. Yes, of course, if you played against everyone with pocket aces, you would lose most of the time. Also, you talk about having pocket aces though like everyone is playing. Truth is at least on bet365 only about 40-45% people call the BB, so before the flop you are above a 50% favorite to take about. Now, there is no doubt that everyone has their share of bad beats, that's not exactly what I'm talking about. Nor am I going to claim that a site is rigged just because certain people seem to win a lot more than they lose, those players are just better. What I'm saying is in my experiences with bet365 against those of Pokerroom and your standard Friday night game with your buddies, I have found that there is a greater preponderance of flush draws and people getting rivered. I have also noticed that bad hands beat these solid hands more often than they should. I do not have %'s or numbers to back this up because I am not a record keeper and frankly don't see the need for keeping data of previous hands. I just urge you to go try bet365 poker and see what you think.

On a related note, I asked a computer programmer friend of mine how easy it would be to rig it and he said it would be quite easy to do. Just ask yourself, after hearing all these stories on this site about backhanded books stiffing players, changing odds during the bet, and all this other shiat, would it really surprise you that books did rig poker? Not me

 

[QuickLearner]

Thanks for the response brownsfan. I've read your post a couple of times, and here are a few ideas for you to think about.

What I'm saying is in my experiences with bet365 against those of Pokerroom and your standard Friday night game with your buddies, I have found that there is a greater preponderance of flush draws and people getting rivered.

I see, you are saying that Bet365 is rigged in comparison to Pokerroom and your home game. Nope. Live play is so much slower than online it may seem to you that you are seeing more suckouts online. But Bet365 vs. Pokerroom? Nope.

I just urge you to go try bet365 poker and see what you think.

Please allow me to quote someone whose opinion I have always valued: me. "Bet365 is a skin for a poker network called Prima. Prima is based in Europe so it's one of the two networks I play in between noon and 6pm EST." I have played there...a ton. I spent quite a bit of time explaining what I think. You missed it.

Also, you talk about having pocket aces though like everyone is playing. Truth is at least on bet365 only about 40-45% people call the BB, so before the flop you are above a 50% favorite to take about.

You have a point Typically there are 3-5 people seeing the flop. My purpose for using 9 random hands was to show a 10-person ring game condition and demonstrate pre-flop equity. Let's try this: Let's assume that I have AA and I have four opponents (with reasonable starting hands) seeing the flop with me: opponent 1 is playing KQsuited, opp 2 is playing a pair of 9s, opp 3 is playing QToffsuit (he's the fish, right?), and opp 4 is playing JTsuited. Pulling out ol' Pokerstove, we run 3.3 billion sims:

---
3,307,397,184 games 39.671 secs 83,370,653 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.6575 % [ 00.58 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 11.4495 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { KQs }
Hand 3: 14.4630 % [ 00.14 00.00 ] { 99 }
Hand 4: 05.2441 % [ 00.05 00.00 ] { QTo }
Hand 5: 11.1859 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { JTs }

---

I'm a 57.7% favorite. Althought it does also mean that I'll get beat almost half the time it's the reason I told you to raise big pairs every time. Now let's have some fun: Assume the flop comes down 8c, Td, 7d. Not too scary for Mr. AA, right? Here Pokerstove:

---
1,440,504 games 1.313 secs 1,097,108 games/sec
Board: 8c Td 7d
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.1330 % [ 00.45 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 10.8150 % [ 00.11 00.00 ] { KQs } [not KQ diamonds necessarily. If yes, he's only 1.86:1 to catch his flush]
Hand 3: 27.6503 % [ 00.28 00.00 ] { 99 } [open ended straight draw; 10 outs to beat me. He's not folding}
Hand 4: 07.8872 % [ 00.07 00.00 ] { QTo } [even with the pair, as dead as Julius Caesar]
Hand 5: 08.5145 % [ 00.08 00.00 ] { JTs } [not JT of diamonds obviously]

---

Now I'm a dog to the field, aren't I. And all four can make an argument for playing on. Another possible chapter in The Book of Bad Beat Legends. Here's where we start discussing pot odds, implied odds, and pot equity.

I am not a record keeper and frankly don't see the need for keeping data of previous hands.

You're probably lucky. I worry about the IRS, not whether poker sites are fixed.

I asked a computer programmer friend of mine how easy it would be to rig it

Meh. Easy? I don't know. Fatal? Yes. If you cheat your customers you go out of business. Your comparison to sports books doesn't make sense to me.
Unless you're saying sports books fix the sports games you bet on..and that doesn't make sense to me either. I don't know of any book other than Bodog that operates their own poker site, and I don't play there mainly because they have very few players. I've seen VIP Poker as well, but I don't know if it is a portal to a network.

 

[HinesWard86]

I am not implying that sports books rig games, but they have been known to change odds on bets and stiffing players. Those are two completely different things. For instance, Sports InterAction was the book I first started using. Now that book is notorious for not paying high rollers for weeks, if you read around this site, theyve done it to a number of people. Also, SIA has changed odds in midstream with bets before. For example, there was a prop bet on there about will an unseeded player win Wimbledon (I think it was Wimbledon, I remember it being a major). At the start of the tournament the prop paid 32-1. Now Mark Phillipousis was an unseeded player and ended up making the finals. SIA claimed that they didnt know Phillipousis was an unseeded player and changed the odds of an unseeded player to win the major to 8-1. This was after people had already bet it and it caused quite a stir by changing the odds in people's accounts. Even though Phillipousis lost, this was an amazing thing for a book to do. My logic is that if a book would do this, and it's so easy to do, than why wouldnt they perhaps rig a couple of hands?

 

[ComputerGuru]

I play a few times a week at Party. What I have noticed is that the game is extremely streakly. I will place in 5 or 6 tournaments in a row and then go bust in about 5 or 6 in a row. You have to stop when the bad streak starts. I take a couple of days off and the winning seems to come back most of the time.

I find it hard to believe that the games are rigged, because they are making money on every thing they do. They have guaranteed income. It's not like an online casino where the Player has to lose for the house to win.

 

[RPM]

kruser,

almost sounds like you were bonus whoring. perhaps you gave yourself some bad karma...